Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: brimic on February 07, 2013, 04:49:03 PM
-
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/ex-lapd-cop-allegedly-stalked-victims.html
His manifesto is an interesting read.. http://ktla.com/2013/02/07/read-christopher-dorners-so-called-manifesto/#axzz2KDzTVIlO
-
scary what do you think about these guys?
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jump-out-boys-20130207,0,7728636.story?track=lanowpicks
-
It's deplorable and reprehensible that LAPD is shooting newspaper delivery ladies that drive cars that look like the suspect's car.
Tempts me to lend empathy to the wanted man... up until I read his manifesto. He's a whackadoodle of the first order. Approves of AWB's and goes around on shooting sprees with SBR AR's, silencers, and Barrett .50's. Thinks Feinstein/Clinton/Obama are awesome.
My net result is apathy to the whole situation. As long as it stays blue on blue and in LA rather than here.
-
The letter from the fugitive:
http://content.clearchannel.com/cc-common/mlib/616/02/616_1360213161.pdf
Current manhunt...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/02/07/suspect-identified-in-deaths-cal-state-coach-fiance/
LAPD ain't gun shy. They are definitely looking to kill this guy with extreme prejudice. On two separate incidences they have already shot up two innocent drivers because they are driving a pickup the same color as the fugitive.
http://laist.com/2013/02/07/police_shoot_motorists_mistaken_for_dorner.php
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/ex-cop-manhunt-newspaper-delivery-women-shot.html
If the things in the open letter are true, I feel sympathetic to his desperation.
-
scary what do you think about these guys?
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jump-out-boys-20130207,0,7728636.story?track=lanowpicks
After reading the article I have to assume they are being fired for PC reasons.
Nothing was reported that constituted grounds for dismissal IMHO. I have no problem with espri de corps and self described "alpha dogs" in anti gang units.
-
It's deplorable and reprehensible that LAPD is shooting newspaper delivery ladies that drive cars that look like the suspect's car.
Tempts me to lend empathy to the wanted man... up until I read his manifesto. He's a whackadoodle of the first order. Approves of AWB's and goes around on shooting sprees with SBR AR's, silencers, and Barrett .50's. Thinks Feinstein/Clinton/Obama are awesome.
My net result is apathy to the whole situation. As long as it stays blue on blue and in LA rather than here.
since it already left blue on blue hows that work for you?
-
whoops, thread on this already started in politics.
-
whoops, thread on this already started in politics.
Merged.
-
since it already left blue on blue hows that work for you?
Dude needs to get caught or put down, if it's left blue on blue due to his fault.
Then again, a person could make an argument that blue needs to be put down for gunning down little old newspaper ladies.
Disgusted by all parties. Hoping for a thorough cleansing one way or another as a net result. Hopefully legal, in a courtroom.
I'll refrain from saying what I hope happens to the officers that shot the newspaper ladies.
-
I'm getting real doggone tired of cops shooting innocents responding to crazies. Particularly tired of them not facing any action over it.
-
I'm getting real doggone tired of cops shooting innocents responding to crazies. Particularly tired of them not facing any action over it.
I think the ex cop on the run might agree with that.
Loonytoons or not, he's got a point. =|
-
I'm glad I don't drive a blue pickup truck.
-
To nitwit LEOs, the Four Rules are for "civilians."
For the love of Pete, have a clue about your target.
I'm getting real doggone tired of cops shooting innocents responding to crazies. Particularly tired of them not facing any action over it.
Yup.
-
Effing A, I've seen Marine helicopter door gunners less trigger happy than that. :mad:
-
He went from A to Z while skipping all the letters in between.
He complains about unfairly being accused of being a bully to committing murder
I had a hard time reading his rant, skimmed it mostly.
-
My read of the rant is that he considered his career and life to be over. Therefore decided that he had nothing left to lose, and wants a blaze of glory as he goes down.
Who wants to bet that he backs down from the original plan of suicide by cop and surrenders at some point?
-
Then we will start a long circus of a trial, ala Hassan
-
I keep thinking of Clint Eastwood's The Gauntlet, where the trigger-happy boys in blue will do anything to kill him before the truth sees daylight.
Collateral damage of two newspaper delivery ladies notwithstanding... =(
-
He went from A to Z while skipping all the letters in between.
He complains about unfairly being accused of being a bully to committing murder
I had a hard time reading his rant, skimmed it mostly.
He tells us about A, and they tell us about Z, and there is about a three year window in between.
He's not right, but i'm not sure he's completly wrong either.
I got about four pages in before I gave up, but if he lost it IRL, the way he lost it in the letter, I'm guessing this could be a case of LAPD breaking their own.
-
Oh man LAPD cops have managed to become more of a threat to the general public than that guy could ever be. They need their leash tightened immediately before some ossifer dufus gets lucky and actually kills an innocent. I hope criminal charges are pressed. I mean COME ON...gunning down vehicles because they are similar to what the suspected cop killer may have been driving??? No respect for people's lives. SHAME.
-
*expletive deleted*er is killing innocents. Id be happy to put a bullet through his head myself.
-
*expletive deleted*er is killing innocents. Id be happy to put a bullet through his head myself.
Yeah, but I don't think you'd be randomly shooting at any old blue truck in order to do it.
-
KTLA edited out the lefist I <3 gun control bits of his rant. http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2013/02/07/suspected-la-cop-killer-posted-pro-obama-pro-gun-control-leftist-rant-on-the-web/
-
KTLA edited out the lefist I <3 gun control bits of his rant. http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2013/02/07/suspected-la-cop-killer-posted-pro-obama-pro-gun-control-leftist-rant-on-the-web/
Yep.
-
And only cops should have EBRs because the are screened and trained.
Sorry. Had to say it
-
Another cracked ex employee. Not the first time we've seen this, unfortunately.
His story about how screwed up the LAPD is might well be 100 percent true. He's still completely insane.
If he goes to jail, I imagine he'll be a hero before he's executed. How many prisoners in the CA system would be regularly fantasising abou this?
-
I fully believe that he is both crazy, and that the LAPD is just as if not more corrupt than he says.
-
I have been noticing how news reporters are repeatedly referring to the weapons the LAPD is carrying as "semiautomatic rifles".... First time I hear them call those rifles that.
So when police have a AR15 it is a semiautomatic rifle.
When a civilian has a AR15 it is an "assault weapon".
Talk about pushing an agenda :facepalm:
-
I have been noticing how news reporters are repeatedly referring to the weapons the LAPD is carrying as "semiautomatic rifles".... First time I hear them call those rifles that.
So when police have a AR15 it is a semiautomatic rifle.
When a civilian has a AR15 it is an "assault weapon".
Talk about pushing an agenda :facepalm:
Duh. It's cause the LAPD doesn't assult people...
Oh, wait... Uhhh...
-
Sad that any point he might have been right on about the LAPD is negated by his crazy.
-
This is how any "right wing gun toting" person would be treated if they rebeled against authority. Watch and learn.
-
I have been noticing how news reporters are repeatedly referring to the weapons the LAPD is carrying as "semiautomatic rifles".... First time I hear them call those rifles that.
So when police have a AR15 it is a semiautomatic rifle.
When a civilian has a AR15 it is an "assault weapon".
Talk about pushing an agenda :facepalm:
You're almost there:
AR-15 in the hands of a cop = "Patrol Rifle"
Select fire AR-15 bought by the DHS = "Personal Defense Weapon"
AR-15 owned by you = "Assault Weapon".
-
This is how any "right wing gun toting" person would be treated if they rebeled against authority. Watch and learn.
This is why I find this very interesting. Whackado leftist with a gun vs an endless stream of sociopathic cops representing the collective.
Watching this play out and how the media is going to handle it is going to be instructional.
-
Where is Alonzo?
-
You're almost there:
AR-15 in the hands of a cop = "Patrol Rifle"
Select fire AR-15 bought by the DHS = "Personal Defense Weapon"
AR-15 owned by you = "Assault Weapon".
I seriously wonder if anyone actually understands the original meaning of "assault" anyway.
The use of the word by the grabber crowd is clearly meant to evoke "crime of assault" as the primary impression.
And then you get the "assault is a behavior, not a device" crowd, and they're not helping either.
People on both sides hurting the cause with bad linguistic usage, one side intentionally, the other through ignorance.
*Sigh*
-
How do you confuse 2 women for 1 black guy?
-
How do you confuse 2 women for 1 black guy?
They are professionals.
-
This is how any "right wing gun toting" person would be treated if they rebeled against authority. Watch and learn.
Good lord. Imagine if there were just TWO of them. They'd evacuate California... >:D
-
Yeah, but I don't think you'd be randomly shooting at any old blue truck in order to do it.
Amen, sister.
I fully believe that he is both crazy, and that the LAPD is just as if not more corrupt than he says.
Oh, yeah, they are NOT mutually exclusive.
How do you confuse 2 women for 1 black guy?
Training?
-
The guy is probably crazy. I don't know what brings him to this point, but here we are. It reminds me of the First Blood (Rambo movie). Rambo was treated as a "good guy" by the movie audience, but was clearly a bad guy relative to the local law enforcement.
I find it amazing what CA law enforcement is doing... two cars minimum for every disturbance call. No cops on the freeways etc. Interesting, and this is one guy. What would happen if it was several hundred? Then you consider that the politicians want to disarm the American public.... interesting. Do you think that 7-round mag is enough for the homeowner who has locked up his home on Bear Mt area?
I think the truck is a diversion and it was planted, but we'll see.
I am certainly not supporting this guy. But is sure is interesting the chaos it is causing.... one guy.
-
The guy is probably crazy. I don't know what brings him to this point, but here we are. It reminds me of the First Blood (Rambo movie). Rambo was treated as a "good guy" by the movie audience, but was clearly a bad guy relative to the local law enforcement.
I find it amazing what CA law enforcement is doing... two cars minimum for every disturbance call. No cops on the freeways etc. Interesting, and this is one guy. What would happen if it was several hundred? Then you consider that the politicians want to disarm the American public.... interesting.
I am certainly not supporting this guy. But is sure is interesting the chaos it is causing.... one guy.
Once we have an outcome, It'll be quite the case study. Crazy doesn't rule out instructional.
-
After reading the manifesto again... one thing now sticks out to me.
How does a man who can barely write at an 8th grade level. (I'm being generous) become a military officer?
-
After reading the manifesto again... one thing now sticks out to me.
How does a man who can barely write at an 8th grade level. (I'm being generous) become a military officer?
Talking to some people who actually know him, including one who went to college and into the military with him they are saying he kept failing at every major thing he tried. Had trouble getting into the military due to not meeting the PT requirements, tried Marines first then went Navy. Tried flight school but washed out due to airsickness and always being behind the airplane, couldnt hack it. Then tried LAPD but failed there not due to the corruption but being a complete screwup. Of course none of this was ever his fault but it was always someone else keeping him down.
-
Talking to some people who actually know him, including one who went to college and into the military with him they are saying he kept failing at every major thing he tried. Had trouble getting into the military due to not meeting the PT requirements, tried Marines first then went Navy. Tried flight school but washed out due to airsickness and always being behind the airplane, couldnt hack it. Then tried LAPD but failed there not due to the corruption but being a complete screwup. Of course none of this was ever his fault but it was always someone else keeping him down.
I'm getting that part of it. That only makes my question that much more... ???
Quotas then?
-
After reading the manifesto again... one thing now sticks out to me.
How does a man who can barely write at an 8th grade level. (I'm being generous) become a military officer?
Nobody wants the answer to that except us curious analytical types everyone despises.
-
Of course none of this was ever his fault but it was always someone else keeping him down.
Whitey?
-
Nobody wants the answer to that except us curious analytical types everyone despises.
What was that phrase?
Oh yeah, 'the emperor has no clothes.'
-
After reading the manifesto again... one thing now sticks out to me.
How does a man who can barely write at an 8th grade level. (I'm being generous) become a military officer?
Same way folks like Hassan do, I'd imagine
Not everyone in the military is worth a *expletive deleted*it, and officer training programs are more about finding out who can put up with institutionalized hazing versus developing leaders
-
Folks, his reading and writing skills aren't that bad from the manifesto - it's his thoughts that are driving that thing all over the place.
He's obviously been researching info on his targets for a long time. This is potentially another DC sniper type situation in the works....although not sure how long he can go with his pictures all over the news.
-
Lucky for him profiling is wrong and against policy.
-
Folks, his reading and writing skills aren't that bad from the manifesto - it's his thoughts that are driving that thing all over the place.
He's obviously been researching info on his targets for a long time. This is potentially another DC sniper type situation in the works....although not sure how long he can go with his pictures all over the news.
My guess is that LA is a big place. Lots of faces. And considering his narrowly stated targets, I don't think the local populace would have much of an incentive to keep an eye out to turn him in. Hell, before this thing blows over, he just might become a folk hero of sorts in certain neighborhoods, specially if police continue their shoot first, identify later monkey business.
-
How do you confuse 2 women for 1 black guy?
Were the women black at least?
Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk 2
-
Were the women black at least?
Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk 2
No, Asian.
-
No, Asian.
Yeah...they didn't even bother to check to see who was in the rig. Seems to me they're trying to execute the guy.
-
Here is a non-redacted version of his manifesto:
http://content.clearchannel.com/cc-common/mlib/616/02/616_1360213161.pdf
-
My read of the rant is that he considered his career and life to be over. Therefore decided that he had nothing left to lose, and wants a blaze of glory as he goes down.
There will be a blaze, but no glory.
-
Kind of gives new meaning to "To serve and protect". :police:
-
This was the truck with the two Asian ladies in it that the LAPD
shot lit the eff up. :O
Sweet Jesus, there's no way they could have ID'd their target through that glass, and yet they even deployed their gorram shotgun on it! (hulls and casings on ground)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.gawkerassets.com%2Fimg%2F18dxqaw5oolhhjpg%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=f961fe8e5dc9f2deb5a2799228e58f990d8e0156)
-
Evil and stupidity aren't a race. Everyone can win.
-
FYI, the suspect's truck is a black Nissan Titan. NOT a metallic blue Toyota Tacoma. :facepalm:
-
Hearing bits about the cops ramming a second (wrong) truck off the road and shooting (around) it. Anyone have any information about that?
-
This was the truck with the two Asian ladies in it that the LAPD shot lit the eff up. :O
Sweet Jesus, there's no way they could have ID'd their target through that glass, and yet they even deployed their gorram shotgun on it! (hulls and casings on ground)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.gawkerassets.com%2Fimg%2F18dxqaw5oolhhjpg%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=f961fe8e5dc9f2deb5a2799228e58f990d8e0156)
54? Good thing we know all the projectiles went to safe places(like innocent asians) due to the surgical shot placement we see.
-
Y'all know Ii fairly pro-leo...but something here stinks to high-heaven. Turning a truck into Swiss cheese because of the truck color...when being driven by two Asian women...sounds like soe kind of Hollywood "shoot first(and often) and ask questions later" kind of thing. When I first read the story, with his accusations, it reminded me of the movie "The Negotiator" with Samuel L Jackson. Good cop made to look bad by bad cops. Especially when I read that LAPD may be editing news stories about the events. Wonder where the truth lies in all of this.
-
Y'all know Ii fairly pro-leo...but something here stinks to high-heaven. Turning a truck into Swiss cheese because of the truck color...when being driven by two Asian women...sounds like soe kind of Hollywood "shoot first(and often) and ask questions later" kind of thing. When I first read the story, with his accusations, it reminded me of the movie "The Negotiator" with Samuel L Jackson. Good cop made to look bad by bad cops. Especially when I read that LAPD may be editing news stories about the events. Wonder where the truth lies in all of this.
It wasn't even the right color. Suspects vehicle was black, not metallic blue.
-
FYI, the suspect's truck is a black Nissan Titan. NOT a metallic blue Toyota Tacoma. :facepalm:
I think, if I lived in the area and drove a truck that was blue, black, silver or green, I would call in sick today.
I just heard the local morning radio shows news segment. All about the bad guy on the run. No mention of innocent asian ladies getting shot up or cops running rampent in the streets with guns a blazin'.
-
Found a pic of the second (wrong) vehicle the cops attacked.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbangphotos.smugmug.com%2Fphotos%2Fi-8cv6cK6%2F0%2FL%2Fi-8cv6cK6-L.jpg&hash=60679f38c07e5b719a6efc2b0e9eba5026867960)
-
Good thing California is in the process of disarming the
citizens peasentry. We sure wouldn't want people peasents being able to defend themselves against the police gestapo.
The people of California ought to be raising serious WTF hue and cry over this CF.
-
Here is a non-redacted version of his manifesto:
http://content.clearchannel.com/cc-common/mlib/616/02/616_1360213161.pdf
I skimmed it. The former officer makes changes that historic proven behavior of the LAPD has not changed, and that this is the way of drawing attention to the matter.
Talking to some people who actually know him, including one who went to college and into the military with him they are saying he kept failing at every major thing he tried. Had trouble getting into the military due to not meeting the PT requirements, tried Marines first then went Navy. Tried flight school but washed out due to airsickness and always being behind the airplane, couldnt hack it. Then tried LAPD but failed there not due to the corruption but being a complete screwup. Of course none of this was ever his fault but it was always someone else keeping him down.
I can believe that he is a screwup, and that LAPD is massively corrupt. I mean, skimming the "manifesto", would you be surprised that apparently the majority of the LAPD act inappropriately, or stand by and do nothing to protect the "thin blue line"?
-
I skimmed it. The former officer makes changes that historic proven behavior of the LAPD has not changed, and that this is the way of drawing attention to the matter.
Problem is, it sounds like he hasn't just snapped and is making logical rational decisions based on his beliefs. This'll be interesting.
Yeah, as far as manifestos go (and I've read a few in my career), this was one of the most well-written I've read. Decent grammer. Fairly logical progression. Doesn't come across as the scattered thoughts of a mind that has lost contact with reality. Scary, in many ways...
-
Yeah, as far as manifestos go (and I've read a few in my career), this was one of the most well-written I've read. Decent grammer. Fairly logical progression. Doesn't come across as the scattered thoughts of a mind that has lost contact with reality. Scary, in many ways...
Yes.
This one seems coherent enough to give a long drawn out fight. As Balog said, both crazy and truth. Just enough crazy to go all in, coherent enough to give it a good run.
Oh, yeah, go check the Twitter verse. This guy is already a folk hero. I bet he could find safe houses now if he asked for one.
-
Here is a non-redacted version of his manifesto:
http://content.clearchannel.com/cc-common/mlib/616/02/616_1360213161.pdf
That's still allegedly missing the second half:
http://www.soopermexican.com/2013/02/07/news-media-scrub-cop-murderers-manifesto-of-pro-obama-pro-hillary-loved-msnbc-pro-gay-and-anti-gun-comments/#more-3288
-
Yes.
This one seems coherent enough to give a long drawn out fight. As Balog said, both crazy and truth. Just enough crazy to go all in, coherent enough to give it a good run.
Oh, yeah, go check the Twitter verse. This guy is already a folk hero. I bet he could find safe houses now if he asked for one.
I could see him having already set those up with some of the less than supportive elements in the city that would be glad to see the LAPD bleed. As I recall, this guy has had twice as long to prepare as Mr. Killdozer did.
-
This was the truck with the two Asian ladies in it that the LAPD shot lit the eff up. :O
Sweet Jesus, there's no way they could have ID'd their target through that glass, and yet they even deployed their gorram shotgun on it! (hulls and casings on ground)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.gawkerassets.com%2Fimg%2F18dxqaw5oolhhjpg%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=f961fe8e5dc9f2deb5a2799228e58f990d8e0156)
Apparently they both survived :O.
I'm guessing they've got good grounds for suing the LAPD after this? ???
-
Yeah, as far as manifestos go (and I've read a few in my career), this was one of the most well-written I've read. Decent grammer. Fairly logical progression. Doesn't come across as the scattered thoughts of a mind that has lost contact with reality. Scary, in many ways...
Yes.
This one seems coherent enough to give a long drawn out fight. As Balog said, both crazy and truth. Just enough crazy to go all in, coherent enough to give it a good run.
Oh, yeah, go check the Twitter verse. This guy is already a folk hero. I bet he could find safe houses now if he asked for one.
The difference between loons like Dorner and say, Ethan Allen, is that Allen had a better choice in his actions. He won, basically. Drewtam described any successful revolutionary. The losers we generally tend to assess as being unstable, crazy or traitors. The winners we forgive of their flaws, or flat out craziness. Washington's occasional military incompetence, Franklin's love for the ladies of the evening, Ethan Allen being completely bonkers. It applied even to later folks. Andrew Jackson today would be in the nut house, not President of the US.
Dorner is nuts for his target selection and timing. If he was targeting redcoats in Boston in 1770's, it'd be a different story. LAPD in 2013, he'll be remembered solely as a lunatic, and should be.
Apparently they both survived :O.
I'm guessing they've got good grounds for suing the LAPD after this? ???
The incompetency makes me want to weep. While I'm sincerely glad they're both alive and I hope they make a full recovery to sleep on piles of money provided from a lawsuit, it offends my sense of professionalism. They go all Matrix on a car, and fail to kill the folks?
:facepalm:
-
This was the truck with the two Asian ladies in it that the LAPD shot lit the eff up. :O
Sweet Jesus, there's no way they could have ID'd their target through that glass, and yet they even deployed their gorram shotgun on it! (hulls and casings on ground)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.gawkerassets.com%2Fimg%2F18dxqaw5oolhhjpg%2Foriginal.jpg&hash=f961fe8e5dc9f2deb5a2799228e58f990d8e0156)
Ok.... I seem to remember the official story of how this "horrible incident" started, and it was that this truck was driving down the street with lights off, and the officers engaged shot the ever living crap out of it when it was approaching one of the houses they were protecting and refused to stop.
However, based on the fact that it appears that all the rounds impacted the rear of the vehicle (at least I don't see any apparent impacts on the side of the truck we can somewhat see, no dimpling or any other evidence of rounds striking the side of the truck, it would appear that they let the truck get past their position and then started shooting at the back of the truck. This strikes me as not only bad tactically (you miss, your target accellerates out of the kill zone, and now you've got *real* problems) but as a horrifically piss poor job of target verification, and yes, unless you *know* that the bad guy is driving that truck, I *DO* expect you to step out prior to the vehicle passing your position and attempt to stop it, and actually, you know, *IDENTIFY* who is driving the truck. Not shoot the ever loving crap out of it once it's passed you.
-
Jesus... TWO wrong cars, with bullet holes in them? No traffic stop, no attempt at identification?
Go *expletive deleted*ck yourselves, LAPD.
You guys are officially the bad guys in my book.
You could be chasing The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs At Midnight at this point. You could be chasing The Joker at this point. You could have indesputable proof that Osama Bin Laden was alive and well and living in LA and planning more attacks on the US.
And it doesn't matter.
If there was a way at this point, I'd donate money to this guy.
Any badges that stick up for shoot-first-ID-later conduct and protect that need to lose their badges. And spend time in jail.
Badges that actually shoot-first-ID-later need to sit on death row.
-
I find it very likely that LA could explode into all out turf warfare if this keeps up (i.e. LAPD shooting up random cars in a completely unjustifiable manner).
Gangs will set up road blocks to prohibit cops from entering parts of the city.
After the first shoot-out, there will be black market bounties on cops from that point forward.
-
From: http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0208-manhunt-20130208,0,3459604,full.story
Behind the counter of Triangle Market in Big Bear City, clerk Robert Caballos said that unlike many other folks in the area, he wasn't worried for his safety.
"I mean, I heard he's going after cops, right?" he said.
It's starting.
Apathy to the situation, with a mix of smug "you sow it, you reap it" for good measure.
As long as he stays at large and only strikes at cops, he'll get more apathy or even possible support.
-
If there was a way at this point, I'd donate money to this guy.
He'd just donate it to Obama or some anti-gun group.
I don't care if he's killing only corrupt cops (and I don't think that's the case) this nutjob is not sort of folk hero. He's an anti gun, pro big government murderer.
-
If there was a way at this point, I'd donate money to this guy.
Yeah youre a real stand up guy, wanting to donate money to a murderer, not to mention hes a leftist piece of *expletive deleted*. I stand by what I said before, Id love to put a bullet in his head myself.
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/orange_county&id=8983500
-
http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.html#/video/bestoftv/2013/02/08/ac-bill-bratton-dorner-package.cnn
Added On February 07, 2013
Suspect Christopher Dorner sent a DVD, letter and bullet-riddled coin to Anderson Cooper. Fmr. LAPD Chief Bratton reacts.
-
Yeah youre a real stand up guy, wanting to donating money to a murderer.
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/orange_county&id=8983500
OK, point taken. Donating is a bit overboard, but I'm not losing sleep over this threat to LAPD.
-
If there was a way at this point, I'd donate money to this guy.
Some things should probably be kept to yourself.
OK, point taken. Donating is a bit overboard, but I'm not losing sleep over this threat to LAPD.
Because he's living your fantasy? If the guy had legitimate gripes he should have brought them to the media, social media, and web forums. He's a wackadoodle on a killing spree. Supporting him only makes you seem like a wackadoodle.
The LAPD's wrongs don't make him right.
-
If you read the media-friendly version of his manifesto that only detailed his complaints against LAPD, try reading the rest of it.
http://boywithgrenade.org/2013/02/07/christopher-dorners-manifesto/
-
Some things should probably be kept to yourself.
Because he's living your fantasy?
I don't fantasize about being the subject of a 1000+ cop manhunt. Or about killing cops.
I'll admit I got... animated... over the pair of bullet-riddled cars that were evidence of inept police work and a lack of respect for the safety or rights of the populace to not be shot at. I'm okay with whatever karmic retribution happens to be delivered back at those cops who did the shooting, whether by courts or a nutcase running around. And I'll leave it at that.
-
http://news.yahoo.com/career-woes-perceived-racism-fuel-ex-cops-anger-000024963.html
This article on Yahoo cites to documentation where he had emotional break downs while on duty, and asked to be sent back to eth police academy for more training. LAPD's response was apparently to ignore these instances, keep the guy on duty, and terminate his employment upon his first "violation." Gotta say that I'm smelling something even worse now. I've seen instances where bad cops (who do a lot worse than he reportedly did before getting fired), with the backing of the union, stay on the job. Wonder if we'll ever get a real story out of this...
As for the actions of LAPD in response, I'd recommend a federal civil rights investigation, but I'm not all that confident in the DOJ these days...
-
I don't fantasize about being the subject of a 1000+ cop manhunt. Or about killing cops.
I'll admit I got... animated... over the pair of bullet-riddled cars that were evidence of inept police work and a lack of respect for the safety or rights of the populace to not be shot at. I'm okay with whatever karmic retribution happens to be delivered back at those cops who did the shooting, whether by courts or a nutcase running around. And I'll leave it at that.
Then say that. Because posting support for a wackadoodle doesn't make you look good.
-
Call him what you will, in the eyes of a large number of Los Angeles residents Dorner embodies righteous retribution in the form of a pissed off ex-cop. These are the people that have to live under the shadow of what Dorner wrote about. LAPD has a looong history of being at odds with the population. I expect his popularity to soar if he gets more people in uniform with out causing "collateral damage".
They are probably going to have to put out a very generous bounty on him. I wonder how much it's going to be?
-
http://news.yahoo.com/career-woes-perceived-racism-fuel-ex-cops-anger-000024963.html
This article on Yahoo cites to documentation where he had emotional break downs while on duty, and asked to be sent back to eth police academy for more training. LAPD's response was apparently to ignore these instances, keep the guy on duty, and terminate his employment upon his first "violation." Gotta say that I'm smelling something even worse now. I've seen instances where bad cops (who do a lot worse than he reportedly did before getting fired), with the backing of the union, stay on the job. Wonder if we'll ever get a real story out of this...
As for the actions of LAPD in response, I'd recommend a federal civil rights investigation, but I'm not all that confident in the DOJ these days...
OTOH, the police unions, and minority officer organizations etc. and just the PC/affirmative action policies of the department itself, if there were any merit to his complaints, I think somebody would have taken his side, or taken him on as a "cause".
http://lapd.com/
In google, "los angeles discrimination" comes up with roughly 11,600,000 results for attorneys, law firms, advocacy groups etc.
http://www.blackpolice.org/
The incident that got him fired, the accusation of brutality/kicking by his training partner was denied by other witnesses at the scene, the supposed victim they were arresting for acting crazy/disturbing the peace or whatever it was, did not mention it, and the only person who testified to the kicking was the man's father, who wasn't present at the time.
Then there's the (admittedly anecdotal/hearsay) reports about his time in the military from people who professed to know him that state a similar pattern of failure, failure to work/study/prepare/learn, and washing out there as well. And severing friendships or getting angry at anyone that pointed out to him that he failed, and the organization didn't fail him.
If these are true, it would be consistent with him displaying a pattern of character deficits and some personality disorders.
If I had to bet, I'd lay four figures or a case of 5.56 on the LAPD having "significant corruption" were there some way to freeze the agency in place and lift the lid off of everything at once and have it all examined by some neutral third party. However, I don't think it was corrupt in his case.
-
Rush Limbaugh opened his show, just now, with a brilliant suggestion: for their safety during this situation, the people of LA should hand in their guns.
-
Those NY 7-round mags would do the trick dealing with a guy like this. If this was in NY state and a citizen ended up shooting him inside their home, they would probably be counting bullets in their mag.
I think they should call this guy "Rambo". Stallone has come out supporting the AWB and other infringements.
-
Shouldn't this thread be entitled: LAPD cops gone rogue?
;/
-
I would be interested to hear the story about the truck in the second photo. (the black Honda) Besides being shot at, it looks as if they rammed it since there is body damage and the air bag is deployed. Did they even try to stop it first?
To tell you the truth, I wouldn't want to be a big black guy in LA today.
-
I would be interested to hear the story about the truck in the second photo. (the black Honda) Besides being shot at, it looks as if they rammed it since there is body damage and the air bag is deployed. Did they even try to stop it first?
To tell you the truth, I wouldn't want to be a big black guy in LA today.
I wouldn't want to be anybody in LA or anywhere in California.
I'd rather be unemployed in Greenland.
-
To tell you the truth, I wouldn't want to be a big black guy in LA today.
Considering they first shot two asian women whose only similarity to the fugitive is they were driving a truck (but not same, color, model, or make...), I'm pretty sure everyone is in danger, not just those who share a similarity to the fugitive.
-
I wouldn't want to be anybody in LA or anywhere in California.
I'd rather be unemployed in Greenland.
Beat me to it... and, "don't say that Vizzini"
-
The second shooting involved Torrance police officers, who were stationed nearby in the event LAPD needed them. When the officers heard the gunshots, they headed toward
At that point, a driver in another pickup truck that look similar to Dorner's drove toward them on Flagler Lane near Beryl Street. Officers, suspecting it was Dorner, purposely collided with the truck and shot at him.
The driver wasn't hurt, avoiding bullets that had ripped through his windshield.
"I heard some man yell at somebody and I saw this argument on the street," said Ana Filova, a woman living in her car near Dominguez Park.
Filova said she heard someone yell "cuffs" and then heard two shots, followed by a pause and a third shot.
"I said, `Mama Mia, that's gunshots," she said. "I was scared. I was shaking from fear."
Torrance police Sgt. Chris Roosen said the officers were unhurt. He thanked the driver for cooperating in the investigation.
Officers did not identify the driver. Records showed the 2006 Honda pickup truck was registered to Lizzette Perdue of Redondo Beach. Purdue declined to talk to a reporter about who was driving her truck.
-
The 2 idiots who shot the Asian ladies need to lose their badges, and go to jail. Their actions prove they do not need to be cops
-
Emotionally unstable, yet reasonably intellegent person is repeatly subject to abuse, racial slurs and curruption, in what is already a high stress job, and then is given the boot for grivances he feels is justified?
LAPD created their own monster, and now, they get to deal with it under the national spotlight.
I am not going to feel sorry for them. I do feel bad for the general populance for being stuck in the cross fire.
-
Emotionally unstable, yet reasonably intellegent person is repeatly subject to abuse, racial slurs and curruption, in what is already a high stress job, and then is given the boot for grivances he feels is justified?
LAPD created their own monster, and now, they get to deal with it under the national spotlight.
I am not going to feel sorry for them. I do feel bad for the general populance for being stuck in the cross fire.
If anything he said is actually true. His former friend that went through college and into flight school with him said Dorner has a history of lying, including making false allegations to try to get him (the friend) kicked out of flight school
-
Torrance police Sgt. Chris Roosen said the officers were unhurt. He thanked the driver for cooperating in the investigation.
The concern was that the officers were unhurt?!? What about the innocent victim of over-zealousness / fear/ mistaken identity?
-
The concern was that the officers were unhurt?!? What about the innocent victim of over-zealousness / fear/ mistaken identity?
That's not really important.
-
you will coopertate
-
The second shooting involved Torrance police officers, who were stationed nearby in the event LAPD needed them. When the officers heard the gunshots, they headed toward
At that point, a driver in another pickup truck that look similar to Dorner's drove toward them on Flagler Lane near Beryl Street. Officers, suspecting it was Dorner, purposely collided with the truck and shot at him.
The driver wasn't hurt, avoiding bullets that had ripped through his windshield.
"I heard some man yell at somebody and I saw this argument on the street," said Ana Filova, a woman living in her car near Dominguez Park.
Filova said she heard someone yell "cuffs" and then heard two shots, followed by a pause and a third shot.
"I said, `Mama Mia, that's gunshots," she said. "I was scared. I was shaking from fear."
Torrance police Sgt. Chris Roosen said the officers were unhurt. He thanked the driver for cooperating in the investigation.
Officers did not identify the driver. Records showed the 2006 Honda pickup truck was registered to Lizzette Perdue of Redondo Beach. Purdue declined to talk to a reporter about who was driving her truck.
Say car ramrod! Say car ramrod!
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Ft%2FCar-RAMROD-Super-Troopers-Farva-Mens-Funny-T-shirt-%2F18%2F%21Be9MnE%21B2k%7E%24%28KGrHqMH-DcErhsoGdykBK%2BZ7hfms%21%7E%7E_12.JPG&hash=906974c506eb453fa2acdecfa3a884bf4b6e6d2f)
-
Seems more like a case of Rambo (i.e. FIRST BLOOD) vs. The East German Stasi.....hard to know who to cheer for...
-
Seems more like a case of Rambo (i.e. FIRST BLOOD) vs. The East German Stasi.....hard to know who to cheer for...
It's a matter of hoping the citizen/bystander casualty count is minimal from both fields of fire..
As an aside, I have a hard time thinking that the burned truck wasn't misdirection. Willingly becoming the object of a manhunt in wild terrain doesn't make sense for this guy, to my mind.
-
Anyone have a good consolidated source of info for this case?
-
It's a matter of hoping the citizen/bystander casualty count is minimal from both fields of fire..
As an aside, I have a hard time thinking that the burned truck wasn't misdirection. Willingly becoming the object of a manhunt in wild terrain doesn't make sense for this guy, to my mind.
This guy isn't running wild. He is probably following a scripted plan he made up a long time ago.
-
Just another gang war in LaLa land ;/
-
Anyone have a good consolidated source of info for this case?
Here's a decent timeline of events so far, with links to various news sources:
http://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/184570/detailed_timeline_background_updates_about_former/
-
This guy isn't running wild. He is probably following a scripted plan he made up a long time ago.
Agreed. I'd hate to be Joe Citizen and find him in my cabin, only able to confront him with a CA compliant firearm.....
-
If anything he said is actually true. His former friend that went through college and into flight school with him said Dorner has a history of lying, including making false allegations to try to get him (the friend) kicked out of flight school
The LAPD has a history and a certain reputation.
Every so often the wolf is real.
-
I'm not saying that he isn't acting with concerted intent. I just think if he is, causing LE to divert resources to where he isn't would be tactically sound, allowing him to operate more freely in an environment he is familiar with. A final stand-off in the woods seems out of place with his stated objectives-causing mayhem and fear among the people who "wronged" him. I think the odds are good that he is not where they are looking.
-
I'm not saying that he isn't acting with concerted intent. I just think if he is, causing LE to divert resources to where he isn't would be tactically sound, allowing him to operate more freely in an environment he is familiar with. A final stand-off in the woods seems out of place with his stated objectives-causing mayhem and fear among the people who "wronged" him. I think the odds are good that he is not where they are looking.
You are probably right.
-
The LAPD are playing a very dangerous game whether they have a choice in it or not... sooner or later they are going to kill an innocent black man in this debacle and LA is going to burn like it has never burned before.
-
It's amazing they haven't already killed several people.
-
It's amazing they haven't already killed several people.
For once, we can be thankful for cops having poor marksmanship skills.
-
The LAPD has a history and a certain reputation.
Every so often the wolf is real.
Just pointing out he's a proven liar...
And pro-tip, if you're going to wage war, you don't publish a manifesto and *expletive deleted*it. You don't give up ANYTHING that's a possible clue to your future behaviors. In his manifesto he sounds smarter than he really is, IMHO, and that fits in with his past history.
-
TV news (NBC) reports the two Asian women shot by PD have lawyered up, the burned Dorner truck was most likey a plant, and he is probably far away in a second vehicle.
-
Just pointing out he's a proven liar...
And pro-tip, if you're going to wage war, you don't publish a manifesto and *expletive deleted*. You don't give up ANYTHING that's a possible clue to your future behaviors. In his manifesto he sounds smarter than he really is, IMHO, and that fits in with his past history.
Well, so far he's been smart enough to elude multiple LEO agancies efforts at capture exermination in a multi state manhunt.
I'd say he doesn't seem to really need your protip. Nor does he want it. He wants to make a scene. Can't make a scene without the manifesto.
-
Well, so far he's been smart enough to elude multiple LEO agancies efforts at capture exermination in a multi state manhunt.
I'd say he doesn't seem to really need your protip. Nor does he want it. He wants to make a scene. Can't make a scene without the manifesto.
They'll catch him sooner or later. Either that or some good ol' boy out in the boonies will...
He's gotta sleep sometime, he's gotta eat, he's gotta take shelter, and something will slow him up sooner or later (illness, injury, etc). Might even be betrayed sooner or later. I'd say he won't last long, it's only day 2, remember that.
-
Note to self:
Quash urges to write any manifesto. They never read as well to others as they do to one's self. Also, do not rent dark, 4-door pickup on next trip to southern California. If the local gendarmes can mistake two oriental gals for a black crazy man, no telling what they will think of me.
-
TV news (NBC) reports the two Asian women shot by PD have lawyered up, the burned Dorner truck was most likey a plant, and he is probably far away in a second vehicle.
Figures, seeing as there was probably no way he could have BOTH gotten the truck up into the Big Bear mountains/lake area, and also throw his old Navy ID on the side of the road near his old base down in San Diego.
Well, that's what, 150 miles? Maybe 200 if he went more NW along the coast into LA then hung east towards there? (Haven't been to CA since I was a kid.)
-
Newz also reports that burned-out truck had a broken axle, and that he torched the guns he didn't take with him.
His bug-out plan may have been shifted to the alternate, but he still has managed to stay ahead of his pursuers so far.
-
Newz also reports that burned-out truck had a broken axle, and that he torched the guns he didn't take with him.
Hmm now that move is making sense (although why not cache the extra stuff nearby?)...must have been in a hurry to evac the area.
-
Emotionally unstable, yet reasonably intellegent person is repeatly subject to abuse, racial slurs and curruption, in what is already a high stress job, and then is given the boot for grivances he feels is justified?
LAPD created their own monster, and now, they get to deal with it under the national spotlight.
I am not going to feel sorry for them. I do feel bad for the general populance for being stuck in the cross fire.
If you haven't been in the military chances are you have not dealt with a wonderful sub-species of human who has delusions of grandeur, no chance of adequacy, and manages to find a bogeyman around every corner to blame for their failures. The military attracts them like a bug light and then gives them a visible and structured system to work. The less shooting your unit faces, the more you get. Or as Wile Coyote would put it shitbirdus americanus.
And I'll step off the tidal surge of cop hate, I don't like them, don't like California, but chances are he is going to hurt and kill people that are doing nothing more than collecting a paycheck and did nothing to him. So *golfclap* for not being the "random" shooter who kills a bunch of kids for no reason, but he has cast his target net a little wide. This guy is no folk hero and any decent person ought to be happy to help him with his suicide. I'll reserve my ire and hopes for long prison time for cops that hose random trucks. Won't hold my breath though.
-
I love how anyone who points out this whole ordeal might be in some ways the LAPD's fault is assumed to be supportive of a murdering nutbag.
;/
-
I think folks are ascribing too much in the way of skills to a man that they are also deriding as a looney tune. My money is on someone eventually finding him dead of a self-inflicted gunshot wound within a few miles of his burned out truck.
-
The whole trying to jack a boat, failing because of a tangled rope than running away does not lead me to believe that this burned out truck is part of some well-thought out stratagem.
He was a failure at everything else he tried so, logically, he'll be a failure here. In the grand sense, anyway.
-
I think folks are ascribing too much in the way of skills to a man that they are also deriding as a looney tune. My money is on someone eventually finding him dead of a self-inflicted gunshot wound within a few miles of his burned out truck.
Loonytunes arn't always dumb.
In fact, it's the middle road ones you have to watch out for.
Smart enough to figure some stuff out, crazy enough to do the inpredictible.
Besides, this guy seems to be sucide by cop material.
-
I keep thinking of Clint Eastwood's The Gauntlet, where the trigger-happy boys in blue will do anything to kill him before the truth sees daylight.
Collateral damage of two newspaper delivery ladies notwithstanding... =(
LAPD Chief Charlie Beck commented on the incident at a Thursday press conference, saying: "Tragically, we believe this is a case of mistaken identity."
WTF?
I mean, really, WTF?
Are they thinking the paper ladies might merge and peel off their fake hispanic skin to reveal that they're really one large black man?
"To the credit of the officers involved, after the shooting they acted professionally when they realized what happened."
Gee, do drunk drivers ever get any credit for doing the right thing after they cause injury to innocents?
-
I love how anyone who points out this whole ordeal might be in some ways the LAPD's fault is assumed to be supportive of a murdering nutbag.
;/
There is a pretty strong undercurrent on here of cheering for the cop killer. I have zero doubt that LAPD is FUBAR but... How exactly is this guy's way of handling it different from an Obama drone strike? No rules, no oversight, no evidence, just a whackjob with a lethal weapon killing everyone except those truly responsible.
-
How exactly is this guy's way of handling it different from an Obama drone strike?
Dorner doesn't claim divine mandate.
-
There is a pretty strong undercurrent on here of cheering for the cop killer. I have zero doubt that LAPD is FUBAR but... How exactly is this guy's way of handling it different from an Obama drone strike? No rules, no oversight, no evidence, just a whackjob with a lethal weapon killing everyone except those truly responsible.
Cheering? Or acknowledging the fact that they (the LAPD as a whole) had a hand in this and now are learning the hard way (and with innocents getting caught in the crossfire by both sides) why they need to make a better accounting for what goes on behind that "blue line"?
I want to know how much of this is "dude randomly went nuts" and how much of this was exasperated by people who ought to know better.
They gave this guy a badge and gun and put him on the streets. Who else are they giving a badge and a gun, putting on the streets and not getting caught/thrown out?
Acknowledgeing that there is a certain sick karma involved is not "cheering on a cop killer".
Chickens come home to roost, and the fact that it has escalated to this degree is not acceptable.
-
(the LAPD as a whole) had a hand in this
Hold the phone.
Dorner and Dorner ALONE is at the making of this. Personal responsibility, 100% right there lies with him. Additionally, his core issue is that he will not accept personal responsibility for his screwups in the past and prefers to blame it on everyone else and in his twisted little mind, that makes it A-OK to declare war on society. The LAPD did discover he had issues and rightfully terminated him.
Given that he is a proven liar and a murderer, everything he claims in his manifesto is suspect.
-
There are people cheering him on on this board. I know other people IRL who are probably ecstatic. As has been said before in this thread, if he had legitimate grievances there are lawyers, cable news shows,social media, other ways. The cops he shot have nothing to do with him. I don't think the level of tyranny in US law enforcement, even Cali is anywhere close to the "good nazi is a dead nazi" level. He's a *expletive deleted*bag of a failure who wanted his 15 minutes. If he was committed as he thinks he is to his grievances we'd have nothing in the news except a few page 7 unsolved murders of ranking police officials.
I can do plenty of lulz at the cops exposing their own incompetence by shooting asian ladies, getting sued, the hypocrisy of them hunting him with AR-15s that are only suited for war zones and mere proles can't have, etc. I can be amused and/or outraged by all that and still sincerely wish that this guy gets a bullet in the head soonest.
-
Hold the phone.
Dorner and Dorner ALONE is at the making of this. Personal responsibility, 100% right there lies with him. Additionally, his core issue is that he will not accept personal responsibility for his screwups in the past and prefers to blame it on everyone else and in his twisted little mind, that makes it A-OK to declare war on society. The LAPD did discover he had issues and rightfully terminated him.
Given that he is a proven liar and a murderer, everything he claims in his manifesto is suspect.
True. (I'll take your word for the liar part) And LAPD is totally responsible for trying to murder those 2 Asian paper-delivery women. There are no good guys here.
-
Hold the phone.
Dorner and Dorner ALONE is at the making of this. Personal responsibility, 100% right there lies with him.
:rollseyes:
You see an unstable guy about to lose it.
Do you take actions to stop him, or do you blithy go about your business or even push him a bit more to see what he'll do?
Are you gonna take no personal responcibilty for the lives lost when you ignored the potential threat or even made it a worse threat?
Dormer isn't the issue. He's a dead man walking and hopefully, he won't be walking much longer.
He is the symptom of a bigger problem.
-
You see an unstable guy about to lose it. Do you take actions to stop him, or do you blithy go about your business or even push him a bit more to see what he'll do?
I poke him in the goods with a stick to see what happens.
[popcorn]
-
Additionally, his core issue is that he will not accept personal responsibility for his screwups in the past and prefers to blame it on everyone else and in his twisted little mind, that makes it A-OK to declare war on society.
Thing is, he isn't perceived to be declaring war on society, he is declaring war on a specific institution that is notorious for being feared and distrusted by the community it operates in. I bet that's the way most anyone who isn't in uniform views it.
We can discuss the individual attributes of the parties involved all day long, their innocence, guilt, sanity or dishonesty.. but you know what, it doesn't factor in anymore. Like it or not, in the public view this has transcended Dorner vs. the individual people that he shot. This has become publicly pulling down the pants of the untouchables, spitting in the holy of hollies...
-
Personally I'm viewing this whole fiasco like the Nazi vs. Klan proverb. Rootin' for the asteroid here.
-
Is Gerard on the case yet?
-
Thing is, he isn't perceived to be declaring war on society, he is declaring war on a specific institution that is notorious for being feared and distrusted by the community it operates in. I bet that's the way most anyone who isn't in uniform views it.
We can discuss the individual attributes of the parties involved all day long, their innocence, guilt, sanity or dishonesty.. but you know what, it doesn't factor in anymore. Like it or not, in the public view this has transcended Dorner vs. the individual people that he shot. This has become publicly pulling down the pants of the untouchables, spitting in the holy of hollies...
reality the ultimate buzz kill
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/22/local/me-poll22
The findings on the LAPD indicate that Police Chief William J. Bratton has made considerable progress on a centerpiece of his tenure -- reinventing the image of the department in the eyes of the public and, in doing so, moving the department and city beyond a past marred by incidents of police brutality and corruption.
Almost 8 in 10 registered voters said they either "strongly approve" or "somewhat approve" of the police performance today. The response was 18 percentage points higher than in The Times' last survey of the city, in 2005.
The percentages of blacks and Latinos who approve of the LAPD both rose by double digits since the 2005 survey, almost closing a long-running discrepancy between white and minority attitudes. Among Latinos, 76% approved of the department's job performance while 19% disapproved. Among blacks, the split was 68% to 25% and among whites, 81% to 11%.
but opinions from the unencumbered are amusing in a tragic way
-
Don't forget dude has already killed two innocent folks: the daughter and boyfriend of a LAPD police captain. Now, given how police & prosecutors seem to go out of their way to destroy whole families, this might be seen as some sort of justice, but I have not yet sunk to the moral depths of police & prosecutors and can not condone such actions.
I also think some folk are mistaking schadenfreude for cheerleading. Taking pleasure in the pain of others does not require that one support he who inflicts the pain.
-
Unfortunately, Dorner's manifesto is a microcosm of the mixed up macrocosm of American political and cultural life. It's a grab bag of fragmented moral splinters that fly off in so many different directions. The LAPD is not what it wants to be or pretends to be, but neither is Dorner. I don't see heroism here, just another twisted soul who went rogue and a bureaucratic enclave that itself has gone rogue all too often.
What has struck me too, along the way, as a resident cynic: the fear factor among the police when their own are targeted--Dorner really got their attention by leaping over that line; the militarization we all have observed in the American constabulary--my my such amazing and expensive toys and such impressive tactical gear and uniforms, must be fun to be in SWAT; the great opportunities for huge overtime Mr Dorner is presenting our men in blue, quite a windfall.
-
This situation (times 10, 100, 1000, or 10,000) is what the politicians fear most relative to an armed citizentry. They have good reason to fear it. My hope is that the potential for this begins to keep politicians working for the people. Law enforcement are mostly the good guys. They are your neighbors and brothers.
So, yes, I am making this a polticial issue and not simply a law enforcement issue.
Dorner's skills are reported to be excellent and he seems to be motiviated. This appears to have been planned out for a while now to take him at least past the initial shootings and get away. Beyond this point, it will take resources to be in place for him to continue. He will resurface again or they will find him frozen to death in the Bear Mt area. His beef with law enforcement probably has some truth behind it, but his mind has twisted his facts and created the justification to take innocents. Hence, he will be executed just like the guy in AL with the bunker.
-
What has struck me too, along the way, as a resident cynic: the fear factor among the police when their own are targeted--Dorner really got their attention by leaping over that line; the militarization we all have observed in the American constabulary--my my such amazing and expensive toys and such impressive tactical gear and uniforms, must be fun to be in SWAT; the great opportunities for huge overtime Mr Dorner is presenting our men in blue, quite a windfall.
Noticed that, too.
Also, I have often lamented the gear queer orientation of many departments. They spend big bucks on hardware when either more training or higher salaries for better quality employees would result in better outcomes. Would it not have been nice to have hired cops with better judgement and dispositions so as not to have shot up two trucks driven by innocent parties? What is that I smell? Yes: big, stinky, panicky, untrained fear. It is not as if we don't have a large pool of men & women with experience under fire and with difficult ROE. I do suspect many of them don't want to truck with what passes for the average LEO on big city streets, these days. Having seen some of those big city cops locally, I do not blame them one bit.
-
Law enforcement are mostly the good guys.
I really wish that I could believe that. I did, once upon a time.
Tallpine's Maxim:
To the best of your ability, treat everyone as you would like to be treated, because you never know when you will piss off the wrong person.
-
Don't get me wrong, I respect the police and understand they have been given, especially in America's urban environments, not only an impossible task but perhaps a deliberately impossible one whose ultimate aim is to criminalize everyone except "the right people" at the top.
That said, the LAPD has an unenviable record of nasty screw-ups over the years, and not just the Rampart scandal (I live not very far from that epicenter) but a string of bad shootings and bad beat-downs in recent times. Our current police chief does not, to say the least, inspire admiration or confidence. From what I can tell he is a politician who provides Villaraigosa's blue shadow.
***
And this: Crazy makes crazy. Our society is very good at identifying obviously wacko outliers, not very good at identifying what should be obviously wacko insiders. Yes, this goes all the way to the top. We are generating the crazies and too many of us don't want, it seems, to understand how.
-
To summarize.....
Dorner = Hitler
LAPD = Stalin
California citizens =Poland
.....any questions?
-
To summarize.....
Dorner = Hitler
LAPD = Stalin
California citizens =Poland
.....any questions?
Sure, if poland spent decades voting for and empowering asswipes who were responsible for Stalin.
I have very little sympathy for Californians as a whole. The majority of them are directly responsible for the CF that is california
-
Poland...Venezuela...Cuba II...who's quibbling?
Meanwhile, the Occupation Legislature in Sacramento is having the time of its life. I hear the mission system is coming back as of the next general election.
-
The LAPD certainly has their share of incidents. I have a relative that was a police captain who was fired for excessive use of force. I have no problem with that action other than he was not fired due to the actual excessive force, but rather because the department and county was being sued for excessive force. There is an important difference and one that the people should take notice of.
-
Sure, if poland spent decades voting for and empowering asswipes who were responsible for Stalin.
I have very little sympathy for Californians as a whole. The majority of them are directly responsible for the CF that is california
Can't really argue with that.....
-
This is kind of wow...
One Facebook page is proclaiming Dorner for president. “We propose electing a man who could no longer sit idly by and watch as malicious tyrants abuse the innocent.”
The description on “We Are All Chris Dorner” chillingly says, “Yes, this is war.” Nearly 3,000 people like the page “I Support Christopher Jordan Dorner.”
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/02/08/support-growing-for-former-l-a-officer-accused-of-killing-spree/
Wonder how many people used their real facebook account to "like" the page.
-
The Go Dorner Go! on the van is just wow.
http://www.scpr.org/blogs/news/2013/02/08/12476/lapd-manhunt-some-cheer-on-fugitive-christopher-do/
-
FYI, the suspect's truck is a black Nissan Titan. NOT a metallic blue Toyota Tacoma. :facepalm:
looks like this one
http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/279350/slide_279350_2074688_free.jpg?1360368705000
-
We have gone from the antihero to the anti-anti-anti-anti-antihero. Dorner is like the people in the Occupy Wall Street movement: half romantic, half insane. He is a pop-culture hero in a pop culture that is aimed at 11 year olds.
-
I can do plenty of lulz at the cops exposing their own incompetence by shooting asian ladies
Weird...Dorner shot and killed one asian lady, the LAPD shot two. I know there are many asians in California, but what are the odds of that happening?
Wasn't there another truck fired upon by a suburban PD? Have they said who was in that truck?
-
Weird...Dorner shot and killed one asian lady, the LAPD shot two. I know there are many asians in California, but what are the odds of that happening?
Wasn't there another truck fired upon by a suburban PD? Have they said who was in that truck?
i know we all look alike but i don't think they are asian the last 2
-
Gotta love this - The second incident was in Torrence
"At that point, a driver in another pickup truck that look similar to Dorner’s drove toward them on Flagler Lane near Beryl Street. Officers, suspecting it was Dorner, purposely collided with the truck and shot at him.The driver wasn’t hurt, avoiding bullets that had ripped through his windshield.
“I heard some man yell at somebody and I saw this argument on the street,” said Ana Filova, a woman living in her car near Dominguez Park.
Filova said she heard someone yell “cuffs” and then heard two shots, followed by a pause and a third shot.
“I said, `Mama Mia, that’s gunshots,” she said. “I was scared. I was shaking from fear.”
Torrance police Sgt. Chris Roosen said the officers were unhurt. He thanked the driver for cooperating in the investigation."
-
Torrance police Sgt. Chris Roosen said the officers were unhurt. He thanked the driver for cooperating in the investigation."
An innocent person being shot at and having their truck rammed by cops normally might encourage them to cooperate. :facepalm:
-
If I lived there or was staying there right now, I would be way the heck more concerned about the rogue cops than the rogue ex-cop.
For one thing, there are thousands of cops and only one of him so the chances of being hurt or killed by cops are far greater.
-
Torrance police Sgt. Chris Roosen said the officers were unhurt. He thanked the driver for cooperating in the investigation."
If by "cooperating" you mean he didn't return fire, I can understand your gratitude. I wouldn't expect much more "cooperation" if you keep acting like the Keystone KGB....
-
If by "cooperating" you mean he didn't return fire, I can understand your gratitude. I wouldn't expect much more "cooperation" if you keep acting like the Keystone KGB....
Hey, I come from the Keystone state. We hold our kops and KGB to higher standards than the LAPD.
-
i know we all look alike but i don't think they are asian the last 2
I heard that two Asian ladies were shot by the LAPD while delivering newspapers.
A big problem CA has is giving the drivers test in both Cantonese and Mandarin, Vietnamese and other Asian dialects without requiring the driver to understand English, I've tried to explain to Asian woman drivers in CA that the "right turn only" sign means they they turn right and not run me off the road - it was a huge chore, they never understood a word I said and I had to avoid them because they were just freaking clueless.
The cops ordered the two Asian ladies to stop and were shot at after they ignored the cops, probably because they had no idea that a manhunt was on and no idea what the cops were saying.
-
I heard that two Asian ladies were shot by the LAPD while delivering newspapers.
A big problem CA has is giving the drivers test in both Cantonese and Mandarin, Vietnamese and other Asian dialects without requiring the driver to understand English, I've tried to explain to Asian woman drivers in CA that the "right turn only" sign means they they turn right and not run me off the road - it was a huge chore, they never understood a word I said and I had to avoid them because they were just freaking clueless.
The cops ordered the two Asian ladies to stop and were shot at after they ignored the cops, probably because they had no idea that a manhunt was on and no idea what the cops were saying.
Does this mean that the cops could see they were two older Asian women (and ostensibly that they were tossing newspapers out the window as they slowly rolled past each house) and they still treated them with an ROE suited to an allegedly unhinged murderer? Also how did they "order them," did they have a dude waving hand signals, a guy pointing a rifle at them, a cruiser with flashing lights and siren?
And this still begets questions regarding the other "mistaken identity accident" where the cops announced themselves by ramming a guy off the road and then trying to shoot him through the windshield. Did that fellow "ignore the cops"?
I've seen folks breach the security line on the water at Naval Station Norfolk back in 2003 when we were honestly rather trigger happy, and they were regarded with greater self-restraint than the LAPD has demonstrated in the last few days.
-
Cops will be cops. Thinking themselves above the law as a uniformed military service. Will the 2 jack offs that shot the Asian ladies face criminal action as they should? No. And that's all you need to know about LAPD and the general thinking in LE circles
-
LAPD Cmdr. Andrew Smith says the department's Chief Charlie Beck met with the women in their Torrance home Saturday to apologize and tell them he had arranged for someone to donate a new pickup truck.
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Newspaper-Delivery-Women-Shot-in-Torrance-to-Get-New-Truck-Courtesy-of-LAPD-190568921.html
-
I will say this. NONE of us here know jack about the two shootings of the vehicles/drivers. So how about we all calm the hell down and see what shakes out when more info becomes available? Yall are always quick to crucify cops after OIS incidents (like the cops that shot the guy in the wheelchair...when it turned out he was trying to actively kill one of the LEOs using a knife). Im not defending or attacking the officers involved in the two shootings just yet, lets see what the rest of the story is. After all, the media is always so accurate and informative, especially with "breaking news"...
-
LAPD Cmdr. Andrew Smith says the department's Chief Charlie Beck met with the women in their Torrance home Saturday to apologize and tell them he had arranged for someone to donate a new pickup truck.
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Newspaper-Delivery-Women-Shot-in-Torrance-to-Get-New-Truck-Courtesy-of-LAPD-190568921.html
I dunno HT sounds like a pure JBT to me...
-
I dunno HT sounds like a pure JBT to me...
He wouldn't be doing it if his guys hadn't completely and utterly screwed the pooch.
I really don't see how there could be any mitigating information not in evidence.
-
He wouldn't be doing it if his guys hadn't completely and utterly screwed the pooch.
I really don't see how there could be any mitigating information not in evidence.
My point is we do not know.
At least they are trying to make amends. There isnt a way to truly compensate for what happened to the people but its a lot better than saying "screw them" and doing nothing
-
Paid administrative leave? What a *expletive deleted*ing joke
If it was soldiers in Afghanistan, they'd be looking at a court martial
And people wonder why folks are cheering for dorner
-
Paid administrative leave? What a *expletive deleted* joke
Paid administrative leave is universal SOP in an officer involved shooting while the investigation is conducted.
-
My point is we do not know.
At least they are trying to make amends. There isnt a way to truly compensate for what happened to the people but its a lot better than saying "screw them" and doing nothing
I'll believe they're trying to make amends when the cops who violated every rule in the book get tossed in jail, like any other citizen would have been, rather then get sent on paid leave.
Paid administrative leave is universal SOP in an officer involved shooting while the investigation is conducted.
If I were involved in an attempted murder that looked as bad as this, do you think they'd give me paid leave too? ;/
-
I will say this. NONE of us here know jack about the two shootings of the vehicles/drivers. So how about we all calm the hell down and see what shakes out when more info becomes available? Yall are always quick to crucify cops after OIS incidents (like the cops that shot the guy in the wheelchair...when it turned out he was trying to actively kill one of the LEOs using a knife). Im not defending or attacking the officers involved in the two shootings just yet, lets see what the rest of the story is. After all, the media is always so accurate and informative, especially with "breaking news"...
So it is OK for cops to discharge their weapons into a vehicle when they haven't even identified the occupants?
What are the allowable mitigating circumstances where it is understandable for police officers to do mag dumps into a vehicle containing live human beings who haven't been ID'd yet?
-
So it is OK for cops to discharge their weapons into a vehicle when they haven't even identified the occupants?
What are the allowable mitigating circumstances where it is understandable for police officers to do mag dumps into a vehicle containing live human beings who haven't been ID'd yet?
I'm not really seeing any justifiable circumstance here.
A: They ID'd the occupants, in which case they were shooting at people that were obviously NOT the suspect.
B: They did not ID the occupants, in which case they're firing blindly at unknown targets.
-
I'll believe they're trying to make amends when the cops who violated every rule in the book get tossed in jail, like any other citizen would have been, rather then get sent on paid leave.
If I were involved in an attempted murder that looked as bad as this, you think they'd give me paid leave too? ;/
Then lets hang them right the *expletive deleted* now, no trial. While where at it, any other time an LEO shoots some one and you dont like the way it looks in a news article, hang them immediately based on the news articles. After all all of yall know everything there is to know about the situation...
And while we are at it, same thing goes for CCW carriers. First negative news article? Get the rope! Military? Same rules too buddy.
-
Paid administrative leave is universal SOP in an officer involved shooting while the investigation is conducted.
Doesn't make it right. When you shoot up the wrong car, one that doesn't even look like your suspect's car, your ass should be sitting in a cell
-
Then lets hang them right the *expletive deleted* now, no trial. While where at it, any other time an LEO shoots some one and you dont like the way it looks in a news article, hang them immediately based on the news articles. After all all of yall know everything there is to know about the situation...
Yeah, because arresting an officer and treating him like every other citizen would be in the same circumstance is the SAME thing as hanging him right *expletive deleted*ing now. ;/
-
Then lets hang them right the *expletive deleted* now, no trial. While where at it, any other time an LEO shoots some one and you dont like the way it looks in a news article, hang them immediately based on the news articles. After all all of yall know everything there is to know about the situation...
And while we are at it, same thing goes for CCW carriers. First negative news article? Get the rope! Military? Same rules too buddy.
How, avenger, would you suppose it worked out of someone else did what they did? Think they'd get to take a paid vaca while events were investigated?
I got 100 dollars that says these officers are back on the force in no time, despite dumping ammo into a vehicle they didn't properly identify.
If the cops want to equip themselves for a war zone, fine. But they shouldn't get away with this kind of collateral damage.
-
So it is OK for cops to discharge their weapons into a vehicle when they haven't even identified the occupants?
What are the allowable mitigating circumstances where it is understandable for police officers to do mag dumps into a vehicle containing live human beings who haven't been ID'd yet?
I didnt say it was. The investigation is under way.
-
I didnt say it was. The investigation is under way.
And, during the investigation, they should be in jail like anyone else would be. Not collecting pay and hanging out at home.
-
How, avenger, would you suppose it worked out of someone else did what they did? Think they'd get to take a paid vaca while events were investigated?
Well, technically when you're sitting in a jail cell while you attempt to scrounge up enough money to make bail they're feeding you AND you don't have to work, so it's KIND of like a paid vacation. [barf]
-
Two words,
Police Union
Can't treat the cops like everyone else, the brotherhood won't allow that to happen.
-
I didnt say it was. The investigation is under way.
I understand your point, and the others' points as well. However, regardless of investigation results, there are two facts that are absolutely known at this time:
1. The women were not the guy they were looking for
2. They were unarmed (PD statement confirms)
Thus:
I'm not really seeing any justifiable circumstance here.
A: They ID'd the occupants, in which case they were shooting at people that were obviously NOT the suspect.
B: They did not ID the occupants, in which case they're firing blindly at unknown targets.
Is absolutely a fair assessment, regardless of investigation result, well, except for the highly unlikely result that they had a command detonated nuclear weapon in the truck, and were coincidentally discovered by police by virtual accident.
It is the "wait for investigation" that we TRY to apply to civilians, but the press and everyone else doesn't care about, but when its LEO's, its expected, and thus judge,net is delayed. A badge doesn't make you beyond the law. In ANY officer involved shooting, the response of ALL involved (including the justice system) should be IDENTICAL to a civilian involved shooting. To do otherwise, makes it a "me and not thee" situation.
I'm sorry, but if these two were civilians, they would be in jail, held without bail.
In most officer involved shootings, just like in most DGU situations, an immediate non-punitive response/confinement isn't necessary or even done (except n CA).
However, this is NOT a normal shoot.
-
Danzigwr Bridge murders. New Orl
-
Danzigwr Bridge murders. New Orl
Point being? They were taking into custody FIFTEEN MONTHS after the shooting. Nice to wait that long.
-
Point being? They were taking into custody FIFTEEN MONTHS after the shooting. Nice to wait that long.
They were still investigated, then charged and tried. They didnt get away with it. And that was in a truly corrupt dept/city
The LAPD officers involved in those shootings can still be charged and tried.
-
I am more concerned about a police organization where such a thing is even conceivable :mad:
Stuff like this doesn't happen in a vacuum.
-
I just want to point out the boomhauerism that came up, for grins and giggles:
After all all of yall
lulz.
=D
Back to your regularly scheduled peanut gallery. [popcorn]
-
They were still investigated, then charged and tried. They didnt get away with it. And that was in a truly corrupt dept/city
The LAPD officers involved in those shootings can still be charged and tried.
I'm sure they will.
However, they are free right now, with no bond. If it was a civilian that did the exact same thing, they would be in the pokey. That is my point.
-
I think Avenger is right on this. The apparently bad shooting investigation is being handled (from what we know, anyway) exactly the way it would be in any department in America. We may not like that police are handled differently in a lot of ways, but that is true independent of the situation (i.e. deranged, murderous ex-cop on the loose and trigger happy cops doing mag dumps into random trucks) or department.
I don't see how an investigation could vindicate the actions of these cops, but I'll give them the same opportunity as anyone else.
-
They aren't getting the same chance as anyone else, that's the point
-
Impunity breeds abuse.
That is what is so disturbing about cops getting free passes and blind eyes turned towards their actions. Hurting people becomes a laughing matter.
The reason they unloaded into the unknown vehicle in such a reckless manner is because their culture of impunity has taught them that no real consequences would come of it. Just do what you feel like, and then maybe get some remedial training worst case scenario.
-
And while we are at it, same thing goes for CCW carriers. First negative news article? Get the rope! Military? Same rules too buddy.
I'd like to hear George Zimmerman's opinion on this.....
-
Regarding the two "shoot first and ID later" LAPD incidents:
1. Any non-LEO would be in jail. CHL or no CHL.
2. They would be lucky if they could make bond by getting a second mortgage on their house.
3. How many days/weeks would their employer wait until they made bond before firing them?
4. Whoops, they got fired? Now they can't get that second mortgage because without employment, they can't swing the payments.
This is quite a bit different from the way LAPD's Finest are being treated.
-
remember that wikki leaks video? guys in a chopper wasted a couple kids in a mistake? what kinda punishment did they get? charges? second mortgage or any of the other interesting stuff you
mentionedfantasized about?
-
Then lets hang them right the *expletive deleted* now, no trial. While where at it, any other time an LEO shoots some one and you dont like the way it looks in a news article, hang them immediately based on the news articles. After all all of yall know everything there is to know about the situation...
And while we are at it, same thing goes for CCW carriers. First negative news article? Get the rope! Military? Same rules too buddy.
So what, we should let 'em off, instead?
They did things that would have you or I *UNDER* the jail while we waited for trial. They did these things either after identifying their chosen targets as being someone OTHER than the guy they're hunting for, or after FAILING to ID those targets. Either way, that would make their position WORSE.
Not seeing anything defensible or excusable there. They need to be doing it BETTER than us. They're doing it WORSE. :facepalm:
-
remember that wikki leaks video? guys in a chopper wasted a couple kids in a mistake? what kinda punishment did they get? charges? second mortgage or any of the other interesting stuff you mentionedfantasized about?
Plenty of examples of soldiers getting put into the stockade for negligence. In that case, it was determined that the pilots did not act negligently.
Collateral damage happens in war. Are you really saying that police going after a nutjob are prosecuting a war in california? Guess what? Standards for collateral damage for cops should be much, much different than a pilot of an attack helicopter in a war.
-
so to sum up after rocketing a van with 2 kids inside they got bupkus? in fact wasn't there basically no investigation? *expletive deleted*it happens? how does that dovetail with the noise about "if the military did it" et al?
-
so to sum up after rocketing a van with 2 kids inside they got bupkus? in fact wasn't there basically no investigation? *expletive deleted* happens? how does that dovetail with the noise about "if the military did it" et al?
Because there are plenty more examples of military folks seeing time over mistakes like lighting up a car without PID, particularly on ground.
In the air, it's harder to get PID. Additionally, the totality of the circumstances suggested that the incident was reasonable collateral damage in a war.
You do understand the difference between collateral damage in a war, and during pursuit of a suspect by civilian police, don't you?
There wasn't "basically no investigation."
-
Because there are plenty more examples of military folks seeing time over mistakes like lighting up a car without PID, particularly on ground.
In the air, it's harder to get PID. Additionally, the totality of the circumstances suggested that the incident was reasonable collateral damage in a war.
You do understand the difference between collateral damage in a war, and during pursuit of a suspect by civilian police, don't you?
There wasn't "basically no investigation."
really? what was the scope of the investigation? didn't the guys on the ground immediately realize what happened? med evac the kid that survived? as an amends? what was the scope of the investigation? don't get me wrong i'd have pulled that trigger too if i thought i was protecting my guys on the ground. stuff does indeed happen
-
really? what was the scope of the investigation? didn't the guys on the ground immediately realize what happened? med evac the kid that survived? as an amends? what was the scope of the investigation? don't get me wrong i'd have pulled that trigger too if i thought i was protecting my guys on the ground. stuff does indeed happen
All the documents related to the investigation are readily available, go read them. In addition, during the VERY SAME ENGAGEMENT (wikileaks removed this footage), the helicopter declined to engage several targets, citing collateral damage concerns. Clearly, these guys weren't just out to murder folks
*expletive deleted*it happens in war. To suggest that this is in any way comparable to what the LAPD is doing is absurd. Almost always, the military makes a pretty good faith effort to punish those who go overboard, and it doesn't happen often.
Police, however, routinely and continuously show recklessness far above what I've observed in soldiers. NY shooter, this incident, many MANY no-knock raids against the wrong house...
-
CSD, are you seriously saying that if military folks shoot the wrong person and don't get punished, then police ought to be able to shoot the wrong people and not be punished?
-
CSD, are you seriously saying that if military folks shoot the wrong person and don't get punished, then police ought to be able to shoot the wrong people and not be punished?
if you can find that let me know.
-
All the documents related to the investigation are readily available, go read them
will they show those soldiers in confinement during investigation? i looked for the investigation didn't find it
-
All the documents related to the investigation are readily available, go read them
will they show those soldiers in confinement during investigation? i looked for the investigation didn't find it
No, but plenty of other times, soldiers ARE confined. It depends on the situation.
Again, these are soldiers in time of war. The standards are a bit different. In my tour alone, I witnessed two soldiers whose weapons were taken and who were confined to quarters pending an inquiry. Not a lot of jails available in country.
Additionally, my unit was investigated for returning fire against folks WHO HAD FIRED ON US. We were not allowed to conduct our missions until an officer from 7th cav determined that we didn't do anything wrong.
As for the investigation, wikipedia as well as google both have excerpts from the official army reports. Those reports were released to the public. Google Moar.
Here's a question for you: Do you truly believe that civilian police should be given as much leeway on collateral damage as soldiers in a war?
-
CSD, your *expletive deleted*ss is showing.
New-fangled more-stringent ROE are effecting what the ground-pounders procure to get ID on a target. They are putting their your taxpayer money where their mouth is. Interviews with folk coming back from their time over there indicate that such collateral damage is taken seriously as a heart attack. Fitz's anecdote reflects what I have heard in all the other interviews I have given the last few years.
Relinquishing arms & confinement to quarters may not be jail, but it might as well be. Where are they going to go? Not like they can hop in their car and drive to Tulsa to escape.
-
Here's a question for you: Do you truly believe that civilian police should be given as much leeway on collateral damage as soldiers in a war?
oh heck no.
but i am willing to allow that investigation to play out.
with cops and soldiers i apply a test. in their shoes might i have done what they did? if i can answer yes i take a real good look and try to with hold judgement. with both groups the biggest fly in the ointment is that first shot. folks assume their comrade had good reason and back that call with rounds. or they mistake that fire for "enemy" fire and respond. thats the "stuff" that happens. ironically i sling papers. more ironically another guy recently got pulled outa the car when some lil old lady mistook the sound of his papers hitting the driveway for "zomg gun shots!".
cops are way outa their depth as prey. add in this guys killing family and one of their own i'm surprised worse hasn't happened. in a perfect world you would use an outside agency but replacing 10 k cops would be a bit of a challenge. i wish this numb nuts would eat his gun and get it over with.
-
Here's a question for you: Do you truly believe that civilian police should be given as much leeway on collateral damage as soldiers in a war?
oh heck no.
but i am willing to allow that investigation to play out.
with cops and soldiers i apply a test. in their shoes might i have done what they did? if i can answer yes i take a real good look and try to with hold judgement. with both groups the biggest fly in the ointment is that first shot. folks assume their comrade had good reason and back that call with rounds. or they mistake that fire for "enemy" fire and respond. thats the "stuff" that happens. ironically i sling papers. more ironically another guy recently got pulled outa the car when some lil old lady mistook the sound of his papers hitting the driveway for "zomg gun shots!".
cops are way outa their depth as prey. add in this guys killing family and one of their own i'm surprised worse hasn't happened. in a perfect world you would use an outside agency but replacing 10 k cops would be a bit of a challenge. i wish this numb nuts would eat his gun and get it over with.
So your position is that the heavy handed response by the cops in cali is justified because they're being targetted?
Guess what? I was targeted in Iraq. Still wasn't allowed to shoot up cars without PID.
-
if you can find that let me know.
so to sum up after rocketing a van with 2 kids inside they got bupkus? in fact wasn't there basically no investigation? *expletive deleted* happens? how does that dovetail with the noise about "if the military did it" et al?
It is implied in this noise. Intentional pejoratives give intentional meanings, regardless of the passive aggressive use of plausible deniability.
If you think the cops did legally and morally wrong and should be severely punished, then come out and say it.
-
It is implied in this noise. Intentional pejoratives give intentional meanings, regardless of the passive aggressive use of plausible deniability.
If you think the cops did legally and morally wrong and should be severely punished, then come out and say it.
unlike you i don't know yet. i know that the 2 "asians" weren't asian.
do tell me what exactly do you know?
-
unlike you i don't know yet. i know that the 2 "asians" weren't asian.
do tell me what exactly do you know?
Did the cops fire without PID? Pretty simple question
-
Finally they released the bounty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0taYTsPBpo
I think they are more scared of what this guy represents than what he can physically do. They are shaking in their boots thinking about what will happen if such defiance catches on.
-
I think they are more scared of what this guy represents than what he can physically do. They are shaking in their boots thinking about what will happen if such defiance catches on.
You mean like murdering three people by ambushing them and killing them in cold blood?
but i am willing to allow that investigation to play out.
with cops and soldiers i apply a test. in their shoes might i have done what they did
Indeed.
Let me take ya'll though a VERY possible scenario here of what might just have occured that night.
It's the dark of the early, early morning. The Dorner thing has just kicked off and you have been warned at your briefing that he's out there, has murdered two people, and has some significant firepower and capabilities. Many, many suspects are found through traffic stops, by the way, so that's in the back of your mind.
You're part of the protective watch over one of the named targets in his manifesto. You've been issued information about a vehicle he is likely to be driving and the information that he may have accomplices.
Near the house of one of the people you are helping you meet an oncoming vehicle without it's lights on and in the fleeting glimpse of your headlights a truck that looks like what the suspect drives. You swing round and flip on your lightbar. You can't really tell the color that well in the bright ass strobing of the blue lights but you call in what you can tell to your dispatcher. The truck doesn't stop, it keeps on going.
Finally it stops. You've got the spotlight shined at the back window, trying to see inside and make sure one of the occupant(s) isn't fumbling around for a gun. You're up and out of the car right after you stop, either shouting commands or you or your partner is calling commands over the PA. "Show your hands!". Nothing happens. Movement in the vehicle. "Stop Moving!" Movement continues. Maybe one of the occupants reaches back, fumbling around in the truck. Oh *expletive deleted*, you think, they're reaching for a rifle and about to smoke your ass. You scream one more time for them to Stop MOVING! It's the nightmare scenario you've feared your entire life. STILL No response to your commands. Your partner shoots. You shoot. You approach the vehicle. In it you make a horrible discovery. You find two injured women who turns out, don't really understand English that well and having never really dealt with LE that much, don't understand the protocols of a traffic stop (i.e., keep your hands on the steering wheel and don't move around and wait for the officer to make contact either verbally or at your window). Where one of the occupants was reaching back for something? Turns out they were delivering newspapers and she was reaching back for a fresh bundle and pulling it over the front of the seat.
It's one of those awful times when you did the right thing according to your perception of the incident and according to the use of force guidelines but it turned out to be to the wrong people. Unfortunately, these kinds of incidents happen sometimes, much like friendly fire. A perfect storm of factors can make for a situation such as this.
In addition, cops do in certain situations have much different use of force rules. I recommend an in-depth discussion with an experienced, knowledgeable LEO on how all this works, you'll find some surprising information...it does not work like military ROE or CCW defense guidelines.
Again, once more, we don't know a lot of stuff. So chill and let's see what the investigation turns up. I highly doubt that one of the cops looked at another and went "Hey man there goes one of them Japanese trucks like the shitbag drives. Let's shoot it up and ask questions later! We'll get some paid time off either way"
Now, if the investigation turns out they did wrong? BURN THEM. But I'm going to wait and see what the hell is really going on before condemning them. Or otherwise we are no better than the people who judged Zimmerman a murderer or any number of other incidents that aren't cut and dried from the start.
-
You mean like murdering two people by ambushing them and killing them in cold blood?
Indeed.
Let me take ya'll though a VERY possible scenario here of what might just have occured that night.
It's the dark of the early, early morning. The Dorner thing has just kicked off and you have been warned at your briefing that he's out there, has murdered two people, and has some significant firepower and capabilities. Many, many suspects are found through traffic stops, by the way, so that's in the back of your mind.
You're part of the protective watch over one of the named targets in his manifesto. You've been issued information about a vehicle he is likely to be driving and the information that he may have accomplices.
Near the house of one of the people you are helping you meet an oncoming vehicle without it's lights on and in the fleeting glimpse of your headlights a truck that looks like what the suspect drives. You swing round and flip on your lightbar. You can't really tell the color that well in the bright ass strobing of the blue lights but you call in what you can tell to your dispatcher. The truck doesn't stop, it keeps on going.
Finally it stops. You've got the spotlight shined at the back window, trying to see inside and make sure one of the occupant(s) isn't fumbling around for a gun. You're up and out of the car right after you stop, either shouting commands or you or your partner is calling commands over the PA. "Show your hands!". Nothing happens. Movement in the vehicle. "Stop Moving!" Movement continues. Maybe one of the occupants reaches back, fumbling around in the truck. Oh *expletive deleted*, you think, they're reaching for a rifle and about to smoke your ass. You scream one more time for them to Stop MOVING! It's the nightmare scenario you've feared your entire life. STILL No response to your commands. Your partner shoots. You shoot. You approach the vehicle. In it you make a horrible discovery. You find two injured women who turns out, don't really understand English that well and having never really dealt with LE that much, don't understand the protocols of a traffic stop (i.e., keep your hands on the steering wheel and don't move around and wait for the officer to make contact either verbally or at your window). Where one of the occupants was reaching back for something? Turns out they were delivering newspapers and she was reaching back for a fresh bundle and pulling it over the front of the seat.
It's one of those awful times when you did the right thing according to your perception of the incident and according to the use of force guidelines but it turned out to be to the wrong people. Unfortunately, these kinds of incidents happen sometimes, much like friendly fire. A perfect storm of factors can make for a situation such as this.
In addition, cops do in certain situations have much different use of force rules. I recommend an in-depth discussion with an experienced, knowledgeable LEO on how all this works, you'll find some surprising information...it does not work like military ROE or CCW defense guidelines.
Again, once more, we don't know a lot of stuff. So chill and let's see what the investigation turns up. I highly doubt that one of the cops looked at another and went "Hey man there goes one of them Japanese trucks like the shitbag drives. Let's shoot it up and ask questions later! We'll get some paid time off either way"
Now, if the investigation turns out they did wrong? BURN THEM. But I'm going to wait and see what the hell is really going on before condemning them. Or otherwise we are no better than the people who judged Zimmerman a murderer or any number of other incidents that aren't cut and dried from the start.
statist!
-
You mean like murdering two people by ambushing them and killing them in cold blood?
That happens all the time and gets little attention. No, what I meant was targeting representatives of the State, showing them that after all, they are just as vulnerable as anyone else. It is disconcerting for those in power. That's why the bounty is so high.
-
Pretty cut and dried to me. Shooting without PID is a fairly black and white endeavor in war. More so when dealing with civilian police.
And, you'll never find out if the investigation reveals wrongdoing... LAPD is notorious for burying these things.
-
Police are not military. Never have been, never should be. They are civilians with badges, despite their delusions of military grandeur. They should be arrested, charged and go through the same process as any other citizen
-
Pretty cut and dried to me. Shooting without PID is a fairly black and white endeavor in war. More so when dealing with civilian police.
And, you'll never find out if the investigation reveals wrongdoing... LAPD is notorious for burying these things.
really? seems most people actually in la disagree
but they can't see the big picture as well i guess
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/22/local/me-poll22
-
Wow.
A 4-year old news article.
Rodney King, if he were still alive, would give you kudos...
-
really? seems most people actually in la disagree
but they can't see the big picture as well i guess
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/22/local/me-poll22
A little progress one direction does not negate the truth that the LAPD is notorious for burying officer misconduct.
Also: find something more recent. The fact that so many residents are cheering the nutjob seems to be at odds with your assertion.
-
Wow.
A 4-year old news article.
Rodney King, if he were still alive, would give you kudos...
this better? has a pie chart
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-losangeles-poll-jun182009,0,6836598.htmlstory
-
Still four years old.
Still irrelevant to the truth that the LAPD has a history of burying disciplinary issues within its ranks.
Try harder.
I suppose a survey saying that people approve of obama negates evidence of his shady activities?
-
unlike you i don't know yet. i know that the 2 "asians" weren't asian.
do tell me what exactly do you know?
I know that the LAPD shot unarmed innocent people, twice. I know that is automatically morally wrong, (possibly criminal) and should receive direct personal punishment. The level of punishment can be mitigated by certain evidence and circumstances, but will never excuse the basic fact, they shot unarmed innocent people and this is morally and legally wrong doing.
But I don't feel the need to mince words, avoid direct statements, and try to reframe the argument to some discussion of whether all US military is always held to the same standard.
How about you? Still haven't answered the direct question...
Are you saying that if military folks shoot the wrong person and don't get punished, then police ought to be able to shoot the wrong people and not be punished?
[This very first question has nothing to do with any mitigating circumstances.]
-
this guys not as in touch as you but hes trying
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-0210-rice-dorner-lapd-20130209,0,3613525.story
-
Asking oneself "what would I have done" is an inherently flawed approach. If I was a cop, and someone was targeting me, it's still my duty to gain PID before I engage.
Another thing: one report said they rammed a car, then fired into the car. At that point, what hostile act did the target commit that justifies complete removal of due process, assuming that car turned out to be the bad guy?>
-
this guys not as in touch as you but hes trying
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-0210-rice-dorner-lapd-20130209,0,3613525.story
Stop drive by posting and answer for your opinions, please. What, precisely, does this article bring to the table? I say again, the LAPD may very well be moving in the right direction. It does not negate any statements I've made in this thread.
Here's a video that proves my point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
-
How about you? Still haven't answered the direct question...
Are you saying that if military folks shoot the wrong person and don't get punished, then police ought to be able to shoot the wrong people and not be punished?
[This very first question has nothing to do with any mitigating circumstances.]
no what i was doing was replying to the usual suspects comparisons of how the military treats an incident like this
-
How about you? Still haven't answered the direct question...
Are you saying that if military folks shoot the wrong person and don't get punished, then police ought to be able to shoot the wrong people and not be punished?
[This very first question has nothing to do with any mitigating circumstances.]
no what i was doing was replying to the usual suspects comparisons of how the military treats an incident like this
And, in doing so, you have refuted none of what we said.
-
That happens all the time and gets little attention. No, what I meant was targeting representatives of the State, showing them that after all, they are just as vulnerable as anyone else. It is disconcerting for those in power. That's why the bounty is so high.
yea the la dodgers are minions of the state
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/dorner-manhunt-usc-chief-dodgers-among-reward-donors.html
-
I went for a run today. 4 miles.
At about 1.5 miles in, I'm running through my neighborhood and I see a BLACK NISSAN TITAN with a LIFTKIT, and a LARGE BLACK MAN at the steering wheel.
I didn't shoot him.
=D ;/ :rofl:
-
mighta been a million bucks
-
And, in doing so, you have refuted none of what we said.
you can't refute opinion or speculation.
you could on the other hand refute the facts in that survey
i mean we hear a bit about the lapd from folk no in la. i gotta admit i think i'm gonna give the civil rights lawyer in la more weight than most internet speculation. and i value the opinion of actual residents of la over that of someone in va
-
you can't refute opinion or speculation.
you could on the other hand refute the facts in that survey
i mean we hear a bit about the lapd from folk no in la. i gotta admit i think i'm gonna give the civil rights lawyer in la more weight than most internet speculation. and i value the opinion of actual residents of la over that of someone in va
You're not getting it.
The stuff you posted does not in any way indicate something counter to my assertion that the LAPD has a history of burying scandal.
This is not opinion, this is not speculation. This is fact.
FYI, i spent a significant portion of my life in southern california. I moved away for pretty good reasons, not the least of which was the increasing militarization and aggressiveness of the police.
-
You're not getting it.
The stuff you posted does not in any way indicate something counter to my assertion that the LAPD has a history of burying scandal.
This is not opinion, this is not speculation. This is fact.
which scandals were those? there is irony here
-
which scandals were those? there is irony here
Are you serious?
You can't possibly be.
Ok, fine. I'm done arguing with you. You win.
-
Are you serious?
You can't possibly be.
Ok, fine. I'm done arguing with you. You win.
you saw the irony in time? Drats
-
It seems your method of arguing your point is to thoroughly disconnect with reality, then when people give up, proclaim yourself the victor.
It's not a very good method.
-
Collateral damage happens in war. Are you really saying that police going after a nutjob are prosecuting a war in california? Guess what? Standards for collateral damage for cops should be much, much different than a pilot of an attack helicopter in a war.
OK, so what would the procedure be if the pilot of an attack helicopter, in time of peace, while transiting over neutral territory, decided to shoot up a few civilians because the had terrorist-like beards?
I'm guessing it wouldn't be paid leave and a sham of an investigation.
-
unlike you i don't know yet. i know that the 2 "asians" weren't asian.
Carranza and Hernandez aren't Korean names?
-
OK, so what would the procedure be if the pilot of an attack helicopter, in time of peace, while transiting over neutral territory, decided to shoot up a few civilians because the had terrorist-like beards?
I'm guessing it wouldn't be paid leave and a sham of an investigation.
I guess it depends on whether or not someone did a public survey indicating that the Army was more "approved" by the public than it is now.
-
yea the la dodgers are minions of the state
Sounds more like a lot of people with cash saying "let's get this s___ stopped before the cops mistake any of us for the guy."
Besides, aren't donations to something like this tax deductible? I doubt it would be all that hard to raise $1M from people in LA who could really use a big deduction, especially now, when their minds will be on this year's taxes while they're looking at last year's bill.
-
It seems your method of arguing your point is to thoroughly disconnect with reality, then when people give up, proclaim yourself the victor.
It's not a very good method.
If it makes you feel better, Fitz, the overwhelming majority of folks here agree with you more or less. Don't let it get your blood pressure up if one guy is messing with you.
To sum it up, LA is not a combat zone. Even if it was, failing to correctly identify a target prior to trying to kill them is a generally frowned upon. It can be grey, admittedly, but this is edging towards the "not cool" side of grey.
-
If it makes you feel better, Fitz, the overwhelming majority of folks here agree with you more or less. Don't let it get your blood pressure up if one guy is messing with you.
To sum it up, LA is not a combat zone. Even if it was, failing to correctly identify a target prior to trying to kill them is a generally frowned upon. It can be grey, admittedly, but this is edging towards the "not cool" side of grey.
It doesn't make me feel better. The fact that there are people in the world who can argue in favor of such terrible target discipline makes me upset. Citing officer safety, or fears because they're being "targeted," to justify firing into an unidentified vehicle, is terrifying.
-
It doesn't make me feel better. The fact that there are people in the world who can argue in favor of such terrible target discipline makes me upset. Citing officer safety, or fears because they're being "targeted," to justify firing into an unidentified vehicle, is terrifying.
i don't see anyone arguing in favor of terrible target discipline. i do see folks saying some might be a bit premature in their judgement. ymmv
-
It doesn't make me feel better. The fact that there are people in the world who can argue in favor of such terrible target discipline makes me upset. Citing officer safety, or fears because they're being "targeted," to justify firing into an unidentified vehicle, is terrifying.
And near everyone concurs with sloppy targeting makes for a bad day for everyone. I was in an artillery unit. We had nightmares about slipping a single number out of hundreds of them.
i don't see anyone arguing in favor of terrible target discipline. i do see folks saying some might be a bit premature in their judgement. ymmv
Ah, dude? You are/were. I'm not saying you wanted to, and you may not have intended to send that message, but you did. Repeatedly. In great detail. And very firmly. You stopped just short of chiseling it into granite or marble slabs and coming down the mountain side with them. I'm not saying you're a horrible person or whatnot. You may have given an impression you didn't perhaps intend to give.
-
Before this smells totally of Summer's Eve, let's take a wee breather and revisit this again at a later date.
This shouldn't be so polarizing, IMHO. =(