Author Topic: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)  (Read 7987 times)

makattak

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Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« on: April 29, 2009, 10:05:01 AM »
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Law vs. Moral Values
Walter E. Williams
Wednesday, April 29, 2009

A civilized society's first line of defense is not the law, police and courts but customs, traditions and moral values. Behavioral norms, mostly transmitted by example, word of mouth and religious teachings, represent a body of wisdom distilled over the ages through experience and trial and error. They include important thou-shalt-nots such as shalt not murder, shalt not steal, shalt not lie and cheat, but they also include all those courtesies one might call ladylike and gentlemanly conduct. The failure to fully transmit values and traditions to subsequent generations represents one of the failings of the so-called greatest generation.

Behavior accepted as the norm today would have been seen as despicable yesteryear. There are television debt relief advertisements that promise to help debtors to pay back only half of what they owe. Foul language is spoken by children in front of and sometimes to teachers and other adults. When I was a youngster, it was unthinkable to use foul language to an adult; it would have meant a smack across the face. Back then, parents and teachers didn't have child-raising "experts" to tell them that "time out" is a means of discipline. Baby showers are held for unwed mothers. Yesteryear, such an acceptance of illegitimacy would have been unthinkable.

To see men sitting whilst a woman or elderly person was standing on a crowded bus or trolley car used to be unthinkable. It was common decency for a man to give up his seat. Today, in some cities there are ordinances requiring public conveyances to set aside seats posted "Senior Citizen Seating." Laws have replaced common decency. Years ago, a young lady who allowed a guy to have his hand in her rear pocket as they strolled down the street would have been seen as a slut. Children addressing adults by first names was unacceptable.

You might be tempted to charge, "Williams, you're a prude!" I'd ask you whether high rates of illegitimacy make a positive contribution to a civilized society. If not, how would you propose that illegitimacy be controlled? In years past, it was controlled through social sanctions like disgrace and shunning. Is foul language to or in the presence of teachers conducive to an atmosphere of discipline and respect necessary for effective education? If not, how would you propose it be controlled? Years ago, simply sassing a teacher would have meant a trip to the vice principal's office for an attitude adjustment administered with a paddle. Years ago, the lowest of lowdown men would not say the kind of things often said to or in front of women today. Gentlemanly behavior protected women from coarse behavior. Today, we expect sexual harassment laws to restrain coarse behavior.

During the 1940s, my family lived in North Philadelphia's Richard Allen housing project. Many families didn't lock doors until late at night, if ever. No one ever thought of installing bars on their windows. Hot, humid summer nights found many people sleeping outside on balconies or lawn chairs. Starting in the '60s and '70s, doing the same in some neighborhoods would have been tantamount to committing suicide. Keep in mind that the 1940s and '50s were a time of gross racial discrimination, high black poverty and few opportunities compared to today. The fact that black neighborhoods were far more civilized at that time should give pause to the excuses of today that blames today's pathology on poverty and discrimination.

Policemen and laws can never replace customs, traditions and moral values as a means for regulating human behavior. At best, the police and criminal justice system are the last desperate line of defense for a civilized society. Our increased reliance on laws to regulate behavior is a measure of how uncivilized we've become.


http://townhall.com/Columnists/WalterEWilliams/2009/04/29/law_vs_moral_values

He has clearly illustrated the problems we have. Our increasing rejection of customs, traditions, and morality is the "uncivilizing" of Western Civilization.

I'd be intersted to see a study on the effects of "uncivilized" behavior.

I'm thinking there is a similar relationship like the correlation found between minor crimes (like grafitti, litter, etc...) and major crimes. Rudi Guliani, as I recall used that relationship to clean up New York and lower the crime rate.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to reverse the trend other than to teach my children the correct way to act like a gentleman (or lady), treat a lady (or demand being treated like a lady), and respect authority.

I've contended for a long time that our problems are societal, not legal.

(Also, I'm quite glad this post was number 777, quite fitting)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 10:15:32 AM by makattak »
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

buzz_knox

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2009, 10:13:33 AM »
You can't put your preferred structure in place without destroying the current one when the two are incompatible.  That applies to societies to the same extent it applies to buildings. 

Those who want a cultural revolution in the US have to destroy the culture that exists. 

Jimmy Dean

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2009, 11:13:41 AM »
shhhhh  don't mentioned the 'R' word.

That is something that comes along with the other type as well though, and really, it takes one to have the other as well.

Balog

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2009, 01:31:36 PM »
The hippie scum did a pretty good job raping the culture in the 60's. I'd like to think we could shift it back, but the relentless stream of .gov indoctrination at the public school level makes me doubt enough of the populace could grasp why it's important or desirable.
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I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2009, 02:32:19 PM »
“Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; there are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book and the end of the world is evidently approaching.”
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Balog

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2009, 02:34:48 PM »
Did you have a point?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

CNYCacher

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2009, 02:41:19 PM »
“Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; there are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book and the end of the world is evidently approaching.”

I see what you did there.
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

MicroBalrog

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2009, 02:51:53 PM »
Yes.

Here is my point, very briefly:

There have always been people complaining about the supposed moral degradation of society.

What does it mean "society needs to conform to certain standards" in order to be civilized?

Do we mean that the 'standard' is that murder and theft have to be unacceptable to the majority of citizens? Sure! If that disappears, no number of police will ever protect the public.

Do we mean that people need to be having less extramarital sex and wear longer skirts to retain civilization? Probably not.

As for the notion that single mothers are 'illegitimate' and need to be less 'accepted', I'm sorry, that's just plain despicable and ridiculous. As someone who was born two weeks after his parents' wedding, I find it deeply offensive.

Would you consider murder rates to be a valid measure of how civilized a society is? In 1940, the United States murder rate was 6.0 per 100,000. In 1950 it was 5.0. In 1960 it was  4.7, and rose to 5.1 by 1965, spiking to 1968 and reaching 8.0 by 1970. Doesn't seem to me like the 1940's were all that superior to today.

And as for individual liberty... Ha.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Balog

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2009, 03:00:02 PM »
Individual liberty is not the issue here. And the fact that people have been complaining before doesn't invalidate the current premise.

I do agree about the single parent thing, to an extent. I'm not saying we need to shame them or hurt them, but it does need to be viewed as something sub-optimal, not as a normal alternative.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

buzz_knox

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2009, 03:08:59 PM »
It's a given that there have always been problems and societies have degenerated.  That doesn't in any way diminish the fact that there is a culture war going on in the US, with the goal of destroying elements of culture in order to replace them with others. 

MicroBalrog

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2009, 03:11:34 PM »
What's 'civilization'?

I for one view the 1940's as the most uncivilized part of the 20th century, at least if you include the fate of Western Civilization in general.

I also include the fate of individual liberty as part of my definition of civilization. The military draft is uncivilized. Internment camps are uncivilized. What the Europeans and Russians did at that time was downright barbaric - and they were people who loved traditional marriages and wore suits and ties.

Quote
It's a given that there have always been problems and societies have degenerated.  T

No, this is not my point. I see no proof that current American (or, in fact, Western) society is getting worse in the long term. In many ways it's getting better.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Balog

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2009, 03:15:11 PM »
No, this is not my point. I see no proof that current American (or, in fact, Western) society is getting worse in the long term. In many ways it's getting better.

And some people disagree with you. Different value systems and all.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2009, 03:21:43 PM »
And some people disagree with you. Different value systems and all.

...cool. And?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MicroBalrog

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2009, 03:25:26 PM »
This seems appropriate:

Quote from: L.Neil Smith
"Question Authority"? To hell with that -- hang it up by its thumbs, cut off its toes, and let it drip dry!
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Balog

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2009, 03:26:42 PM »
...cool. And?

You're the one getting all pissy about the article man.

This seems appropriate:


Social forces != authority.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

makattak

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2009, 03:30:13 PM »
This seems appropriate:

Quote from: L.Neil Smith
Quote
"Question Authority"? To hell with that -- hang it up by its thumbs, cut off its toes, and let it drip dry!


Authority can be respected and yet questioned.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2009, 04:22:29 PM »

Social forces != authority.

I'm referring to Mak's post.

Quote
Authority can be respected and yet questioned.

Authority should only be respected if it deserves respect.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

makattak

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2009, 04:54:32 PM »
I'm referring to Mak's post.

Authority should only be respected if it deserves respect.

No, authority should be respected because of their position. A person should be respected only if they deserve respect.

Authority is weilded by individuals, but only because of their position. Those individuals may or may not deserve respect while their position does.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2009, 05:06:17 PM »
Whether a position of authority deserves respect is a function where that authority is derived from and how it is wielded, no?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

MechAg94

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2009, 05:38:12 PM »
Whether a position of authority deserves respect is a function where that authority is derived from and how it is wielded, no?
No.  But Respect does not mean blind obedience and submission nor does it mean complete lack of questioning. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

roo_ster

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2009, 05:52:13 PM »
Yep, WW hits it on the head.

Folks have to control themselves or the polity will insist they be forced to meet a minimum standard of behavior.  Makes for an interesting, counter-intuitive, truth:
The more self-controlled and self disciplined a population, the more liberty from gov't interference.

I recognize the Assyrian quote.  Its significance is not what you think.  It is testimony to immutable human nature and the tendency of humans to painfully build a civilization over generations and then see it all fall due to internal corruption in a matter of a generation or two.  Maybe for your next quote, you can dredge up a bronze-age mother's worry for her child's health to dismiss contemporary parental concerns.

Personally, I think it of the utmost importance to re-instate social opprobrium for out of wedlock births.  It is not practical to make them illegal, so social forces are what is left to us.

Quote from: MB, from the other side of the world
No, this is not my point. I see no proof that current American (or, in fact, Western) society is getting worse in the long term. In many ways it's getting better.

Many folks on the ground disagree.
Regards,

roo_ster

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----G.K. Chesterton

MicroBalrog

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2009, 06:18:48 PM »
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The more self-controlled and self disciplined a population, the more liberty from gov't interference.[/qute]

We observe in this vein the wonders of freedom enjoyed by Imperial Japan, Ming Dinasty China, the Antebellum South and Victorian England.

Quote
It is testimony to immutable human nature and the tendency of humans to painfully build a civilization over generations and then see it all fall due to internal corruption in a matter of a generation or two.

Quote
Many folks on the ground disagree.

"On the ground"? Are you implying I'm not a part of Western Civilization?

Quote
I recognize the Assyrian quote.

Assuming the quote is genuine (many people doubt it), it is a Babylonian quote. It is dated apptox. 2800 BC, i.e. long before Assyria came to be as a civilization. Babylon moved on to become the greatest civilization in the world after the quote was written, reaching a peak of greatness 1100 years after the quote was worded. That's how miserably, painfully, blindingly wrong the author was about Babylonian civilization ending. Assuming the Greek definition of 25 years as a span of a civilization, that's 44 generations - hardly "a generation or two".

Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2009, 06:23:10 PM »
Williams is right, though it isn't a particularly brilliant or insightful point.  People have known this for centuries.  Wasn't it Adams who said our form of government was only acceptable for a moral people?  The old Age of Reason guys made a distinction between a man alone in nature being free to do anything he wants vs. men in society with other free men doing anything they want.

Put simply, people must moderate their own behaviors.  If they don't, civil society breaks down.  Before that happens, though, government will try impose civil behavior by force.  Williams is right, if necessary laws will fill the void left be declining morals.

If we don't want all of these laws, then we all need to behave in a way that doesn't make the laws necessary.  Freedom only works if people are willing to restrain themselves.

I see no proof that current American (or, in fact, Western) society is getting worse in the long term. In many ways it's getting better.
It depends what you mean by "better".  We are certainly freer today to make a mess of ourselves, our communities, and society at large than we ever have been in the past.  And we certainly aren't shy about exercising this new freedom.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2009, 06:35:11 PM »
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It depends what you mean by "better". 

Gun rights? Taxes? Civil rights? Less Federal employees per capita than at any point since 1934? Less murders (per capita) than in the 1940's? I'd call less people being murdered a wonderful thing.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Balog

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Re: Walter Williams gets it exactly right (as usual)
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2009, 06:37:12 PM »
Gun rights? Taxes? Civil rights? Less Federal employees per capita than at any point since 1934? Less murders (per capita) than in the 1940's? I'd call less people being murdered a wonderful thing.

And that one stat means it's better in every single way, right?

But as long as we view the acceptance of deviant practices as bad, and you think it's great this little chat is pointless.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.