Author Topic: A Mercenary Military?  (Read 20566 times)

RJMcElwain

  • friend
  • New Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 66
A Mercenary Military?
« on: September 26, 2007, 12:01:24 PM »
The Blackwater revelations during the last week or so has brought to light the fact that we have over 100,000 "private soldiers", also called mercenaries, working either directly or indirectly for the USA. Is this the direction of our national security operations in the future? I'm not sure that very comforting.

Bob
Robert J. McElwain
Practical Libertarian

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." ~Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950)

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2007, 12:08:59 PM »
My only concern is when they're used stateside to get around posse comitatus. They're trained to destroy things and protect individuals by destroying people they see as a threat, not keep the peace.


Risasi

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2007, 12:09:11 PM »
Quote
Is this the direction of our national security operations in the future?

Uh...yeah.


Quote

My only concern is when they're used stateside to get around posse comitatus.

I'm sure more will surface RE: the Katrina incident...


---

P.S. Who has seen the Najaf video?

RJMcElwain

  • friend
  • New Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 66
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2007, 12:15:17 PM »
My only concern is when they're used stateside to get around posse comitatus. They're trained to destroy things and protect individuals by destroying people they see as a threat, not keep the peace.



Sorry Manedwolf, but you didn't add to my comfort level at all.  smiley

Bob
Robert J. McElwain
Practical Libertarian

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." ~Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950)

Waitone

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,133
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2007, 02:48:58 PM »
Welcome to the new military when less is more and shortage is surplus.  Our rulers determined we are spending too much on defense related issues.   So like all bureaucracies the move is on to shift budgetary responsibility.  Cut the military waaaay back and supplement it in essential task with "contract" labor.  Military looks good because it is doing more with less; and contract labor shops make money.  Everyone looks good right up until a stupid incident takes place.

Before the beginning of our latest war the head whup in the Army (and I can not remember his name at this time) predicted we'd need 400,000 pairs of boots in Iraq to do the job.  He was ridiculed and eventually pushed out because he dared to speak out.  Well guess what!  Add our current troop levels to our current contractor levels and you come real close to his prediction of 400,000 pairs of boots on the ground. 

The scandal in not the incident with Blackwater.  It was bound to occur and at this point we still don't know what reality is.  The real scandal is we've outsourced essential national defense functions to private contractors (who just happen to have close ties to political families).  Rules of behavior are not the same and political pressure for screwup is shunted off the target. 
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
- Charles Mackay, Scottish journalist, circa 1841

"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it." - John Lennon

wmenorr67

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,775
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2007, 05:17:12 PM »
Well we all have Bill Clinton to thank for the smaller military.  And think of what his worse half will do to what has been rebuilt since?  Not a pretty picture.
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Bacon is the candy bar of meats!

Only the dead have seen the end of war!

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,431
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2007, 05:35:37 PM »
Quote
Before the beginning of our latest war the head whup in the Army (and I can not remember his name at this time) predicted we'd need 400,000 pairs of boots in Iraq to do the job.


Gen. Shinseki? 

Are mercenaries inherently bad? 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

ilbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,546
    • Bob's blog
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2007, 05:41:57 PM »
I don't see that mercenaries are a whole lot worse than large standing armies. If nothing else, you can shut them down just by turning off the money. Very hard to do that with actual troops.

The minor paperwork violations regarding class III firearms is not a whole lot worse than the many firearms just lost by LE and military agencies on a pretty regular basis. You start to do stuff in any numbers and mistakes happen.
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.

Bogie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,219
  • Hunkered in South St. Louis, right by Route 66
    • Third Rate Pundit
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2007, 05:51:41 PM »
In addition, a lot of the "mercenaries" are essentially support functions. They aren't training soldiers to be both soldiers and computer mechanics - they're importing those.
 
Thing is, I suspect they are forgetting the real reason that Patton went through Europe so fast - We no longer have a "Red Ball Express" that cares beyond "is the letter of the contract fulfilled."
 
Blog under construction

Dannyboy

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,340
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2007, 06:18:06 PM »
I'd really like to know where this 100,000 number comes from.  There may be 100k private contractors in Iraq but I really doubt that there are that many  from Blackwater, Crucible, etc.  Hell, Blackwater is the biggest and I think they only have 1000.
Oh, Lord, please let me be as sanctimonious and self-righteous as those around me, so that I may fit in.

Thor

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,230
  • US Navy (retired)
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2007, 08:06:32 PM »
Nations have use mercenaries for a few millenia. This is nothing new.
" a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand." - Lucius Annaeus

for Military, Vets, & Supporters, check out:
USMILNET

Conservative Discussion Forum


Gewehr98

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,010
  • Yee-haa!
    • Neural Misfires (Blog)
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2007, 08:12:44 PM »
I'm thinking part of that alleged 100K mercenary figure includes support folks like Boeing, Lockheed, Halliburton, etc.

You know, the aircraft mechanic mercenaries, and the chow hall mercenaries.   rolleyes
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"

Bogie

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,219
  • Hunkered in South St. Louis, right by Route 66
    • Third Rate Pundit
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2007, 09:16:36 PM »
Not to mention local cleaning crew and trash hauling mercenaries.

Remember - if you can use numbers to make The Great Satan look bad, it must be news!

Blog under construction

Thor

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,230
  • US Navy (retired)
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2007, 07:34:09 AM »
When we deployed to Desert Shield, we were stuck at a remote location in Abu Dhabi. There were "Pakistani" cooks hired for us after a couple of weeks. (We were "told" that they were Pakistani) A few weeks later, a couple of those cooks were caught tampering with our food. Those two were fired and I THINK they were arrested by the local police. I'm GLAD they are hiring folks from the US and using KBR, etc., to do much of the support stuff.
" a sword never kills anybody; it's a tool in the killer's hand." - Lucius Annaeus

for Military, Vets, & Supporters, check out:
USMILNET

Conservative Discussion Forum


Paddy

  • Guest
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2007, 08:07:51 AM »
It's abuse of power and embezzlement from the U.S. Treasury.  It's purpose is to:

1) Transfer huge sums of public money to private pockets,
2) Evade the rules, chain of command and accountability of the U.S. military,
3) Provide a private army to the POTUS.

King George III would be proud.


MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,778
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2007, 08:56:11 AM »
Baron Von Steuben might disagree.   smiley
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

wmenorr67

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,775
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2007, 04:03:24 PM »
Team Infidel,

KBR has the contracts and does the hiring, but guess where most of those hirees are from.  You guessed it, Iraq mostly.
There are five things, above all else, that make life worth living: a good relationship with God, a good woman, good health, good friends, and a good cigar.

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Bacon is the candy bar of meats!

Only the dead have seen the end of war!

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2007, 04:07:13 PM »
Almost all of our chow hall workers were hajji of some sort. Well, they were at the base across the river from us. On my base we got our meals in big green coolers and all our chow hall workers were cook MOS Marines. sad
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2007, 06:13:15 PM »
Quote
Before the beginning of our latest war the head whup in the Army (and I can not remember his name at this time) predicted we'd need 400,000 pairs of boots in Iraq to do the job.


Gen. Shinseki? 

Are mercenaries inherently bad? 

If they are deployed domestically and are still breathing?  Yes. 
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,431
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2007, 06:30:10 PM »
Are mercenaries inherently bad? 

If they are deployed domestically and are still breathing?  Yes. 


Well, yeah.   smiley
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Paddy

  • Guest
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2007, 06:37:12 PM »
Quote
Before the beginning of our latest war the head whup in the Army (and I can not remember his name at this time) predicted we'd need 400,000 pairs of boots in Iraq to do the job.


Gen. Shinseki? 

Are mercenaries inherently bad? 

Quote
If they are deployed domestically and are still breathing?  Yes. 

But a foreign country is ok?  When did we become Imperialists?



Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,431
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2007, 07:07:38 PM »
We became imperialists when we allowed private firms to provide security overseas. 

You are all now dumber for having read this thread. 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

RJMcElwain

  • friend
  • New Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 66
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2007, 05:09:08 AM »
Today, on the news, they were talking about the number of Blackwater "contractors" that were hired/deployed to New Orleans following Katrina to maintain order. In the discussion about using them, the word vigilantism came up.

As I recall, Billy The Kid was hired by the government to maintain order at one time, and he and his gang were called "regulators".

Bob
Robert J. McElwain
Practical Libertarian

"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." ~Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950)

Iapetus

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2007, 08:14:31 AM »
I don't see that mercenaries are a whole lot worse than large standing armies. If nothing else, you can shut them down just by turning off the money. Very hard to do that with actual troops.

Or alternatively, find yourself having to deal with a large group of well-armed people who suddenly find themselves out of work and pissed off, and who lack the sense of national loyalty that proper soldiers have.

Quote from: Niccolo Machiavelli
I say, then, that the armies with which a prince defends his state are made up of his own troops, or mercenaries, or auxiliaries, or of mixed troops.  Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous.  If a prince holds on to his state by means of mercenary armies, he will never be stable or secure.  Mercenaries are disunited, ambitious, undisciplined, and disloyal.  They are brave with their friends; with their enemies they are cowards... they have no love nor other motive to keep them in the field than a meagre salary, which is not enough to make them want to die for you.  They love being your soldiers when you are not waging war, but when war comes, they either flee or desert...

Mercenary captains are either excellent men, or they are not.  If they are, you cannot trust them, since they will always aspire to their own greatness, either by oppressing you... or by oppressing others against your intent; but if the captain is without ability, he usually ruins you...

We see from experience that only princes and their republics armed with their own troops make very great progress, and that mercenaries cause nothing but damage.


NB, by "auxiliaries", he means foreign troops sent by a foreign state, in response to a request for aid.  He disapproves of these because while (unlike mercenaries) they can be very effective, relying on them can leave you at the mercy of the state that sent them.

NB2, although off-topic for this discussion, I'll just mention that Machiavelli cites Switzerland and Sparta as examples of states whose long-standing freedom was a result of their well-armed citizenry.

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: A Mercenary Military?
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2007, 08:18:04 AM »
Another report out mentioned that DynCorp was picking up some of the slack.

Whee. DynCorp, who was found to have been running a child sex ring in Bosnia. They make Blackwater look like saints.