Author Topic: Texas man shoots driver in car  (Read 1932 times)

MillCreek

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just Warren

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2021, 03:07:54 PM »
Did he have to engage at all?

Why move-to-contact?

The car was leaving.

Did he close because he thought the driver was a threat?

If you think the driver is a threat, why close?

Claims he saw a gun, none was found.

Maybe if he'd not gotten so close he wouldn't have imagined a gun.

The best way to avoid a shooting is to not put yourself in a position where it might happen.

Taking another tack...

In past situations it's been claimed that, in certain circumstances, a moving car is a threat and you have a right to defend yourself.

Is a car moving away from you a threat? Regardless of which way it's pointed?

A moving car can certainly be considered a threat but what if you positioned yourself in way that it is? Does that give or remove any legal cover for you?

If, say, you stay on your porch and the car drives across the lawn at you, then sure that's a threat. But if you move to a point where you're touching it or in it's line-of-travel and it moves in way that could harm you, can you claim it's a threat when you put yourself in harm's way?
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2021, 03:09:53 PM »
Quote
Claims he saw a gun, none was found

That usually works for cops so....

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HankB

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2021, 03:16:59 PM »
According to the local news, the car was sitting in the guy's driveway with the driver behind the wheel - which sounds like a very minor instance of trespassing at worst. Going outside to confront him and shooting as the guy is driving away sounds like the wrong thing to do. If there was a suspicious car parked in MY driveway, I'd be inclined - STRONGLY inclined - to call the police instead of going out to confront whoever it was.

Unless there's something else NOT reported in the news, I think the homeowner has some pretty big legal challenges ahead of him.
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dogmush

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2021, 03:38:34 PM »
If I saw a car parked in my driveway,  I'd go out and see what they needed.  They could be lost, they could need help, they could be delivering me something. I'd probably bring a gun, concealed, because  I generally always have a gun.

This homeowner probably caused the driver to freak out and back away by tearing out of the house with a gun in hand. (A normally smart thing to so when someone comes at you with a gun)

There's not really a good justification for chasing down and shooting someone fleeing from you, trespasser or not.

BobR

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2021, 03:44:31 PM »

There's not really a good justification for chasing down and shooting someone fleeing from you, trespasser or not.

Good justification or not, it all comes down to the jury.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/spokane-man-acquitted-in-shooting-death-of-fleeing-thief/

bob

just Warren

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2021, 03:55:47 PM »
True, but I've no interest in being carried by six or judged by twelve.
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Pb

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2021, 04:30:07 PM »
NPR never changes.   ;/

"Such laws were meant to give legal support to people in rare self-defense instances, such as when someone defends their own property."

Brad Johnson

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2021, 04:50:50 PM »
If the guy was backing away then they're gonna have a tough time meeting the "threat of imminent serious bodily injury or death" benchmark Texas requires for use of deadly force.

Agree with Hank ... unless there are facts not being disclosed, this guy is in serious trouble.

Brad
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 09:33:54 AM by Brad Johnson »
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Boomhauer

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2021, 05:37:43 PM »
 :O People who aren’t up to no good pull into people’s driveways all the time and sit there with the lights off. It totally doesn’t look suspicious as hell.
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dogmush

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2021, 06:34:21 PM »
I have literally had people pull into my driveway,  sit there for a couple minutes digging on google maps, and then thank me for the directions I gave them when I went out to see what was up.

It's not that farfetched.

WLJ

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2021, 06:44:41 PM »
Quote
CAIR-Austin says Dghoughi "was a Moroccan national who obtained a master's degree in financial analysis from Johnson & Wales University in Rhode Island after immigrating to the U.S. in 2013."

Doesn't sound like your typical street thug to me.

But yeah, even if he was up to no good he was already leaving the scene and no longer, if he ever was, a threat
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BobR

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2021, 07:29:38 PM »
I have literally had people pull into my driveway,  sit there for a couple minutes digging on google maps, and then thank me for the directions I gave them when I went out to see what was up.

It's not that farfetched.

I had a friend in WA that had 40 or so acres. His driveway was about 250 yds long running between two alfalfa fields. He had people (kids) come into his drive fairly often to do the horizontal mambo. He would walk up on them and give them the scare of their young lives and ask them to move along. He never had to shoot anyone but I am pretty sure he was prepared to do so if the need arose. ;)

bob

Pb

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2021, 08:09:12 PM »
I've pulled into people's driveways when lost.

HankB

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2021, 08:19:14 AM »
Good justification or not, it all comes down to the jury.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/spokane-man-acquitted-in-shooting-death-of-fleeing-thief/

bob
The person shot here was a car thief who was driving away in the shooter's vehicle - which is NOT the same thing at all as in the case under discussion.
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Ben

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2021, 08:50:16 AM »
I can only comment from the information I read. To keep it simple, a vehicle accelerating away is not a threat. Certainly lights off in the driveway at zero dark thirty is very suspicious and something that should put anyone in condition orange, but I think this was handled wrong.

That said, on a tangent, it's interesting to me that in the comments here, some may think it's perfectly normal for a stranger to park in someone else's driveway to check their phone or whatever. I'm wondering if that is a regional cultural thing. Even back in CA, just pulling into somebody's driveway for something unrelated to the homeowner would be considered weird. Especially when the driver could have just parked in front of the home on the street.

The latter is considered perfectly normal and most would not bat an eye. But the ten foot difference between the street and the driveway is like the difference between somebody walking stopping on the sidewalk in front of your house vs walking up to your front door and hanging out there. Kind of a "personal space" thing. Maybe in other parts of the country people think a stranger parking in your driveway is no big deal?

This is all assuming the guy in the link has a house in a standard neighborhood with a short driveway right off the street, vs some longer road-like driveway to get to his house. Those are different situations for situational awareness. I have a nearly quarter mile "driveway". I've seen people pulled into my road just off the county road before and just figured they were checking directions or something as there is nowhere to "park" off the county road without blocking said road. I've never thought anything of it.

Once some drives all the way down that road to my house, I go into condition yellowish orange even if it turns out to be one of the local church ladies coming to pass the Word. I'm most always armed of course when outside, but during the day can generally see who is driving from a far enough distance to see if they look normal or look like a meth-head. At 0200 though, someone driving all the way down my road to the house is a clear condition orange situation. If it's someone "asking for directions" most of my neighbors are right off the county road, so why did someone decide to drive all the way down my road instead? It hasn't happened yet, but if it ever does, it's a long gun situation for me, and starts with driveway floodlights first. What happens after that depends on the person who decided to drive all the way to my house in the middle of the night. The sheriff is likely 30 minutes out. Maybe longer if my call is, "There's a strange car in my driveway" vs "Someone is trying to break into my house."
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2021, 11:21:17 AM »
In my corner of the U.S. it is not at all "normal" or acceptable for strange vehicles to pull into private driveways at oh-dark-thirty and turn off the lights. I have occasionally pulled over to the side of the street or road to answer a cell phone call, but I would never consider pulling into someone's driveway to do so.
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dogmush

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2021, 04:30:18 PM »
I wouldn't call it "normal" here, either.  Which is why I went out to see what was going on. It was definitely something out of the ordinary to be investigated,  but not all the way to "walk outside with gun drawn" if you get the distinction.

And there's  a lot of oblivious idiots in the world, so what is abnormal  to me might seem reasonable  to a lot of people.

FTR, my driveway is about 60' from road to garage door.

MechAg94

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2021, 09:11:24 AM »
In my corner of the U.S. it is not at all "normal" or acceptable for strange vehicles to pull into private driveways at oh-dark-thirty and turn off the lights. I have occasionally pulled over to the side of the street or road to answer a cell phone call, but I would never consider pulling into someone's driveway to do so.
I would agree it is not normal.  It justifies taking a closer look, taking a picture of the license plate, or a call to the police reporting a suspicious car.  It doesn't involve running after the car when it starts backing away in reverse.  The chasing after the car a short distance is the part that bugs me about it.  I can see following it to get the license plate number.

The homeowner is going to have a rough time legally.  He was outside his house which changes things a little and there was no evidence of theft going on.  Trespassing is going to be a tough sell and I have been told that alone doesn't justify pointing a gun at someone and threatening deadly force. 
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MillCreek

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2021, 09:37:36 AM »
The other thing that bugs me is the shooter claims he saw the driver with a gun.  It is zero dark thirty, the car is backing away, and the shooter is able to see into the dark car sufficiently well to see a gun?  Hmm.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2021, 10:25:20 AM »
The other thing that bugs me is the shooter claims he saw the driver with a gun.  It is zero dark thirty, the car is backing away, and the shooter is able to see into the dark car sufficiently well to see a gun?  Hmm.

He probably saw a cell phone ...
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zxcvbob

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2021, 10:31:10 AM »
It is normal to pull into a driveway to [immediately] turn around.  It's not normal to pull in and park unless you are lost and don't realize it, and are at the wrong address.  In the latter case you don't turn off the lights and sit there.  If you want to pull over and check your phone or your map, you do that at the curb.

This does not excuse the shooter.
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MechAg94

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2021, 10:49:40 AM »
He probably saw a cell phone ...
Or a reflection of his gun? 
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Ben

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2021, 10:54:14 AM »
It is normal to pull into a driveway to [immediately] turn around.

Sure. I have often done that. Mostly in rural areas where I missed a turn and where it is too dangerous to try and do a three point on a narrow road. I'll pull into the first driveway where it looks like I won't be a pain and do the three point there. Just because of my own philosophy on private property, I've never thought of stopping there pulled in to check the navigation before I go back on my way. I only use it to turn around and then either get to my right road or drive until I find a safe place to stop and reorient.
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freakazoid

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Re: Texas man shoots driver in car
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2021, 12:27:29 PM »
In the latter case you don't turn off the lights and sit there.

You do if you know you don't want to be rude and shine your bright vehicle lights into someones house at night, but need to check you phone for directions to where you are going.
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