Chiappa Adding RFID Chips To Their Guns

[TechMan]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/07/29/chiappa-adding-rfid-chips-to-their-guns-mks-suggests-concerned-consumers-wrap-the-revolver-and-their-head-in-aluminum-foil/

Evidently Chiappa is adding an RFID chip under the grips.  MKS (Importer of Chippa into the USA) issues a condescending press release that mocks gun bloggers and concerned owners.  Chippa/MKS claim that the RFID chip is just for inventory purposes.

I can see that this is not going to go well for Chippa/MKS.

[GigaBuist]

I applaud their use of RFID in inventory control.  That's good thinking.

They farking bungled up the PR about it though.  Holy crap.  All they had to do was express concern over the matter, explain why they do it, and give nice instructions on how to rip it out.

And they didn't.  Idiots.

[TechMan]

GigaBuist,
If it was for inventory control, why not attach the RFID chip to the gun via a small cable, so it could be removed by the eventual owner?

[Regolith]

GigaBuist,
If it was for inventory control, why not attach the RFID chip to the gun via a small cable, so it could be removed by the eventual owner?

Cheaper and easier to glue it on.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

very easy to remove too assuming the tinfoil hat isn't too tight and cutting off blood flow

[vaskidmark]

very easy to remove too assuming the tinfoil hat isn't too tight and cutting off blood flow

If you backtrack the story (sorry, I lost it but look on http://elmtreeforge.blogspot.com/ - I think Firehand had it) there are supposed to be two (2) RIFD chips - one easily located under the grip panel and another one "buried" inside the metal.  Getting the easy-to-locate one is not going to solve the problem.  Getting the embedded one out could be problematic.

stay safe.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

not seeing anything about one buried in the metal

[BryanP]

If you're really worried about it, pop it in a microwave oven for 10 seconds. 

[longeyes]

Interesting guns.  Maybe this will force the price down...

[KD5NRH]

Sounds like a perfect opportunity for an anti-gun employer that already has RFID inventory control to expand their reader locations a bit...

[PTK]

My HK USP 45-T has one, too. Never bothered me.

[seeker_two]

I applaud their use of RFID in inventory control.  That's good thinking.

They farking bungled up the PR about it though.  Holy crap.  All they had to do was express concern over the matter, explain why they do it, and give nice instructions on how to rip it out.

And they didn't.  Idiots.

Agreed....the PR gaff will hurt them more than the chip ever did.....maybe they should have some ads apologizing to their potential customers....narrated by Lon Horiuchi, of course.....  

[AJ Dual]

If you're really worried about it, pop it in a microwave oven for 10 seconds.  

The guts of a disposable camera with flash will also do an admirable job of rendering them inert.

But yeah, MKS is bungling this. Politely harping on inventory control and recent notable cases of certain gun stores failing audits miserably and being big media/ATF stinks would have diffused most of this. And as stated, some sort of back-channel instructions to remove the RFID for anyone truly concerned would have alleviated the rest.

Personally, I kind of wish I had RFID's embedded in all my firearms and could just inventory them all with a single click.  

Sounds like a perfect opportunity for an anti-gun employer that already has RFID inventory control to expand their reader locations a bit...

They'd have to know what the codes for only one particular brand of relatively new and rare revolver that had the RFID's in them were, then presume that the person carrying against policy hadn't disabled it. Then invest in readers that work at long ranges, not the common kind in security gates and door security plates that are only effective at a few inches.

If RFID's are proposed as law, then I'll worry. But currently it's a pretty long chain of low probability events that have to happen.

[AZRedhawk44]

I wouldn't be buying one anyways.

The low barrel configuration means that any over-pressure 'splodeyness goes into your trigger hand rather than through the top strap.

Me?  I'd rather have 5 other cylinders in the way to protect my hand from the potential kablooey-load.  I'll keep with top-barreled revolvers.

That don't have wind-up ports in the side.

Or RFID under the grips.

Or offered in pimpalicious gold and titanium but have QC issues.

[AJ Dual]

I wouldn't be buying one anyways.

The low barrel configuration means that any over-pressure 'splodeyness goes into your trigger hand rather than through the top strap.

Me?  I'd rather have 5 other cylinders in the way to protect my hand from the potential kablooey-load.  I'll keep with top-barreled revolvers.

That don't have wind-up ports in the side.

Or RFID under the grips.

Or offered in pimpalicious gold and titanium but have QC issues.

Eh... I can't imagine that the danger is any worse than a polymer framed automatic, unless you're messing with barn-burner handloads.

QC.. well, I will admit the Chiappa is no S&W, pre lock, or post... but the recoil and handling characterisitcs are amazing. I've shot one that a FFL member of my gun club brought to a bowling pin shoot. Besides the pin tables, we set up 20-odd pins on the berm on the other side for people to free-shoot and have fun waiting on their turns. I put 30 rounds through it. Some he brought for everyone, and some of my own .357 I'd brought for my S&W 686.

It makes 125 gr .357's feel like light .38 wadcutters, and .38's feel like 22LR. Except for the fact they'd have wanted $1000 for them, I really wish S&W had licensed the technology.

[KD5NRH]

They'd have to know what the codes for only one particular brand of relatively new and rare revolver that had the RFID's in them were, then presume that the person carrying against policy hadn't disabled it.

Or just scan everything within range and start searching until they find interesting stuff.  That's the sort of thing a lot of geeks might do anyway just for fun; see who's got Abba's Greatest Hits, etc.

Then invest in readers that work at long ranges, not the common kind in security gates and door security plates that are only effective at a few inches.

And why not?  Just put in the portal type "to reduce inventory shrinkage."  That might even be the real reason they put them in, until somebody in IT starts playing around and looking to see what some of the non-inventory codes going through might be.

[AJ Dual]

Or just scan everything within range and start searching until they find interesting stuff.  That's the sort of thing a lot of geeks might do anyway just for fun; see who's got Abba's Greatest Hits, etc.

And why not?  Just put in the portal type "to reduce inventory shrinkage."  That might even be the real reason they put them in, until somebody in IT starts playing around and looking to see what some of the non-inventory codes going through might be.

I'd LOVE to see them try.

This tech is not all that sophisticated.

http://hackedgadgets.com/2006/05/09/homemade-rfid-reader/

http://cq.cx/proxmark3.pl

http://www.provantage.com/printronix-254388-003~7PRNT0R7.htm

If it starts getting abused, the 4Chan/Anonymous, Slashdot etc. types will have a field day. 

Making a sidewalk booth at a street fair that's giving away hats, LED keychain lights, vanity branded USB thumb drives etc. and all are embedded with RFID codes for explosives, dangerous/volatile chemicals, guns, small theft-prone items like expensive watches or jewelry, or anything similar would be a fun place to start. 

[Perd Hapley]

It makes 125 gr .357's feel like light .38 wadcutters,

Like any other medium-sized revolver? 

[230RN]

^

[AJ Dual]

^

Just chest puffery. Can safely be ignored.
 

[sanglant]

the reason most companies are going to RFID based inventory isn't really inventory. employees stealing has skyrocketed lately(ie. the last 10 years or so) by sticking a reader(doesn't take much of a scanner to cover a door, or loading dock) and camera at each exit, you have video evidence of the crooks.

it's where a lot of the stuff at the swap meets across the country is coming from. once they start using writable RFID chips* we're going to be seeing some nasty cases.

as you're paying for the stuff, it's "tagged" paid.

there was even a dude local that was selling giftcards for half of what they were worth. no idea how he was getting them activated. oh, and we're talking over a thousand bucks worth a weekend.

[CNYCacher]

once they start using writable RFID chips* we're going to be seeing some nasty cases.

as you're paying for the stuff, it's "tagged" paid.

The stuff isn't changed, the entry in the database is marked as paid.  If you are thinking that a thief is going to be able to pick something off the shelf, rewrite the tag and mark it as "paid" and walk out the door, then I don't think it works like that.

Let's compare barcodes with RFID.  The sheer number of different available RFID tags is so large, that manufacturers could put a different number on each individual widget that goes out.  In the past and present, each copy of an item gets the same barcode, lets say for example that 6789054321 is the barcode for Levis Boot Cut Jeans  every single pair of Levis Boot Cut Jeans will have the same barcode: 6789054321.
In RFID land, you have so many codes to play with, that you could just say "Every RFID tag between 6789054321000000000001 and 6789054321999999999999 will be Levis Boot Cut Jeans" and then you could have 1,000,000,000,000 pairs of jeans out there each with its own unique tag.  You ship a box f jeans to walmart and they get scanned coming in the loading dock.  Each article has its own entry in a vast database.  They are all marked with a particular status "In the stockroom", "On the shelf", "Off the shelf" (the shelves will have short-range readers*), and finally, "Paid for".  Anything going out the front door is scanned and identified.  If it's status in the database is anything other than "paid for" alarms go off.

* I used to work in a business tied with retail research and development.  Spent a lot of time in futuristic mockups of retail environments.  Multi-million-dollar projects built solely for purposes of figuring out how to convince a shopper to spend $0.50 more on razor blades or what-have-you.  RFID-enabled shelving exists and is probably coming to a store near you.  I was shown a demonstration where as I took small, shoplifting-prone objects off a shelf, a handheld computer nearby ticked off current shelf inventory, warning fake employees to restock.  I also was shown how if I took more than 5 items off the shelf at once, the same computer lit up red with "Potential Shoplifter" and a picture of my face taken from a camera I couldn't even find after I knew my picture had been taken.  This was 6 years ago.

[sanglant]

Many applications such as passport control, transportation and industrial automation have already benefited from the read/write features of older RFID systems. “Reliable, field re-writability will be a key feature for the future of RFID adoption,” said Christopher Boone, programme manager for retail/wholesale/CPG research at IDC. “Using tag memory to access localised data from tags and to write new data to tags at the edge of the RFID network will provide additional value.”

http://www.secureidnews.com/2004/04/02/impinj-launches-long-range-field-rewritable-rfid

and after that

Tego's UHF Gen2 tags offer up to 32KB of memory. This is interesting but does not quite qualify the product for the RFIT designation. What does qualify the tags as RFIT is that some also offer an e-Paper (reprogrammable) display. The display is programmed at the same time as the tag and can provide human-readable information drawn directly from the tag. The usefulness of this application extends from manufacturing through retail shelf tags. The more important implication, however, is that with a larger and perhaps higher resolution display, these tags could display a 2D bar code or matrix symbol along with the human readable, thereby eliminating the need to print a separate bar code label on items having a rewritable RFID tag. For returnable containers and other reusable items, the availability of a single tag with both RFID and bar code could provide a transition between RFID and bar code technologies in the supply chain or even the retail space (where mobile phone cameras or RFID readers might be used to read a shelf or product tag to access a web-based service for more information about a product).

http://www.aimglobal.org/members/news/templates/template.aspx?articleid=3482&zoneid=24

just because you haven't seen it yet. isn't a good reason to say something can't be done.

[KD5NRH]

Making a sidewalk booth at a street fair that's giving away hats, LED keychain lights, vanity branded USB thumb drives etc. and all are embedded with RFID codes for explosives, dangerous/volatile chemicals, guns, small theft-prone items like expensive watches or jewelry, or anything similar would be a fun place to start. 

And we're not already doing this, why?

Heck, just random junk tagged as AA batteries would play merry havoc at WalMart, etc.

[AZRedhawk44]

And we're not already doing this, why?

Heck, just random junk tagged as AA batteries would play merry havoc at WalMart, etc.

You have to have a knowledge of the unique RFID codes in the Walmart store database.

Each unique product on the shelf with an RFID is individually track-able.  Without knowing the RFID code for a product, you cannot make a "false positive" event happen with a RFID of your own.

With your own scanner, you COULD scan a (for example) 52" plasma TV, find the RFID for that one piece of merchandise, program your own RFID in your pocket to clone that 52" TV, then walk out the door and make a scene with the security folks.  Examination of the computer system would show you have taken a 52" TV with serial number XXXYYY1212 through the door.  But video surveillance would show that you obviously don't have the TV stuffed down your pants.

However, video surveillance would also show that you somehow scanned the RFID of a product and programmed a keyfob RFID with your PDA or other device, and they'd probably try to get you for some sort of digital trespass, access of a "secured" system, or industrial espionage or some other charge.