Brit Royalty in America, again.

[SomeKid]

Am I the only one that wants to show up, and be as rude as possible to this self-righteous monarch? Seriously, this is America. It is disgusting (but not surprising) that the VA Gov is bending over for a foreign leader. Makes me want to show up, and yell at her as she walks by that she needs to work out, maybe tell her to lose some weight.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=663462007

America frets over etiquette for royal visit
EBEN HARRELL

THEIR nation was born in rebellion with the equality of all men enshrined in its founding documents. But as Americans mark the 400th anniversary of the first Britons to arrive on their shores, they are struggling with how much deference to pay the Queen on her first visit to the upstart colonies in 16 years.

Officials for Tim Kaine, the governor of Virginia, are sufficiently concerned about the etiquette of meeting the monarch that an entire page is devoted to the subject on his website.
Click to learn more...

But the same page also affirms that "there are no obligatory codes of behaviour, especially in the US - as we do not recognise the Queen as our head of nation". The state is holding a lottery to give more than 100 "commoners" front-row places for a royal walkabout.

Officials will ask winners to dress appropriately "with no 'I'm With Stupid' T-shirts etc".

Workers have been painting fences, installing lampposts and laying bricks and grass ready for the royal arrival.

The Queen will also fulfil a lifelong dream to attend the Kentucky Derby at the Churchill Downs racetrack.

Her visit will mark the 400th anniversary of Jamestown, the first permanent English colony in the United States.
DO'S

AIDES to the Queen insist the monarch understands that human interactions have changed with the times.

But committing a social faux pas in her presence can have far-reaching consequences.

At Prince William's passing-out parade at Sandhurst, Carole Middleton, the mother of William's then-girlfriend Kate, was seen chewing gum in the presence of the Queen. According to some reports, such behaviour may have played a role in the couple's eventual break-up. But Mrs Middleton's mistake was not nearly as cringe-worthy as that of the late media magnate Robert Maxwell, who once put his arm around the Queen.

While it is a generally accepted mistake, tradition holds that you should not try to shake hands with the Queen, even if she offers. Bow or curtsy instead. Further, you should never wear gloves in her presence, nor turn your back on her. Tatler's advice is "you may not shake the Queen's hand, only touch it briefly".

You should never say "pleased to meet you" when you meet the Queen. It is to be assumed that everyone who meets the Queen is pleased.

There is also a lexicon of acceptable words. A common pitfall is for people to choose posh-sounding words that are actually incorrect. Mrs Middleton's crimes allegedly included using "toilet" and "pardon". Experts say "lavatory" or "loo" or even "bog" is appropriate, but not "toilet". Other such words include mirror, settee, serviette and notepaper, which should be looking glass, sofa, napkin and writing paper.
DON'TS

AN OFFICIAL website for the state of Virginia is offering pointers to its citizens on how to act in the presence of the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh.

"Bowing is not required of US citizens," it advises. "Shaking hands is acceptable." Should citizens feel obliged to observe strict formality, however, the right ways to curtsey and bow are explained just in case. Men bow their head only. Women place the right foot behind the left heel and then slightly bend the knees. In addition, it is explained that: "At least in Britain, when the Queen stops eating, you stop as well."

The site tells those likely to meet the Queen that she should be addressed first as Your Majesty and then as Ma'am, "which rhymes with jam".

But it warns: "By rank, the Duke of Edinburgh is lower than the Queen; thus he is addressed as Your Highness (NOT Your Majesty, aka King)."

On what to wear, the people of Virginia are told: "Members of the Royal Family do not wish anyone to be put to unnecessary expense by buying special clothes, hats or gloves."

While this covers the basics of royal etiquette, the Queen's own website lists a catalogue of further advice.

The most complicated element concerns letter writing, as notes to the Queen should be addressed in the care of The Master of the Household.

The state also has a dedicated phone number, "Virginia's Royal Welcome hotline" offering information about the Queen's stay on Thursday and Friday.

[Brad Johnson]

"Courteous and Polite" I do anyway, but I draw the line at "Bowing and Scraping."

Brad

[SomeKid]

Brad,

More than likely I would do as you just said. Though, I will note, I would offer, and vigorously shake her hand while verbally adding "Welcome to America, woman."

[RevDisk]

"Courteous and Polite" I do anyway, but I draw the line at "Bowing and Scraping."

Brad

There's a difference between bowing and saying "ma'am", and 'scraping'.  The Queen is a Lady and deserves due consideration.  I don't care if a woman is of technical royalty or not, a lady I always treat with upmost respect. 

[Brad Johnson]

There's a difference between bowing and saying "ma'am", and 'scraping'.  The Queen is a Lady and deserves due consideration.

Go back to my post (which you so conveniently quoted) and read everything before the comma...



Brad

[SomeKid]

The Queen is a Lady

Wrong. It is my firm belief, that a person born into some type of monarch status is by default subhuman garbage unless they dedicate all their power and influence towards securing the freedoms for those who were not born with their privilege.

If a person voluntarily marries a person who was born into monarch status, they are irredeemable garbage unless the person they married uses their power in a just fashion (as listed above), and they themselves use their influence to benefit those not given their privileges.

Regardless of however Elizabeth came to her position, I have not known of her to do anything that benefits the English people who do not have the same kind of life, freedom, and security she has simply been given. Has anyone heard her speak out against the oppressive gun laws GB has, for example?



It is kind of obvious, I hate tyrants, monarchs, and other elitist garbage.

[Declaration Day]

Hey Somekid, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel!

The notion that a person is "above" others by birthright is absurd.  The "Royal Family" is a complete scam, and it seems the British rather enjoy being scammed.

I'm a gentleman and if I were to meet her, I'd give her the same respect as I would anyone else, and no more. 

[K Frame]

What is it that Maj. Dick Winters says to Capt. Sobel when Sobel tries to walk past?

"Captain Sobel, you salute the rank, you don't salute the man."

Seems to me to be the same concept at work.

And, whether you like it or not, the British monarchy is largely responsible for the creation of this country of ours.

And the fact that our main ally in the world considers this woman to be the titular head of state requires that any DECENT, civil, American accord her the respect that her own nation does.

[K Frame]

"Courteous and Polite" I do anyway, but I draw the line at "Bowing and Scraping."

Brad

You're an American.

Not even the Queen of England expects an American to bow and scrape before her.


I believe, though, that active duty military personnel in uniform are required to salute them both -- she as head of state, he as a high-ranking officer of an allied nation.

There's an outside chance that I might be able to meet the Queen due to one of my extra curricular activities for Fairfax County.

Tell you what, Somekid. If I get to meet the Queen, I'll hock a gob in 'er platter, for ye.

[RevDisk]

There's a difference between bowing and saying "ma'am", and 'scraping'.  The Queen is a Lady and deserves due consideration.

Go back to my post (which you so conveniently quoted) and read everything before the comma...



Brad

Whoops.  Perhaps I didn't get the phrasing right to put across my intentions.  Same words can mean twenty different things.  My apologies if I gave any offense.   

She is, in short garbage who deserves to be spat on, ridiculed, and sent home in a box. This is America, we should send a message to any king/queens/dictators/tyrants/whatever that over here, we don't tolerate elitist crap.

She is due a fair amount of respect as being the official head of state of sixteen sovereign states.  A certain amount of diplomacy is warrented, as many of those sovereign states are our closest military allies, such as Canada and the UK.  I wouldn't say such behavior would definitely start a major war, but probably would.

Your example of her refusing to speak out against certain UK policies, including oppressive gun laws, is unfair.  Due to the nature of her official role, she is not supposed to interfere in policy and politics of the countries she 'rules'.

[SomeKid]

Tell you what, Somekid. If I get to meet the Queen, I'll hock a gob in 'er platter, for ye.

Thanks. (Yes, I know you were joking, still, pretty funny.)

"Captain Sobel, you salute the rank, you don't salute the man."

Seems to me to be the same concept at work.

If you mean I hate her because she is a monarch, you are correct. If you mean I should be nice to her because of her position, I think you are flat wrong.

And the fact that our main ally in the world considers this woman to be the titular head of state requires that any DECENT, civil, American accord her the respect that her own nation does.

Not even the Queen of England expects an American to bow and scrape before her.

And, whether you like it or not, the British monarchy is largely responsible for the creation of this country of ours.

I disagree, vehemently; she had better not; and in a way, you are right.

I believe, though, that active duty military personnel in uniform are required to salute them both

Then they have my utmost pity. I wonder though, could one refuse on religious grounds? (I do agree with Jefferson on this matter - disobedience to tyrants is obedience to God.) That said, the only salute towards a Monarch I will ever give, is the California salute.

She is due a fair amount of respect as being the official head of state of sixteen sovereign states.  A certain amount of diplomacy is warrented, as many of those sovereign states are our closest military allies, such as Canada and the UK.  I wouldn't say such behavior would definitely start a major war, but probably would.

Canada is hardly an ally at this point. Besides, a troop of boy scouts could earn their rifle marksman merit badges AND conquer Canada at the same time.

Your example of her refusing to speak out against certain UK policies, including oppressive gun laws, is unfair.  Due to the nature of her official role, she is not supposed to interfere in policy and politics of the countries she 'rules'.

What, so you are saying she has no freedom of speech? Then she should speak out against that. It doesn't have to be guns, she just needs to do something good for the world.

[Sindawe]

Royalty?  In the American Republic?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  I've two thoughts on the subject, both of which were better stated by others:

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."

Understandably this tends to make "Royalty" a tad jumpy.  So with this in mind and for more "refined" company, I offer

Rajadharma - "Kingship is a Trust. The King is the most exalted and conscientious servant of the people."

Being a head of state does not automatically mean an individual get my respect, 'specially one who got her title by lucky birth.

[roo_ster]

The head of hte Brit state is precluded from making political statements without the leave of Parliament.  Matter of fact, most of her political statements are written up by them.

She has proven her mettle driving ambulances through London during the Battle of Britain during WW2 and needs answer to no one.

Besides, there are few women left who know how to properly wring a pheasant's neck.

[Sindawe]

She has proven her mettle driving ambulances through London during the Battle of Britain during WW2...

Citation?

Elizabeth II was born 21 April 1926.  The Battle of Britain ran from July to October 1940.  She was 14 years old at the time.  Loony as the Brits sometimes appear to us Yanks, I doubt that even THEY would permit an heir to the throne to drive through war torn London while just a teenager.

[Perd Hapley]

Yes, we should probably disrespect and kill the queen of the nation that has been one of our best allies lately.  That would make perfect sense.  Supporting our foreign policy, despite massive pressure to do otherwise?  No, that's not important.  Let's start a war with Britain over their gun laws. 

How could anyone not agree with that? 

[HankB]

I thought we Americans settled our relationship with the British crown in the 18th century?

As far as being a head of state . . . she has no real power, doesn't make either domestic or foreign policy, is not elected, and doesn't do any actual leading in the sense that their Prime Minister does. Doesn't sound like much of a "head of state" to me.

Still, today Britain is an ally - were I to meet their queen, I would treat with her exactly as I would with any other elderly woman - with basic courtesy, NOT deference.

If she said "Pleased to meet you, Hank" my response would be "It's a pleasure, Elizabeth."

[Iain]

This is all a lot of fuss. Rather silly.

She has proven her mettle driving ambulances through London during the Battle of Britain during WW2...

Citation?

Elizabeth II was born 21 April 1926.  The Battle of Britain ran from July to October 1940.  She was 14 years old at the time.  Loony as the Brits sometimes appear to us Yanks, I doubt that even THEY would permit an heir to the throne to drive through war torn London while just a teenager.

She drove vehicles for the Auxiliary Territorial Service during 1945, she could perhaps have joined two years earlier, but even then attitudes were somewhat different.

Anyway, the third in line is about to go to Iraq. Andrew flew helicopters during the Falklands, exocet decoy missions.

I used to have republican sympathies, but these days I'll take our lot over the vacuous 'celebrity' nothings that would otherwise expand their niche and fill those column inches and newspaper reports left vacant. She's a figurehead who opens Parliament and new buildings and nips off around the world as a 'goodwill ambassador', and I prefer her in this role to say, Bill Clinton.

[Perd Hapley]

I'll take our lot over the vacuous 'celebrity' nothings that would otherwise expand their niche and fill those column inches and newspaper reports left vacant. She's a figurehead who opens Parliament and new buildings and nips off around the world as a 'goodwill ambassador', and I prefer her in this role to say, Bill Clinton.

But, but, doesn't she oppress you?  Throw off the chains, brother?    

The row itself may be silly, but this thread is down-right embarrassing. 

[RevDisk]

I believe, though, that active duty military personnel in uniform are required to salute them both

Then they have my utmost pity. I wonder though, could one refuse on religious grounds? (I do agree with Jefferson on this matter - disobedience to tyrants is obedience to God.) That said, the only salute towards a Monarch I will ever give, is the California salute.

No.  Because they took an oath of enlistment.  We don't have conscription, so said oath is 100% voluntary.  Refusing to render lawful honors (saluting) is a violation of military law unless tactically a bad idea.  If you don't like military law, don't take the oath.  I saluted many scum of the earth, but I was saluting the shiney badge on their forehead, not them.

She is due a fair amount of respect as being the official head of state of sixteen sovereign states.  A certain amount of diplomacy is warrented, as many of those sovereign states are our closest military allies, such as Canada and the UK.  I wouldn't say such behavior would definitely start a major war, but probably would.

Canada is hardly an ally at this point. Besides, a troop of boy scouts could earn their rifle marksman merit badges AND conquer Canada at the same time.

The US invaded Canada I believe three times.  Unsuccessfully, all three times.  Revolutionary War, War of 1812, and the Fenian raids.

Canada has faught along side the US in World War II, Korean War, the Gulf War, the Kosovo Campaign, and Afghanistan.

Your example of her refusing to speak out against certain UK policies, including oppressive gun laws, is unfair.  Due to the nature of her official role, she is not supposed to interfere in policy and politics of the countries she 'rules'.

What, so you are saying she has no freedom of speech? Then she should speak out against that. It doesn't have to be guns, she just needs to do something good for the world.
[/quote]

Correct.  She legally does not have the freedom of speech.


Queen Elizabeth did serve in WWII as Second Subaltern Elizabeth Windsor in the Women's Auxiliary Territorial Service as a driver.

[K Frame]

The row itself may be silly, but this thread is down-right embarrassing. 

You know, reading this thread again, I have to agree.

Unless someone can give me, by 12 noon eastern time, a damned good reason to keep this thread open, I'm killing it.


Somekid, you're going to have to do better than this in the future if you want to stay here and play with the big boys.

[SomeKid]

Why be embarrassed? The idea of being kind to Monarchs (even if they supposedly have no freedom of speech, which I highly doubt) on American soil is disturbing.

[Perd Hapley]

Unless someone can give me, by 12 noon eastern time, a damned good reason to keep this thread open, I'm killing it.

In the past, even the most outrageous nonsense has not been cause to lock down a thread at APS.  But if Oleg wants that to change, you'd know better than I.  I would just delete the calls for assassination of our ally's head of state, and let the thread go on. 

[Ex-MA Hole]

Scapegoat, while it pains me to disagree with you as my mentor, I'm pained that this chap even posted this on our forum, you know, the one that has the word "friendly" in the title?

That is not right.

Not right at all.

[Perd Hapley]

I'm pained, too.  But I think the thread is a lot more interesting than some others.  Why can't the offensive nonsense be scrubbed?  Of course, members can also be scrubbed, not that I would suggest such.   

[K Frame]

I'm pained, too.  But I think the thread is a lot more interesting than some others.  Why can't the offensive nonsense be scrubbed?  Of course, members can also be scrubbed, not that I would suggest such.   

Because I've spent enough time on this thread. I may do some remedial editing tonight, but that remains to be seen.

It's noon, boys and girls, and we all know what that means.


Somekid, all I can say is that you might want to... curb your enthusiasm a bit.