Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Ben on August 01, 2014, 04:58:54 PM
-
Taking a page from the Obama administration social media playbook, but doing it better:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa57.foxnews.com%2Fglobal.fncstatic.com%2Fstatic%2Fmanaged%2Fimg%2FPolitics%2F876%2F493%2Ftwitter_russiapic.jpg%3Fve%3D1%26amp%3Btl%3D1&hash=a39f4ed6313876ae4d4a2d56b1521561308ba51a)
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/08/01/russian-official-burns-obama-with-putin-leopard-pic/
-
There really is no man in the world that is as overcompensatory as Putin is. The Kremlin must be one giant super-amalgam of closets.
-
There really is no man in the world that is as overcompensatory as Putin is. The Kremlin must be one giant super-amalgam of closets.
And yet he still pwns Obama.
-
Putin just takes it to 11.
An image comparison of George W. Bush on a mountain bike or Mitt Romney hiking with his grandchildren against Obama doing...pretty much anything makes him look like an effete milquetoast. Hell, John Kerry duck-hunting or windsurfing makes Obama look like Urkel.
-
And yet he still pwns Obama.
He really doesnt. Obama has many faults, but he wont go down in history as one of your worst ever leaders. Putin on the other hand is quietly overseeing a defeat the likes of which Russia hasnt seen since the Golden Horde was in existence. Once Ukraine calms down and ends up in the EU, it will be Belarus after that.
-
He really doesnt. Obama has many faults, but he wont go down in history as one of your worst ever leaders. Putin on the other hand is quietly overseeing a defeat the likes of which Russia hasnt seen since the Golden Horde was in existence. Once Ukraine calms down and ends up in the EU, it will be Belarus after that.
You don't think? I wouldn't bet on it. His cutting and running in Stan and the mid east is still brewing up, and I think will be way worse then the Ukraine. He snatched an epic defeat from the jaws of victory in Iraq.
-
You don't think? I wouldn't bet on it. His cutting and running in Stan and the mid east is still brewing up, and I think will be way worse then the Ukraine. He snatched an epic defeat from the jaws of victory in Iraq.
er - "the jaws of victory in Iraq"? Really?
The worst decision Obama made in foriegn policy terms was to get involved in Libya, and then following that to not be the one to say that going into Syria was an idiotic idea (allowing Ed Miliband his one positive achievement as Labour leader to date).
Withdrawing from Iraq was questionable, but nowhere near as bad as going in there in the first place. As for Afghanistan, there is no political statement that has more historical justification than "we should really leave Afghanistan"; the place is a mess and has always been a mess.
-
You don't think? I wouldn't bet on it. His cutting and running in Stan and the mid east is still brewing up, and I think will be way worse then the Ukraine. He snatched an epic defeat from the jaws of victory in Iraq.
LOL
You think there was any kind of jaws of victory in Iraq? Since the removal of saddam, that place was DESTINED for chaos the moment we left, no matter who was in power. Largely, i might add, to decisions made very early on in the occupation by the BUSH Administration.
There are plenty of reasons to dislike Obama. We need not manufacture them.
-
He really doesnt. Obama has many faults, but he wont go down in history as one of your worst ever leaders. Putin on the other hand is quietly overseeing a defeat the likes of which Russia hasnt seen since the Golden Horde was in existence. Once Ukraine calms down and ends up in the EU, it will be Belarus after that.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
-
LOL
You think there was any kind of jaws of victory in Iraq? Since the removal of saddam, that place was DESTINED for chaos the moment we left, no matter who was in power. Largely, i might add, to decisions made very early on in the occupation by the BUSH Administration.
There are plenty of reasons to dislike Obama. We need not manufacture them.
Iraq was doing pretty well in 2008. If Obama had stuck it out, got a agreement on forces and had actually paid attention to the evolution of ISIS I do think Iraq might have had a good chance to come out the right side.
-
Iraq was doing pretty well in 2008. If Obama had stuck it out, got a agreement on forces and had actually paid attention to the evolution of ISIS I do think Iraq might have had a good chance to come out the right side.
Iraq was "doing pretty well" only in the respect that "massive security crackdowns and the surge" were pacifying the population. ANY unit that relaxed, got hit hard as a result. It's precisely why Diwaniyah had a brief period of chaos again around that timeframe... because the folks who came in and took responsibility for that area figured "it's pacified, let's back off patrols and searches and etc etc"
They got chewed up pretty good before they tightened the screws again.
I was there for the surge. There was no illusions in the minds of those on the ground that the moment we backed off, chaos would descend again.
-
Iraq or no Iraq, Obama will be judged the worst president in history.
I'd list all of his disasters, but I don't have all night.
-
Iraq was "doing pretty well" only in the respect that "massive security crackdowns and the surge" were pacifying the population. ANY unit that relaxed, got hit hard as a result. It's precisely why Diwaniyah had a brief period of chaos again around that timeframe... because the folks who came in and took responsibility for that area figured "it's pacified, let's back off patrols and searches and etc etc"
They got chewed up pretty good before they tightened the screws again.
I was there for the surge. There was no illusions in the minds of those on the ground that the moment we backed off, chaos would descend again.
Pretty much all one needs to know about Iraq, other than all of our blood and treasure spent was absolutely wasted.
-
Iraq was "doing pretty well" only in the respect that "massive security crackdowns and the surge" were pacifying the population. ANY unit that relaxed, got hit hard as a result. It's precisely why Diwaniyah had a brief period of chaos again around that timeframe... because the folks who came in and took responsibility for that area figured "it's pacified, let's back off patrols and searches and etc etc"
They got chewed up pretty good before they tightened the screws again.
I was there for the surge. There was no illusions in the minds of those on the ground that the moment we backed off, chaos would descend again.
Yep, I bought the bs that once folks in Iraq were "freed" from their dictatorial strongman and allowed to have self determination that they would build a state similar to Turkey.
Bunch of statist bullcrap peddled from both sides of the aisle but primarily from the right.
-
I dunno. I think the ongoing meme between president kgb and president clownshoes is pretty funny.
-
Iraq was doing pretty well in 2008. If Obama had stuck it out, got a agreement on forces and had actually paid attention to the evolution of ISIS I do think Iraq might have had a good chance to come out the right side.
Obama better call Kenny Loggins.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi149.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs54%2FBitFreakazoid%2FFunny%2Farcher_crossFit_dangerzone_meme_zps0b12a240.jpg&hash=ca5302c34c6b60b9b5c6f937f55799439efd24e5)
-
Iraq was "doing pretty well" only in the respect that "massive security crackdowns and the surge" were pacifying the population. ANY unit that relaxed, got hit hard as a result. It's precisely why Diwaniyah had a brief period of chaos again around that timeframe... because the folks who came in and took responsibility for that area figured "it's pacified, let's back off patrols and searches and etc etc"
They got chewed up pretty good before they tightened the screws again.
I was there for the surge. There was no illusions in the minds of those on the ground that the moment we backed off, chaos would descend again.
Yep, I bought the bs that once folks in Iraq were "freed" from their dictatorial strongman and allowed to have self determination that they would build a state similar to Turkey.
Bunch of statist bullcrap peddled from both sides of the aisle but primarily from the right.
Given that we pulled out after we established peace, but before we established civilization, we'll really never know how Iraq would have fared, had we done it right, will we?
-
Obama better call Kenny Loggins.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi149.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs54%2FBitFreakazoid%2FFunny%2Farcher_crossFit_dangerzone_meme_zps0b12a240.jpg&hash=ca5302c34c6b60b9b5c6f937f55799439efd24e5)
Like those cartoons, dontcha? Maybe Superman would have been a better one to conjure up. [tinfoil]
-
Given that we pulled out after we established peace, but before we established civilization, we'll really never know how Iraq would have fared, had we done it right, will we?
We didn't establish peace. We established control. And, even at the calmest times, if you think that 3-4 IEDs per day and along route Irish and complex attacks on camp Echo was peace, then you have a warped definition of peace.
Saddam had control. Peace through control does not persist once the control is removed.
-
We didn't establish peace. We established control. And, even at the calmest times, if you think that 3-4 IEDs per day and along route Irish and complex attacks on camp Echo was peace, then you have a warped definition of peace.
Saddam had control. Peace through control does not persist once the control is removed.
Given that we pulled out after we established peace control, but before we established civilization, we'll really never know how Iraq would have fared, had we done it right, will we?
Happy now?
I'll say again: we will never know how Iraq might have turned out if we'd done it right.
I know that there are people here that don't believe it's ever possible to turn mess like Iraq into something that might actually function, but I will maintain that if we can do it, other human beings on the planet can do it too.
We do not have special DNA in America; we're human like anyone else. We're screw-ups like everyone else as well.
I think I would agree with one thing; if we're NOT willing to do it right, we'd better learn how to keep our idiot mitts out of the rest of the world's business.
-
Like those cartoons, dontcha? Maybe Superman would have been a better one to conjure up. [tinfoil]
Archer isn't a cartoon. It's real life. Don't make me send Woodhouse out for the coarse sand...
-
Archer isn't a cartoon. Don't make me send Woodhouse out for the coarse sand...
Somehow he lacks the definition of a real human being, though .......
-
Happy now?
I'll say again: we will never know how Iraq might have turned out if we'd done it right.
I know that there are people here that don't believe it's ever possible to turn mess like Iraq into something that might actually function, but I will maintain that if we can do it, other human beings on the planet can do it too.
We do not have special DNA in America; we're human like anyone else. We're screw-ups like everyone else as well.
I think I would agree with one thing; if we're NOT willing to do it right, we'd better learn how to keep our idiot mitts out of the rest of the world's business.
Except when peace is attained through nothing but control, and has no aspect of self-determination, it's entirely reasonable, even EXPECTED, for that peace to falter the moment control is removed. There are some serious differences between our history and what was going on in iraq during the sectarian violence. Ideological, religious, and the simple bloodthirst that is radical islam.
Lots of folks are saying 'we didnt do it right, we should have done it right"
but so far, no one has been able to articulate what right in that situation would have looked like.
I'm of the opinion that "right" would have involved a hell of a lot more involvement by the iraqis, versus the constant hand-holding we did. The iraqi police and army are full of cowards who frequently moved behind american positions instead of doing some ass kicking themselves. It's a mindset difference that's pretty significant.
And, your original statement which I replied to, "He snatched an epic defeat from the jaws of victory in Iraq.", is simply preposterous. Again, most of the supremely dumb decisions were made, and consequences irrevocably present, well before he took office.
-
And, your original statement which I replied to, "He snatched an epic defeat from the jaws of victory in Iraq.", is simply preposterous. Again, most of the supremely dumb decisions were made, and consequences irrevocably present, well before he took office.
That was me. I blame posting a bit intoxicated, on a tablet so I didn't type much. You're right "from the jaws of victory" is a bit over the top. More like "from a place where victory had gotten a good scent and might have tracked it down in a bit".
I have talked, I think, quite a bit on this board about what Iraq looked like in 08-09, what it looks like now, and some of what I feel the causes were. By Jan. 2009, Iraq was not an easy situation to solve. Many things had gone a little off the tracks, and the Iraqi's were making serious noises about wanting us out. But on the plus side it was pretty much under control. THat control had to be maintained by heavy military force, but we were doing that.
I remember talking with some smart officers during the election (I was deployed for it) and you will recall that "End the War" was a big topic during that election. Sitting there we talked over plans to end the war, from making Iraq a full on colony (kinda an oil rich Puerto Rico), to installing a leader strong enough to Saddam the place while being charismatic enough to fool the west, to just carving it up like Churchill did, but with more concern being paid to tribal and cultural boundaries. The last could throw the Kurds a bone, and we all liked the Kurds.
We didn't have any foolproof ideas, but we were pretty sure that whatever happened, no one would be stupid enough to just.....leave. Everyone knew al-Maliki wasn't ready to hold the place together by himself, no matter what he thought, and we had just spent all that effort, blood and treasure to bring some semblance of control to the place. To just..........leave.
That lack of coherent plan, and letting all of our effort end up wasted is what I was poorly alluding to in my first post. There's never any guarantee in life, certainly not in war, but some effort to try and preserve the control and order that we had fought for would seem to have been in order. Even if it failed.
On the actual subject of my first post: Obama's legacy. I think once the black has worn off a little he'll easily be in the top 5 worst presidents we've ever had.
-
Woops my bad.
Tired. I work nights and haven't had more than five hours sleep a night this week
Will post more later
-
I'll say again: we will never know how Iraq might have turned out if we'd done it right.
There never has been a way to do it right.
Attempts to forcibly build what you might think of as civilization in the Middle East have consistently failed. Unless and until enough people over there decide they want this kind of civilization, it ain't gonna happen.
-
There never has been a way to do it right.
Attempts to forcibly build what you might think of as civilization in the Middle East have consistently failed. Unless and until enough people over there decide they want this kind of civilization, it ain't gonna happen.
I accept that we didn't do it right, but I can not accept that "There never has been a way to do it right."
Israel seems to have established a pretty respectable civilization in the middle east in spite of being under near constant attack by terrorist groups and neighbors who despise Jews.
Many of the political boundaries in the region are artificial and have been manipulated by the British... perhaps redrawing them (...AGAIN *sigh!*) more closely along ethnic lines might help. Finding out how to redistribute profits from the region's oil production and other activities might be ... problematic. >:D
The iraqi police and army are full of cowards who frequently moved behind american positions instead of doing some ass kicking themselves. It's a mindset difference that's pretty significant.
But is it impossible to overcome?
It's a bit difficult to accept that Iraq is full of "cowards" and that there simply is NO ONE who is willing to step forward to the task?
However, I will say that since Fitz brought this up, I did hear it reported on Fox News' "O'Rielly Factor" that one reason ISIS was making such advances was that the soldiers defending Iraqi positions broke and ran. Given ISIS is actually an "army" rather than a ragtag band of terrorists at this point, I am not saying I blame them.
O'Rielly is peeved that we aren't using air power to bomb ISIS as it advances, he claims this is possible (which I agree with) and he claims it shows the Iraqis they're not alone (which seems reasonable, though perhaps questionable).
Those with military backgrounds may be better able to answer but isn't breaking and running in the face of danger something that can be addressed by better training?
If so then we didn't do a helluva lot of training, it seems.
Anyhow, we're out, and it seems we're out "for good," and we're not going to do anything about ISIS, not even attack it from the air as Bill O'Rielly suggests. Somehow the ISIS soldiers HAVE managed to be trained, or indoctrinated, or scared into, fighting ruthlessly and conquering. Perhaps we should have let them train the Iraqis. ooops. Sorry, that was snarky. And probably insulting too.
Lots of folks are saying 'we didnt do it right, we should have done it right"
but so far, no one has been able to articulate what right in that situation would have looked like.
And, unfortunatly I guess I won't be the first one to do it.
I do think one characteristic of "right" would have been staying longer. Another would be dealing with ISIS in a ruthlessly effective manner (that right there seems to remove Obama from the equation, IMHO).
I don't know how you take people who run from danger and turn them into people who will fight a ruthless enemy save maybe to point out just who and what they're supposedly defending: wives, daughters, parents, sisters, brothers, grandparents....people they love? IS that going to work? Apparently trying to get them to fight for their way of life doesn't work as they have very little vested in that, from what I'm hearing.
If I can't figure out "what 'right' looks like" then all that amounts to is one more wise @$$ on the innernetz spewing opinions around like diamonds before swine.
So what?
But I will say one more thing; if our political leaders in D.C. are either disinterested, detached elitists like Obama, or clueless jackwagons, who can't amongst all those DC think tanks and generals and professors, etc., figure out how to do it "right" we'd better start our defense programs up full-tilt again and keep our troops home, fighting these half-arsed wars and (I use the term advisedly) "nation building" is getting way too expensive esp. considering the far less than stellar outcomes.
-
There really is no man in the world that is as overcompensatory as Putin is. The Kremlin must be one giant super-amalgam of closets.
Yeah not so much. Putin is much more in touch with joe average around the globe or in russia than is bho. What the effete in the west see as cone pone overcompensating buffoonery most on the globe see as reasonable strong man behavior.
If putin takes it to 11 check out chechnyas strong man. He could give pres camacho a dun for his money.
-
Yeah not so much. Putin is much more in touch with joe average around the globe or in russia than is bho. What the effete in the west see as cone pone overcompensating buffoonery most on the globe see as reasonable strong man behavior.
If putin takes it to 11 check out chechnyas strong man. He could give pres camacho a dun for his money.
This was part of my point in the OP. The ruskies seem to have beat us at our own Twitter game and in using our own memes. In the meantime, what's going on with our Twitter diplomacy? #Putin shaking in his boots yet? How about "#setourgirlsfree"? I guess it was good for a FLOTUS publicity photo, but that week has come and gone, and I guess we don't care about girls being raped and tortured this week.
We're using Twitter as a diplomatic tool, the Russians are making fun of us for it.
-
There really is no man in the world that is as overcompensatory as Putin is. The Kremlin must be one giant super-amalgam of closets.
Yeah not so much. Putin is much more in touch with joe average around the globe or in russia than is bho. What the effete in the west see as cone pone overcompensating buffoonery most on the globe see as reasonable strong man behavior.
If putin takes it to 11 check out chechnyas strong man. He could give pres camacho a dun for his money.
-
Yeah not so much. Putin is much more in touch with joe average around the globe or in russia than is bho. What the effete in the west see as cone pone overcompensating buffoonery most on the globe see as reasonable strong man behavior.
If putin takes it to 11 check out chechnyas strong man. He could give pres camacho a dun for his money.
Yeah not so much. Putin is much more in touch with joe average around the globe or in russia than is bho. What the effete in the west see as cone pone overcompensating buffoonery most on the globe see as reasonable strong man behavior.
If putin takes it to 11 check out chechnyas strong man. He could give pres camacho a dun for his money.
Longest double tap ever. Congratulations sir.
-
I accept that we didn't do it right, but I can not accept that "There never has been a way to do it right."
Israel seems to have established a pretty respectable civilization in the middle east in spite of being under near constant attack by terrorist groups and neighbors who despise Jews.
Many of the political boundaries in the region are artificial and have been manipulated by the British... perhaps redrawing them (...AGAIN *sigh!*) more closely along ethnic lines might help. Finding out how to redistribute profits from the region's oil production and other activities might be ... problematic. >:D
But is it impossible to overcome?
The key here is "Israel did it". Yes, they had outside help, but the push was from within, from the people who actually live there, or came there and stayed. Same with Turkey - it was built to be a modern country because Turks wanted it.
In Iraq, and Afghanistan, and Central Asian ex-USSR countries the push to change was external. The people on the ground didn't want any of it, didn't start it, resisted it until the external control got overwhelming, and reverted as soon as this control weakened.
You are on the right track recognizing that the country boundaries are arbitrary. However, you don't go far enough. It's not the ethnic or religious that matters most, you are still thinking too large. Family/clan allegiance is first, ethnic is second, religious maybe third, and country is somewhere after that. Iraq was essentially Saddam's family, that's why all the high posts were filled with his relatives.
-
I think agricola may not be as familiar with BHO's career of scandal, mendacity, incompetence, corruption, and just general haughty disdain for his nation, and its people. He probably can't understand just how divisive the man has purposed to be.
As a side note, since we're sorta comparing the last 2 administrations, I was thinking recently of the irony that Bush was derided for a lack of "curiosity," because he didn't read every newspaper article that some other people read. Now, the whiz-kid they chose to replace him hasn't the curiosity to know what goes on in his own executive branch. :rofl:
-
Iraq or no Iraq, Obama will be judged the worst president in history.
I'd list all of his disasters, but I don't have all night.
He's trying to edge out Grant for his pic on the $50 bill.
-
I think agricola may not be as familiar with BHO's career of scandal, mendacity, incompetence, corruption, and just general haughty disdain for his nation, and its people. He probably can't understand just how divisive the man has purposed to be.
You forget that we had Tony "Middle East Peace Envoy" Blair for ten years. Anything Obama has done, Blair has done it worse.
-
Longest double tap ever. Congratulations sir.
We all have our talents.
-
You forget that we had Tony "Middle East Peace Envoy" Blair for ten years. Anything Obama has done, Blair has done it worse.
Perhaps, but you're probably not as familiar with the particulars of the administration of Mr. Obama. I fear it is worse than you know, and I suspect only Americans can really appreciate the man himself, and just why we loathe him so.