Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Cliffh on May 13, 2023, 10:24:40 PM
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Last year I setup a 14gal gravity feed fuel dispenser; mainly for DW to refill her riding mower. It's working well, with one exception - filling it. So far I've only had to fill it once and I'd rather not use that technique again. The fill cap is just over 6' off the ground, which required standing in the bed of the truck while holding a 5gal can shoulder high & pouring in the gas. Not fun.
This year I'd like to use something mechanical to move the gas from the can on the ground to the fill cap. Looking around on Amazon and eBay isn't coming up with much. The $30 range is a "stick" with a battery operated pump on the end in the can. These get mixed reviews, many stating "you get what you pay for". Around $50 gets a 12v pump that isn't rated for gasoline. I thought about using a 12v pump designed for automotive use, but they don't seem to offer an adequate flow rate, 60gph would be acceptable.
If pumping the fuel looks to be too complicated/expensive/PITA, I can redesign the platform it's on to allow the dispenser to be raised & lowered by rope & pulley or winch (hand crank or electric).
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northern tool offers some fuel transfer options starting around $130 for a 14 gal fuel caddy.
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I use a $10 inline generic electric fuel pump for such things. IE https://www.amazon.com/Electric-Universal-Pressure-Transfer-Carburetor/dp/B08PY7V2MM
It's not fast, but works well for me and was both rated for fuel, and cheap. You could parallel two if you wanted 60gpm, but now it's a bit of a contraption.
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I use a $10 inline generic electric fuel pump for such things. IE https://www.amazon.com/Electric-Universal-Pressure-Transfer-Carburetor/dp/B08PY7V2MM
It's not fast, but works well for me and was both rated for fuel, and cheap. You could parallel two if you wanted 60gpm, but now it's a bit of a contraption.
TYPO ALERT! 60gpm would be awesome, but the pumps are rated at 30gph each. Still not bad - two pumps in parallel would empty a 5 gallon can in 5 minutes.
I'd look real hard at these - cheap pumps rated for GASOLINE don't seem to be quite as common as you'd think. I wouldn't use a "fuel transfer" pump labeled just for kerosene or diesel.
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In the price range you seem to be looking, I've had success with the little impeller pumps that chuck into an electric drill.
Getting the motor out of it let's them spend the limited resources a $15 retail gets you on a pump that works close to advertised.
Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/lzndeal-Electric-Diesels-Self-Priming-Transfer/dp/B08BJ5RSTN/
Short of that any of the hotrod oriented "high flow" fuel pumps will do what you want reliability for $60-$100 plus a switch and hoses. Amazon search "high flow inline fuel pump"
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TYPO ALERT! 60gpm would be awesome, but the pumps are rated at 30gph each. Still not bad - two pumps in parallel would empty a 5 gallon can in 5 minutes.
I'd look real hard at these - cheap pumps rated for GASOLINE don't seem to be quite as common as you'd think. I wouldn't use a "fuel transfer" pump labeled just for kerosene or diesel.
Thank you for the correction =)
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Go steam punk old school....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/334627874692
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Something like this?
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/fill-rite-hand-pump-std-3950791
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What we're filling: https://www.amazon.com/Scepter-6792-Duramax-Gallon-Flo-N-Go/dp/B000MT94QA/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2U37LZUAHPVPY&keywords=gasoline+storage+containers&qid=1684112520&sprefix=gasoline+storage%2Caps%2C2382&sr=8-2&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975-8bc7-93deae8f9840
I have modified it by cutting the hose shorter & replacing the plastic handle with one made of aluminum.
At first I was excited when the diesel/oil pump ads popped up, they were looking good. But, I was disappoint when reading the entire description to see they weren't rated for gas. Having seen what the fumes from one cup of gas can do, taking chances with 14gal is a no-go.
The inline pumps - one question asked was if the pump would lift from a can 2' below the pump, the answer was that the pump can pull the fuel up that far. There's no mention of how high it could push the fuel though. If it can push the gas 4' vertically, that would be enough to reach the fill opening. I'll drop a question at Amazon about that. Plumbing and wiring a couple of those in parallel would be easy enough. Since they're low pressure, a floating check valve (similar to what's used on a snorkel) should be enough to work as an auto-shutoff.
The drill operated pumps could be run in parallel also - I've got a few small electric motors and pulleys floating around. One motor, a jack shaft, 6 pulleys, a few bearings, some wire & tubing....
Some of the reviews on auto pumps were saying the pumps are a lot better at pushing than they are at pulling. I'd imagine that a 2' lift wouldn't be too much.
Hand cranked models would require building some sort of mount for them. Just off the top, a flat top four legged tower. The pump mounted to the flat top with some sort of quick release fasteners. Lift the pump, slide the can under, drop the pump into the can, fasten & start cranking.
Y'all have given me some great ideas. Research will have to wait 'till tomorrow, except for the wobble pump. That's likely to lead down a deep rabbit hole, it'll have to wait until the weekend. =D
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Gasoline has a static head pressure of about 3 feet per PSI. So, a cheap inline fuel pump that can produce 2.5 PSI will lift gasoline about 7.5 feet before it runs out of steam. Any of the inexpensive inlines should work in your application with respect to lift.
Mine does fine filling the fuel tank on my TO20 from a 5 gallon can sitting on the ground, I'd guess that at about 4-5 feet of lift.
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Ok, how about, instead of pumping gas up to the fuel donkey, how about you rig something up so that you can lower it to the ground?
A winch type system, or maybe a come along, that you can use to either lift it up to the stand it's on or to actually hang it.
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Lowering it down is likely the best idea if you have that option. Seems like it would be less hassle in the long run.
There are plenty of drum pumps (manual, electric, air driven) that can be used, but most are designed to pump out of 55 gallon drums. I am not sure if they could be adapted to just a 5 gallon can.
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Ok, how about, instead of pumping gas up to the fuel donkey, how about you rig something up so that you can lower it to the ground?
A winch type system, or maybe a come along, that you can use to either lift it up to the stand it's on or to actually hang it.
This could be the way. Depending on how you built your platform and where, build a hoist frame around it that extends out past the platform, get a Harbor Freight chain hoist and trolley for ~$150, and you're good to go.
I feel your pain on lifting 5gal jugs to head height and trying to pour. My stupid tractor has the fill hole at literally the highest point on the tractor. Lifting a 5gal jug to head height, then trying to get the pour spout into the opening with one hand while holding up the jug with the other, is as you say...not fun.
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A lot of electric drill motors make sparks as they run. I'd be real leery of using one where there might be gasoline fumes.
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A lot of electric drill motors make sparks as they run. I'd be real leery of using one where there might be gasoline fumes.
That's why I recommended a manual transfer pump. If you're going to use an electric motor anyway, make sure it is brushless.
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A lot of electric drill motors make sparks as they run. I'd be real leery of using one where there might be gasoline fumes.
Any of this fuel transfer should be happening outside. Even fuel rated pumps aren't actually intrinsically safe in this price range. But your point is well taken, one should think about that.
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Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/lzndeal-Electric-Diesels-Self-Priming-Transfer/dp/B08BJ5RSTN/
The problem with this pump is it is NOT rated for gasoline, just water, diesel, and oil. With an external motor like a corded or cordless drill and what appears to be garden hose connectors, the possibility of a leak is rather high and a spark from the drill's motor would not make for a good day.
This one from Amazon for $23 IS a fuel pump, 12V but still only rated for 35 GPH. It would also let you use gas-resistant fuel lines.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082KKC5Q4/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1?pd_rd_i=B082KKC5Q4&pd_rd_w=gtY21&content-id=amzn1.sym.7b21e0c7-2d6d-4279-a40b-74d2b0593b5a&pf_rd_p=7b21e0c7-2d6d-4279-a40b-74d2b0593b5a&pf_rd_r=YZV5SK8AYMEDAK0P433X&pd_rd_wg=YfH63&pd_rd_r=f9e4efb8-abc2-4dea-8477-7d76ca3cb746&s=automotive&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWxfdGhlbWF0aWM&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE0WVpLR1NMM1FDTzQmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAyODEwMjBMNE0zNU1WVldDNVYmZW5jcnlwdGVkQWRJZD1BMDAwNzAxNTNEVEpSNllONlgzVlkmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWxfdGhlbWF0aWMmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl&th=1
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The problem with this pump is it is NOT rated for gasoline, just water, diesel, and oil. With an external motor like a corded or cordless drill and what appears to be garden hose connectors, the possibility of a leak is rather high and a spark from the drill's motor would not make for a good day.
This one from Amazon for $23 IS a fuel pump, 12V but still only rated for 35 GPH. It would also let you use gas-resistant fuel lines.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082KKC5Q4/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1?pd_rd_i=B082KKC5Q4&pd_rd_w=gtY21&content-id=amzn1.sym.7b21e0c7-2d6d-4279-a40b-74d2b0593b5a&pf_rd_p=7b21e0c7-2d6d-4279-a40b-74d2b0593b5a&pf_rd_r=YZV5SK8AYMEDAK0P433X&pd_rd_wg=YfH63&pd_rd_r=f9e4efb8-abc2-4dea-8477-7d76ca3cb746&s=automotive&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWxfdGhlbWF0aWM&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE0WVpLR1NMM1FDTzQmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAyODEwMjBMNE0zNU1WVldDNVYmZW5jcnlwdGVkQWRJZD1BMDAwNzAxNTNEVEpSNllONlgzVlkmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWxfdGhlbWF0aWMmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl&th=1
I don't know what link you clicked but the one in my post literally says "Gasoline" in the description and has 3/4" hose Barbs for connections. Comes with hose clamps. It's chinese so I won't guarantee the impellor is the right rubber for solvents, but that's a risk you take with any cheap chinese pump. The maker claims it is anyway.
I've successfully used one for gasoline for a year or two with my DeWalt brushless 20V drill.
The one you linked is a fuel pump designed to feed a carburetor with 1/4" hose barbs. It's going to suck as a transfer pump.
YMM, of course, V.
If one is that concerned about sparks from an electric motor, spend the money on a purpose built fuel pump. None of these <$50 Chinese pumps and motors with the volume he's looking for are Intrinsically Safe, I promise.
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I guess if one were that concerned with sparks the easiest thing would be go down to an auto parts store and get an in tank pump out of any fuel injected V-8 from about 1996 on. Wire it to a switch and some battery clamps, hose clamp a 3/8" fuel line on it and drop it in the jerry can on the ground. That'd get you about 45psi and 250ish lph as long as it'll fit through the hole on your can.
Most electric fuel pumps are gasoline cooled anyways.
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I was thinking of something like this. Designed for drums, but it looks like you can shorten the suction tube. Lots of other choices that are similar. Some are expensive.
You might check out a supplier like Grainger as well.
https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Transfer-Aluminum-corrosion-resistant/dp/B0BQRCKYMC/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?crid=6SVPLINFE2WJ&keywords=drum+pump+5+gallon&qid=1684201080&sprefix=drum+pump+%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-3-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFPTjhGVU1ZSU5WMDImZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA1MTg1MDVTRkRaNEw3OUxKVlcmZW5jcnlwdGVkQWRJZD1BMDYwNTA3NDJFV0FaUEFVRE43SDMmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl
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Do you have something to provide a level measurement on the tank up high?
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Do you have something to provide a level measurement on the tank up high?
Unfortunately, the fill level is determined by the good old Mark I eyeball. I've thought about tapping into the outlet & running a clear tube up the front of the tank with a floating ball as a gauge. I did that once before on a water drum used for watering - the clear tubing didn't last long, the sun caused it to become opaque. A glass tube wouldn't have that problem, but would introduce other problems.
I've been considering using two of the HEP-02A pumps in parallel (giving ~60gph flow), but that is looking like more of a project than it's worth. What with buying the pumps, fuel line, fuse blocks, terminal blocks, etc., then actually building a one-use device, it's time to consider something a bit simpler. I'd mentioned earlier that rebuilding/modifying the platform to enable lowering the tank to the ground is an option, it's starting to look like the better option.
I hadn't thought of using a trolley system, I was thinking of a ramp (the tank has wheels) with a hand winch. A trolley would have a smaller footprint, and, if designed right, would allow it to be used for raising/lowering other heavier objects. A chain hoist might come in handy for a couple other projects too. Lowering to the ground to fill would also make judging the fill level easier.
I'd considered the high pressure/high volume, drop it in the tank pumps. The high pressure was a concern, even 75psi could cause a lot of splashing. And if the outlet got loose, there would be a lot of gas coming out of a hose whipping about like an injured snake.
Once upon a time, many years ago, a cousin was using gasoline as parts cleaner. He'd been working with the gas in an oil drain pan at the front of his 2 car garage, with the door open, for an hour or so. Thinking it was time for a cigarette, he lit his lighter. Fortunately, he only lost his eyebrows & the hair at the front of his head.
I haven't forgotten that day.
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I hadn't thought of using a trolley system, I was thinking of a ramp (the tank has wheels) with a hand winch. A trolley would have a smaller footprint, and, if designed right, would allow it to be used for raising/lowering other heavier objects. A chain hoist might come in handy for a couple other projects too. Lowering to the ground to fill would also make judging the fill level easier.
My $150 Harbor Freight suggestion, which seemed to be their cheapest option for hoist+trolley, was based just on your probably 150-200lbs of fuel plus tank. If you're gonna use it for other, heavier stuff, you might want to look at more expensive chain hoists, either at HF or elsewhere. Though maybe the cheaper HF hoists are good. I don't know much about their quality.
I keep thinking about the hoist+trolley system for me, but then I end up always using the tractor bucket and straps. :laugh:
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Even if you don't make a trolley, something as simple as a chain fall hanging from the rafters/brace would probably work if it will go high enough.
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Plain old hand winch and a home-fabbed tripod will do the trick if you are into function over form. Weld the winch mount to one of the tripod legs and cable through a simple sheave at the tripod apex. Questionable Spousal Approval Factor when it comes to appearance.
You could get fancy and make up some kind of railed lift tray. We had several drum racks with integrated hoists when I was growing up. Used them for drums of hydraulic fluid and gear lube. Home made so they were farmer-stout (i.e. butt ugly), but they were functional and a darned sight more convenient than wrestling 400+ lb drums around. Massive overkill for what you want to do, though.
Old-school hand winch.
https://www.grainger.com/product/6Z001?gucid=N:N:PS:Paid:GGL:CSM-2295:4P7A1P:20501231&gclid=CjwKCAjw9pGjBhB-EiwAa5jl3Jiy-3YDIJm1H2bwdiNg6pxAVooKqYNKQolrblRyUTG_CshTW5NKkRoCGc0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Brad
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At what point of cost do we consider just replacing the artificially lifted caddy with a ground level caddy and included pump? It seems like ~$200 will get you a new caddy and pump and solve your problem with no extra engineering.
16 Gal Caddy with battery powered pump: https://www.amazon.com/Gallon-Portable-Automatic-Transfer-Gasoline/dp/B0BY1VDV87/
30 Gal caddy with reversible manual pump: https://www.amazon.com/VEVOR-30-Gallon-Fuel-Caddy/dp/B0BCV1G63D
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Even if you don't make a trolley, something as simple as a chain fall hanging from the rafters/brace would probably work if it will go high enough.
I might not understand correctly how Cliff has his tank mounted. I was thinking an elevated platform like with a deck where the tank sits. If you just use a hoist centered over the tank, it seems like you might need an extra set of hands on a tag line to pull the tank away from the platform deck so you could lower it to the ground.
I guess if he has a deck and the legs aren't in the ground and rather the deck frame sits on the ground, he could hoist the tank off the deck, pull the deck out, then lower the tank straight down and then reverse the process.
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I was about to suggest making it easy and buying a pre-fab 4' rolling work platform, then I looked at prices. Nope, not an option.... unless you're Ben. Ben has all kinds of money and likes to spend it on stuff we suggest.
Brad
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What about a simple A frame with a block and tackle? Lift the jerry can up to filler height and tie it off. Then you could pour it in manually without having to lift and hold it over your head. It will take a little practice to know exactly how high to raise it.
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I might not understand correctly how Cliff has his tank mounted. I was thinking an elevated platform like with a deck where the tank sits. If you just use a hoist centered over the tank, it seems like you might need an extra set of hands on a tag line to pull the tank away from the platform deck so you could lower it to the ground.
I guess if he has a deck and the legs aren't in the ground and rather the deck frame sits on the ground, he could hoist the tank off the deck, pull the deck out, then lower the tank straight down and then reverse the process.
That's how it's setup now, on a 3' high deck that sits on the ground - the posts aren't in the ground. For stability & grounding the tank's strapped to a 2 1/4" pipe driven into the ground next to the deck. I've been thinking of adding a ramp to the front and a frame around the rest of the deck high enough to hang a pulley ~8" above the tank and a hand crank winch on the back side. When empty, I can lift the tank off the deck. When full, set the tank at the bottom of the ramp, run the cable through the pulley and crank the winch. That'll pull the tank up the ramp onto the deck.
I should have gone with a battery operated device like the one in dogmush's link to begin with. Now that I'm a couple hundred $ into this, I'd like to make it work. Well, make it work [i[better[/i].