Console Gaming - WTF?

[Werewolf]

I've been playing games on the PC since 1979 when I got a TRS-80 (OKAY guys fess up - who here had one of those). PC games until recently always came with excellent and very detailed manuals. The still do but usually as a PDF now.

Last week I bought a PS3 along with GTA IV, Drakes Fortune, WWE/Smackdown, Unreal Tournament 3 and MLB08 the Show.

In every case the manuals absolutely...

SUCK!

Calling them manuals is really being generous because IMO they're really little more than a quick overview.

They all assume:

1. You're an expert on all things PS3
2. You're an expert on the itty bitty, gotta have fighter pilot dexterity to use 'em controllers
3. You're an expert on the game/sport being simulated: for example in MLB08 it assumes you know baseball lingo, in WWE it assumes you know wrestling lingo. I don't - haven't played BB since I was 12 and that was 44 years ago and haven't watched wrestling since I was 16. So there's all these things you can do but don't have a freaking clue what will happen when you do them because you don't understand the lingo.

So instead of enjoying the game right out of the box unless you're all the things the game publishers assume you have to spend hours figuring out how to do the things it tells you can be done and what makes it worse is you have to spend even more time figuring out all the stuff left out of the manual that isn't even mentioned but you know can be done from the advertising and features list on the game's web site.

AND then there's the various game forums for each game: Did GOD find all the pricks on the planet, turn 'em into console gamers (yeah, yeah I know - leaving myself wide open here) and make 'em active console gaming forum members?

I can go to a PC game forum, ask for help on a game and get friendly detailed instructions pretty quickly.

NOT SO on a console forum. Ask for help on those and you get back crap like "What a noob". Ask a question and the a'holes will come back with YES or NO with no other detail.

If there's civilized and reasonably mature console gamers out there where are they? Inquiring minds want to know.

[zahc]

All very true, and a significant barrier to new gamers. I remember trying to play FFT  back when I was a wee lad, and even advice given on forums was given in JRPG lingo, assuming that I knew what time buffering was and what an Elixer did.

[wmenorr67]

You come here to ask where to find civilized and reasonably mature people?

Step away from the skull bong.  

[Manedwolf]

The manuals are supposed to be minimalist. All the game makers have contracts with Brady Games so you'll buy the magazine-sized, thick Guide for each game for another $16. There is a rack of them in most bookstores, as well as any game store, also large retailers like Target.



I've never found anything difficult about the controllers, myself. But I've been using them continually since the first NES. If that's what you grew up with, the standard PSX-style controller is literally second nature. I don't even think about using the buttons, I just react to onscreen stimuli while subconciously knowing what finger to twitch, and stuff happens. If you train your brain, it becomes like driving, where you don't think about pushing on the pedal or brake and operating other controls. You just drive.

Also, almost all games have a "tutorial" period of some sort. In FPS, there might be a training course. Do it first, it teaches you how to run, jump, crouch, and shoot with the game's controls, how to use locks, objects and all in a zero-threat enviroment. Other games use the first few "episodes" of action to teach you how to use various controls as various situations come up.

[RevDisk]

Yep.  Part of it is that most game design companies do not think highly enough of tech writers and testers.  If you ever try reading documentation written by code monkeys, it is almost always insanely dismal.  Usually due to a lack of concern in that area, laziness outside of their core functionality, lack of aptitude, or just antisocial inclinations.  If you're a halfway intelligent coding monkey manager, you don't let your monkeys within twenty paces of documentation that will find it's ways into the hands of a user.   You need someone who's entire job is to turn code monkey speak into actually helpful information that is written in a logical manner. 

So you need a half monkey, half normal person to do such translation.  People good at this are rare.  Plus, the job doesn't historically pay well.  And you get what you pay for.  If your code monkeys draw down six figures and the tech writer draws $35k, don't expect quality documentation.  Even then, management will always try a way to axe the tech writers to save some cash. 

The more enterprising video game companies do exactly what Manedwolf suggest.  They not only axe their tech writers, but get paid not insignificant sums of money to 'outsource' their documentation to third parties who charge for it.  Very high end conveniental software makers do the same thing.

[Manedwolf]

I think the last game I'd seen with a stock manual that made me go "Wow" was Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb for PS2.

The manual for that was a glorious scrapbook of instructions and hints in the form of period telegrams, steamship itineraries, hotel brochures, Indy's journal notes and diagrams of artifacts, dinner club pamphlets, official correspondence letters from embassies in exotic countries, and even period slang, all of it covered with more artifacts like "Luftpost" Zeppelin stamps and other eyecandy. Plus easter eggs on those same papers, like a tiny note from Marcus Brody advising that the university would not cover the loss of another Webley. Even the technical assistance Western Union telegram advised "Need assistance? We have top men working on it!"

[Mabs2]

Your first mistake was buying sports games.  They're horrible.
Your second was buying a game that already has a PC (UT3) version, and a game that will soon have a PC version (GTAIV).
Should have just waited for the PC versions...the only reason I have a GCN and an Xbox is for those few games that are awesome but aren't on the PC.  The Resident Evil series for example.

[Manedwolf]

PC gaming is a hell of driver issues. Unless you actually enjoy cussing when it just quits before you save, returning you to a desktop with zero explanation, I'd avoid PC gaming. This seems to be a fairly regular occurence every time video card makers update their drivers, and will occur if you DO update the drivers, and if you do NOT update the drivers in the way a new game requires. You can't win.

Consoles have the advantage of standardized hardware, and you don't need to flush thousands down the drain to keep hardware up to spec. PC gaming is almost as much a money suck as owning a boat, moreso in some ways, since it becomes completely worthless in a few years. You throw money at it, and it keeps losing all resale value.

[grislyatoms]

Yep, they are trying to sell guide books.

I have never seen the point. If the guide book holds my hand through the entire game, what's the point of playing? Cheat codes, same-same.

I have read where some folks have already beaten GTAIV. I am playing it slowly and savoring it.

I refuse to game online. Too many profane little brats.

If I'm really stuck, I'll go to Gamefaqs. I can usually find what I am looking for without having to post to a forum.

[nico]

Yep, they are trying to sell guide books.

I have never seen the point. If the guide book holds my hand through the entire game, what's the point of playing? Cheat codes, same-same.

I have read where some folks have already beaten GTAIV. I am playing it slowly and savoring it.

I refuse to game online. Too many profane little brats.

If I'm really stuck, I'll go to Gamefaqs. I can usually find what I am looking for without having to post to a forum.

If you want to play with a (slightly ) more mature group, check out the war games forum on arfcom.  There are a couple threads where a bunch of guys list their screen names for Xbox Live and PS3.  Once you have a handful of adults on your buddy list it's not hard at all to avoid the 14 year old e-thugs.  The online components of games like COD4, Rainbow 6 Vegas 2, and GTA IV really add a lot to the overall game IMO. 

[Mabs2]

PC gaming is a hell of driver issues. Unless you actually enjoy cussing when it just quits before you save, returning you to a desktop with zero explanation, I'd avoid PC gaming. This seems to be a fairly regular occurence every time video card makers update their drivers, and will occur if you DO update the drivers, and if you do NOT update the drivers in the way a new game requires. You can't win.

Consoles have the advantage of standardized hardware, and you don't need to flush thousands down the drain to keep hardware up to spec. PC gaming is almost as much a money suck as owning a boat, moreso in some ways, since it becomes completely worthless in a few years. You throw money at it, and it keeps losing all resale value.

I've had a lot more trouble with console games than PC games.  And when a console game has trouble...what do you do?  Send stuff back?  At least with a PC you can fix it.

[freakazoid]

I think console games for the most part have always had small instruction booklets. And I think Manedwolf got it right when he said it is because they try to sell you the game guide. Although it seems like the PC games are like that to. I'm not much of a PC gamer but my STALKER game came with a pretty thin booklet. Although my old Jane's flight game came with a REALLY thick book all about maneuvers and stuff, I thought that that was pretty cool.

[Werewolf]

I have never seen the point. If the guide book holds my hand through the entire game, what's the point of playing? Cheat codes, same-same.

Not looking for cheats or walkthru's - like a poster said - "what would be the point". What I am looking for is decent instructions.

Like in MLB08 the catcher signals the pitcher what pitch to throw and where to throw it. OK - I get that. Even see a strike zone and the catcher's marker and pitch type. I can even move the marker around but that doesn't seem to have any effect on where the pitch goes. So I must be doing something wrong but what? The manual doesn't list the steps necessary just says you can do it - but not how to do it.

That's just one example of many.

The games I got all have phenomenal graphics and sound, excellent story lines for the story games, Unreal Tournament is the best shooter I've ever played and MLB08 the Show may just be the best computer baseball game I've ever played. Except I pretty much can't play it except in manager mode because there's no instructions on how to perform the various actions one can do like pitching and batting - just press this button or that button from a chart.

Very frustrating. AND the whole buy a Guide so you can play the game? Good marketing I suppose - lots'a suckers out there - I'm not one of them. So instead of purchasing a console game library that would match the one I have for the PC it looks like I'll only be buying games that really, really strike my fancy and I think will be worth spending the time and enduring the frustration of nuking out how they work.

Hell - I've got a freaking degree in Finance and an IQ that'll get me into Mensa (superficial jackasses that spend too much time stroking their egos) but feel like I'm too stupid to figure out these games.

Anyway thanks for the info and advice. Helpful...

[RocketMan]

I've been playing games on the PC since 1979 when I got a TRS-80 (OKAY guys fess up - who here had one of those).

I still have a TRS-80.  And an expansion interface.  And two of the old 180K floppy drives.
And the cassette players/data storage device.
Makes me feel like an old geek.

[jamz]

There are also some adult oriented gaming forums in which you'd probably get a  more civilized answer.  Gamerdad.com is one, adultgamingenthusiasts.com is another, I'm sure a google search would bring up more.

[Manedwolf]

PC gaming is a hell of driver issues. Unless you actually enjoy cussing when it just quits before you save, returning you to a desktop with zero explanation, I'd avoid PC gaming. This seems to be a fairly regular occurence every time video card makers update their drivers, and will occur if you DO update the drivers, and if you do NOT update the drivers in the way a new game requires. You can't win.

Consoles have the advantage of standardized hardware, and you don't need to flush thousands down the drain to keep hardware up to spec. PC gaming is almost as much a money suck as owning a boat, moreso in some ways, since it becomes completely worthless in a few years. You throw money at it, and it keeps losing all resale value.

I've had a lot more trouble with console games than PC games.  And when a console game has trouble...what do you do?  Send stuff back?  At least with a PC you can fix it.

If a console game has problems, it's the same problem that's happening to tens of thousands of other people with the same console and game, and the company already knows. PCs are not quite the same way.

[Boomhauer]

Although my old Jane's flight game came with a REALLY thick book all about maneuvers and stuff, I thought that that was pretty cool.

For Fighter's Anthology, I sent off a coupon for a freakin 400 page manual- for FREE! It covered everything in detail. Most of the Jane's flight simulators had a detailed manual on PDF, but those are hard to deal with. Jane's also got way too complex, especially F15. That is an example of trying to cram too much realism into a game.

Nobody writes the thick manuals anymore. The last game I purchased that had anything close to a useful manual was Grand Theft Auto San Andreas.

I can't wait for GTA IV to come out for the PC, though. I'll buy and squirrel away a copy until I get a better computer...

[Mabs2]

I got a very large manual when I bought SWG before it was butchered.  Miss that game.
With my pre-ordered collector's edition Oblivion I got not only a nice manual, but a book from the game.  Pocket Guide to the Empire.  Neat little thing about the history of the world.

[Regolith]

With my pre-ordered collector's edition Oblivion I got not only a nice manual, but a book from the game.  Pocket Guide to the Empire.  Neat little thing about the history of the world.

Don't forget the brass Septum coin....

I was a big fan of Morrowind.  Even got into modding for it, so I was all over Oblivion when it came out.  Thankfully, some PC games still come with manuals...


Although, I was severely disappointed to see the Oblivion inventory interface nerfed to make it easier to port to the 360. 

[Mabs2]

With my pre-ordered collector's edition Oblivion I got not only a nice manual, but a book from the game.  Pocket Guide to the Empire.  Neat little thing about the history of the world.

Don't forget the brass Septum coin....

I was a big fan of Morrowind.  Even got into modding for it, so I was all over Oblivion when it came out.  Thankfully, some PC games still come with manuals...


Although, I was severely disappointed to see the Oblivion inventory interface nerfed to make it easier to port to the 360. 

Yes!  I love my Septim!

And the interface...God...that's why I don't play the game.  Pre-ordered, paid liek $60 for the special version and I haven't even gone halfway through the game.  WTF was Bethesda thinking?  I complained on the forums for like a month straight, as well as everyone else that bought the game.

On a lighter note, I reinstalled Morrowind today...can't wait to get all my old mods back.

But yes, this is what's killing PC gaming.  They can make more money off the idiot college kids playing console games...so why bother making a decent PC game these days?  It's a shame.

PC gaming is a hell of driver issues. Unless you actually enjoy cussing when it just quits before you save, returning you to a desktop with zero explanation, I'd avoid PC gaming. This seems to be a fairly regular occurence every time video card makers update their drivers, and will occur if you DO update the drivers, and if you do NOT update the drivers in the way a new game requires. You can't win.

Consoles have the advantage of standardized hardware, and you don't need to flush thousands down the drain to keep hardware up to spec. PC gaming is almost as much a money suck as owning a boat, moreso in some ways, since it becomes completely worthless in a few years. You throw money at it, and it keeps losing all resale value.

I've had a lot more trouble with console games than PC games.  And when a console game has trouble...what do you do?  Send stuff back?  At least with a PC you can fix it.

If a console game has problems, it's the same problem that's happening to tens of thousands of other people with the same console and game, and the company already knows. PCs are not quite the same way.

Yep.  Everyone's having the trouble, and everyone knows...but what can they do about it?  The game has already shipped.  All they can do is update it and make new copies.  May be different these days with them fancy interweb consoles though.  I can remember having plenty of SNES, Genesis, N64, PSX, etc games having problems and just having to deal with them.  The guys who play Morrowind on Xbox have to deal with missing textures and bugged quests that were quicky patched by Bethesda (or other players) on the PC version.

[nico]

If a console game has problems, it's the same problem that's happening to tens of thousands of other people with the same console and game, and the company already knows. PCs are not quite the same way.

agreed.  The freezing problem with GTA IV on PS3 is an example of that.  They cranked out an update that seems to have fixed the problem ASAP.  Try to get that kind of response when a PC game has that kind of problem, but only with a certain model of video card that you happen to have. 

If I could afford a gaming PC, I'd love to have one, but the continuity of hardware is a huge advantage for console games from both a programing standpoint and a consumer standpoint.  The game can be written to be optimized for one set of hardware without regard for other types (not completely true with multiplatform games, but that's still less of an issue than the endless hardware combos available with PCs), and consumers don't have to worry about dumping a few hundred to several hundred bucks on new hardware every year just to be able to play the games at their optimum settings.

[Manedwolf]

If I could afford a gaming PC, I'd love to have one, but the continuity of hardware is a huge advantage for console games from both a programing standpoint and a consumer standpoint. 

That's the thing. If you can afford a gaming PC, you'll need to afford another gaming PC in a couple of years, and then another gaming PC in a couple of years, and...

If you don't keep dumping thousands into it, it just won't play the latest games. And those thousands go down the drain, because the hardware becomes, well...Goodwill donation value.

[theotherwaldo]

The standard answer is, "just Google it."  Sometimes it helps.

Yeah, I remember the Trash 80.  In '79 I was the ship-rec artist at Tandy Repair Depot - Portland, Oregon.  I was hip-deep in 4k Level I machines that were being updated to 16k Level IIs.  Wow.  16k of memory!  My pocket camera has 2 gig.

I like console gaming.  Dedicated hardware rocks!

[SomeKid]

If I could afford a gaming PC, I'd love to have one, but the continuity of hardware is a huge advantage for console games from both a programing standpoint and a consumer standpoint. 

That's the thing. If you can afford a gaming PC, you'll need to afford another gaming PC in a couple of years, and then another gaming PC in a couple of years, and...

If you don't keep dumping thousands into it, it just won't play the latest games. And those thousands go down the drain, because the hardware becomes, well...Goodwill donation value.

Simply not true. I use my gaming PC for school, work, research, websurfing etc. I built this thing about 7 years ago, for roughly 1200. I have since replaced parts that wore out (bout $100, however I needed the PC for school anyway, and I bought upgraded parts, so you can't really call it a gaming expense) and added a gig of ram, which added another couple hundred.

Do the math on that. Lets call it 1500. For 1 PC. That has lasted 7 years, and been good for gaming. I am planning on making a new PC, sometime this summer. How many consoles can you do work, school, and fun on, for 7 years?

[Manedwolf]

If I could afford a gaming PC, I'd love to have one, but the continuity of hardware is a huge advantage for console games from both a programing standpoint and a consumer standpoint. 

That's the thing. If you can afford a gaming PC, you'll need to afford another gaming PC in a couple of years, and then another gaming PC in a couple of years, and...

If you don't keep dumping thousands into it, it just won't play the latest games. And those thousands go down the drain, because the hardware becomes, well...Goodwill donation value.

Simply not true. I use my gaming PC for school, work, research, websurfing etc. I built this thing about 7 years ago, for roughly 1200. I have since replaced parts that wore out (bout $100, however I needed the PC for school anyway, and I bought upgraded parts, so you can't really call it a gaming expense) and added a gig of ram, which added another couple hundred.

Do the math on that. Lets call it 1500. For 1 PC. That has lasted 7 years, and been good for gaming. I am planning on making a new PC, sometime this summer. How many consoles can you do work, school, and fun on, for 7 years?

And you can play the latest FPS games with full framerate and high detail on this seven year old PC?