In class right now...

[taurusowner]

Im sitting in a criminal justice class right now, and the topic of the Porkulus bill came up, mainly because it's slated to provide millions and millions for police departments and the like.  I just had to ask "Who's gonna pay for it?", only to get the usual "Corporations have screwed everyone and should pay for my problems" rants from almost the whole class.  It's just so saddening to sit here in a room of my peers and to be the only one who understand economics.  I used to take comfort in the idea that at least half the nation usually had their heads on straight and didn't fall for the populist communism being spouted by the new regime.  But as I sit here, I'm realizing that thinkers are a dying breed.  Looters and moochers are thriving like never before it seems.  I almost want to give up, but there is no where to go.  I am 25.  And I am going to have to live in the system and world these people build for the rest of my life.  I'm just starting to enter a new career, I'm planning on getting engaged soon, and now I'm afraid the world I will live in is going to fall apart due to incompetence and tyranny.  Politics will be politics, and the game will go on.  But for the first time in my adult life I am really getting the feeling that the political choices being made this very minute are going to truly ruin lives by the millions in front of my very eyes.

[Nick1911]

I'm 23.  I have similar feelings.

My question is to the older generation - Is this a cyclical thing?  For you guys in your 50-60's - have you seen this kind of thing come and go in the past?

[roo_ster]

Yeah, it has happened before.

… Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses

Hope in the face of such perfidy:

    It is to be prayed that the mind be sound in a sound body.
    Ask for a brave soul that lacks the fear of death,
    which places the length of life last among nature’s blessings,
    which is able to bear whatever kind of sufferings,
    does not know anger, lusts for nothing and believes
    the hardships and savage labors of Hercules better than
    the satisfactions, feasts, and feather bed of an Eastern king.
    I will reveal what you are able to give yourself;
    For certain, the one footpath of a tranquil life lies through virtue

[Scout26]

I'll be waiting for you guys in the gulch.

It's becomeing more apparent everyday that merely electing the "right" people will not correct the slide.  We'll have to go through a total Economic meltdown before the "smart" people learn that capitalism is the only economic system that works.

[AJ Dual]

I'm 23.  I have similar feelings.

My question is to the older generation - Is this a cyclical thing?  For you guys in your 50-60's - have you seen this kind of thing come and go in the past?

I'm not in my 50's or 60's, but at 35, perhaps I've got an interesting Gen-X in-between view.

It's a double-edged sword it cuts both ways. People do seem to be getting stupider, and more crass, venal, and distracted. OTOH, the previous generation always worries the one who comes after it is bankrupt and stupid. I'm sure the parents of those now in their 60's thought America was "over" and "going to hell" in the 1960's. Yet we got the resurgance of the 1980's and 90's, and despite 9/11 and the tech-bubble, and Iraq/Afghanistan/AWOT, things were pretty good during the first 6-7 years of the 2000's as well.

One thing is I think most people don't really understand how huge and powerful the United States actually is economically, and culturally. We have a long, long, long way to fall.

[Uncle Bubba]

I'm not in my 50's or 60's, but at 35, perhaps I've got an interesting Gen-X in-between view.

It's a double-edged sword it cuts both ways. People do seem to be getting stupider, and more crass, venal, and distracted. OTOH, the previous generation always worries the one who comes after it is bankrupt and stupid. I'm sure the parents of those now in their 60's thought America was "over" and "going to hell" in the 1960's. Yet we got the resurgance of the 1980's and 90's, and despite 9/11 and the tech-bubble, and Iraq/Afghanistan/AWOT, things were pretty good during the first 6-7 years of the 2000's as well.

One thing is I think most people don't really understand how huge and powerful the United States actually is economically, and culturally. We have a long, long, long way to fall.

Well said. I thought of the like during the Presidential campaign when McCain said, "The economy is fundamentally sound." and got raked over the coals for it by the press and the supposed sharp heads. They all said, "How can he say that when we all know the economy is in such bad shape?" He was right, for the reasons you stated, but none of them understand that.

[Standing Wolf]

It's just so saddening to sit here in a room of my peers and to be the only one who understand economics.

They're not your peers. It's not your fault you're more intelligent than they. Welcome to reality.

[zahc]

My dad always said "don't worry, that's a good feeling. It feeling means your brain is working".

[grampster]

"One thing is I think most people don't really understand how huge and powerful the United States actually is economically, and culturally. We have a long, long, long way to fall."

The above is true, but.....  The problem is that the damn fools that have been handed the reigns of power are working overtime to grease the skids of that fall.

Sober reflection and a memory of the recent past (say 25 years) will show that the very government that is now in charge set the stage for this economic meltdown with policies they promulgated and then forced banks and lenders to participate in or be sued.

That old definition; Doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result, is the definition of insanity.  It is as true now as ever.  It is also more true now than ever, that if you repeat the lie enough, it becomes reality.  The present majority in government is pointing the finger in many directions.  One direction they will never point it is at themselves.  Listen to the recordings of the hearings about Fannie and Freddie malfeasance in 2004 (iirc).

Americans are in the midst of a grand mal delusion.

[vaskidmark]

I almost do not want to say (type) this, because it will probably be taken as hackneyed and trite, as well as hugely oversimplified, but --

The current behavior of the masses seems to be very similar to that of the lemming herd.

For no discernable reason a lemming gets it into its head that there is an absolutely comelling reason that he/she must run in "that" direction.  This compulsion seems to be transmitted to the rest of the herd, and soon, for no discernable reason, every single lemming is running in "that" direction just as fast as their little legs can carry them.

If "that" direction leads to a cliff, or to a huge body of water, or some other seemingly insurmountable obstacle, it justy does not matter.  The lead lemming, and most of the herd following, continue to run in "that" direction, even to their obvious doom.

A few of the lemmings in the rear of the herd get jammed up in traffic and for whatever reason can no longer run in "that" direction, but are forced to either stop & wait for a break in traffic, or get diverted into running in another direction.  These few lemmings in the rear either quit running at all once they get jammed up, or go on in some other direction until they either are exhausted, come to some new cliff or huge body of water where they go to their doom, or get diverted to a new direction again untill (ad nauseum) they stop.

Having been through a lemming stampede or 2 over the past 60+ years I have aged to the point where I am perpetually at the back of the herd.  Most of the time I do not get the message that there is a stampede until way after it has started, and I'm so old and out of shape that by the time I can get my legs moving at all the stampede has left me in the dust wondering which way they went.

The current stampede seems to have been planned well in advance.  I do not do Facebook or Twitter or any of those "networking" things, but I heard about this one coming a few years ago.  Unfortunately, being both hard of hearing and beyond caring too much, I missed many of the finer points, except what "conservative talk radio" has blathered on about.  I'm still not sure of the finer points, but as I see it money will soon be no good even for wiping my butt, and "The Government" will miraculously come up with a plan to show us a plan that they plan will save us if we can just follow the planned plan - maybe.  In the mean time The Government is going to screw with the economy to see just how far they can toss it while still claiming to have it firmly in hand.

Maybe I can get a few more folks to drop back to the rear of the herd where we can wait until the uncontrollable urge dissipates itself.

stay safe.

skidmark

[Perd Hapley]

Well said. I thought of the like during the Presidential campaign when McCain said, "The economy is fundamentally sound." and got raked over the coals for it by the press and the supposed sharp heads. They all said, "How can he say that when we all know the economy is in such bad shape?" He was right, for the reasons you stated, but none of them understand that.

Same here.  I winced, when he copped out with the silly "I was talking about our fine American workers" dodge.  He should have said, "Of course the "fundamentals" are sound.  Waddya think this is?  Botswana?"

[Grandpa Shooter]

But as I sit here, I'm realizing that thinkers are a dying breed.  Looters and moochers are thriving like never before it seems.  I almost want to give up, but there is no where to go.  I am 25.  And I am going to have to live in the system and world these people build for the rest of my life. 


And there you have it.  "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need"  Sound familiar?  I read Ayn Rand in 1974 back before many of you were born.  I mean all of her writings not just Atlas Shrugged.  The key thing to ask yourselves is this:  Who determines "need and ability" in todays society.  Will it be the doers and thinkers, or will it be the parasites that move from one host to another.

I have been preparing my own way for many years.  I am now in the final stages of establishing my own "gulch" if you will.  I have tried to influence people in my own circle, but for the most part it is preaching to the choir.  The only comfort I have is having my own son say to me, "Dad, its time for my generation to stand up and be heard.  You have carried the torch long enough. Now its our turn"

That Ladies and Gentlemen is the challenge facing you in the next 20 years, providing of course, that we make it that far before the fall.

[Bob F.]

Mid-60's here, and broke.

Largely agree w/ AJ, but Grandpa nailed it.

Received an e-mail a while back but can't find it so I'll paraphrase:

5th grade class decided to hold an election to learn how our system worked. Went through the process of selecting two candidates, and all. Election day the 1st one got up and explained the things he thought the class could do to make the class better, projects, physical arrangements, etc.

2nd candiadte said, if elected, the class would have icecream every day. No one asked who would but the ice cream, would they take turns, would the teacher buy, what flavor, anything? The all voted for candidate #2.

Bob

[bk425]

And there you have it.  "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need"  Sound familiar?  I read Ayn Rand in 1974 back before many of you were born.  I mean all of her writings not just Atlas Shrugged.  The key thing to ask yourselves is this:  Who determines "need and ability" in todays society.  Will it be the doers and thinkers, or will it be the parasites that move from one host to another.

Maybe you meant "Will it be the invisible hand of the market, or will it be the parasites that move from one host to another."
 I'm pretty sure I'm "with ya" on all this... just making sure. -Boyd

[Grandpa Shooter]

Maybe you meant "Will it be the invisible hand of the market, or will it be the parasites that move from one host to another."
 I'm pretty sure I'm "with ya" on all this... just making sure. -Boyd

Since a free market does not exist in the US or the World, it will not be the demand for labor or production which holds sway over effort and payment.  What has crept upon us is a system in which those who are least productive get the greatest rewards.  All they have to do is exist, breathe and take up space to get what they want, a turn at the nipple of government.  Those who are willing to work and get paid for it, will be stripped of the meaningful reward of their labors by being told that they have to "give to the common good" without regard for their inherent right to keep their reward and decide how they choose to spend it.

That is the essence of taxes.  The government takes away your money because you are productive, and decides, without consulting you, who "deserves" to get the money they took away from you.  When we allowed ourselves to be deprived of our duly earned and deserved rewards commensurate with our talents, we condoned the system now in place.  If you work at the utmost of your ability, the parasites will attach themselves to you   until you are so consumed you cease to be useful to them.  They will find another host.

The key flaw in their plan is that they expect we will continue to be willing victims.  If all the productive and talented people opted out of the current oppressive political regime and economy, there would be no hosts for the parasites.  They would then have to consume each other.  We are the meat they need to survive.  All they are is fat and bone.  Ask yourself, are you willing to continue to be a host for the parasites?

[zahc]

What else is there to do? Would that there was still a frontier.

[Regolith]

What else is there to do? Would that there was still a frontier.

There still is; it's called an infinite universe.  We just don't have technology to exploit it yet. 


Almost makes me wish I were born 100 years later.  Then again, there is no guarantee that the kind of environment that I grew up in that shaped my libertarian leanings would still exist then. 

[Grandpa Shooter]

The current behavior of the masses seems to be very similar to that of the lemming herd.

For no discernable reason a lemming gets it into its head that there is an absolutely comelling reason that he/she must run in "that" direction.  This compulsion seems to be transmitted to the rest of the herd, and soon, for no discernabherle reason, every single lemming is running in "that" direction just as fast as their little legs can carry them.

If "that" direction leads to a cliff, or to a huge body of water, or some other seemingly insurmountable obstacle, it justy does not matter.  The lead lemming, and most of the herd following, continue to run in "that" direction, even to their obvious doom.

Skidmark gave you a good analogy and hopefully he won't mind if I expand on it.  We arrived at the edge of the precipice because the government encouraged and enabled people to spend more than they made.  With easy credit, 100%+ financing, low or no down on houses, cars and other such niceties, People got drawn into the lemming easy credit herd.  Everyone (almost) was suckered into living beyond their means, with sky high mortgage payments, car loans, revolving charge accounts, high limit credit cards, you name it.  With everyone in the herd overextending themselves, they raced closer and closer to the edge of the precipice.  The ones who fell off the cliff into the pit are the ones you hear about on the news.  The people who invested in Madoff's ponzi scheme, bought huge houses, cars and boats and planes.  They expected there to be level ground to run on for eternity (or their life anyway).  If you run blindly following the leaders, you will eventually fall of the edge, or get pushed off by the crush of lemmings behind you.

The way out of the lemming herd is to NOT do what the others are doing.  Don't fall into the trap of being an overproducer and therefore ripe for the picking and don't get hooked on living beyond your means.  Intentionally produce what you need and only what you need to live.  Don't leave any scraps for the parasites to feed on.  Live down to the lowest level you can be comfortable with.  When the parasites run out of willing hosts and have fed off each other until there is nothing of value left, that will be the time to step forward, take a leadership position and turn the lemming herd around.  The bulk of them will have fallen off the cliff, or fed off each other, and what will be left are the people who refused to be used, and have the talent, intelligence and moral character to succeed.

Your choice:  Run with the herd or get off to the side and wait it out.

[vaskidmark]

Preach it, Gramps!

BTW, it is not necessary to get off the grid to get out of the way of the herd.  I'm an urban dweller out of necessity (access to medicine and occassionally medical care).  but I choose to live well within my means and well outside the masses.  I've got a rotating "stockpile" of necessities, but I'm too tied to pharacuticals to be able to last too long without a good drugstore.  My plans take that into account.

I am not as pessimistic as some may be about changing the political scene.  Every few months I seem to find a new recruit for the choir, and take some minor pleasure in keeping the elected politicians notified of my views, whether they respond or act accordingly or not.

Stand by, and stand fast.  All we need to do is ride this out.  In the mean time, try to find a politician worth grooming, and let them know you are grooming them.  Also let them know you will cut them loose with a fatal dose if they do not understand "representation" as opposed to "I know what's good for you."

stay safe.

skidmark

[grampster]

It is edifying to find myself in the good company of GS and vaskidmark. 

To further expand on their wisdom, it just goes to show you how dumbed down the average, and not so average American is. When I was still gainfully employed in the insurance bidniss, I used to constantly wonder how so many people could be so stupid as to get 2nd and 3rd mortgages on their homes to buy boats and bikes and ATV's and snowmobiles etc.  (They were calling to put the new mortgages on their homeowner policies.)  And the government had their greasy fingers in that stupidity as well.  When the tax laws changed forbidding deducting any interest other than mortgages, the herd began to run toward the cliff.  That was one of the most damn fool things the government did.  I hate to say it, but I think that was on Reagan's watch.