Author Topic: Universal Health Care  (Read 38529 times)

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2008, 04:21:42 PM »
It's sad. Really, I mean it. It is sad and even tragic that some deserving folk, through no fault of their own other than bad genes or just rotten luck, cannot afford the healthcare they need. Some would say it isn't fair.

But - well - that's life. It ain't fair. GOD doesn't hand out certificates of fairness when one is born guaranteeing that life will always be fair.

SUCKS!

But what ya gonna do?
As mak says, private, voluntary charities are the correct answer for that situation.

That won't stop the power hungry big government types from using unfortunate circumstances as an excuse to grab more power.

mtnbkr

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2008, 04:28:43 PM »
There is one things that bugs the crap out of me when it comes to insurance: The variety of ways they will cover a given procedure.

Procedure A should be covered at the agreed upon rate period.  Not 80% because it was diagnostic vs 100% because it was preventative.  I had such a procedure done last year.  Guess how the doctor submitted it to the insurance...

Not that I have a problem paying, it's just that I dislike that much of it is at the whim of doctors and insurance companies.

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2008, 04:35:34 PM »
I am not for universal healthcare, nor socialism.  Just thought I'd clear that up.  I am just saying that yes, there IS a problem, for some people.  I completely agree that universal healthcare is not the solution.  Let me say it again, I completely agree that universal healthcare is not the solution.

I don't know what the solution is.

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2008, 04:35:47 PM »
the insurance companies play that game in all arenas   8 years ago i did a fire restoration over your way the insurance company would only pay 12 bucks a sheet for drywall hung and finished  rate was closer to 20   but the adjuster advised/allowed me to pad the number of dumpsters they paid for to make it up
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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De Selby

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2008, 12:31:24 AM »
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/567737
Quote
For the sixth consecutive year, the number of Americans living without health insurance has risen, according to new U.S. Census Bureau data. Approximately 2.2 million people were added to the uninsurance rolls in 2006 — the largest one-year increase in the number of uninsured Americans since 2002.

Annual Census Bureau estimates released in August show 47 million people, or 15.8 percent of the U.S. population, were without health insurance during 2006 — a 4.9 percent increase. In 2005, census figures showed that 44.8 million people, or about 15.3 percent of the population, lacked health insurance coverage.

The whole problem will not be solved if we just deny those 47 million care until they hit the emergency room, at which point they'll get a bill for $10,000 to cover the cost of a CT scan and a checkup after an automobile accident.

Whatever attachments you have to the U.S. healthcare system, dollar for dollar, it is less efficient at delivering services than any other system in the industrialized world.  This is something you can measure by comparing availability and provision of services per capita to the price paid per capita-when you get similar levels of service for half the price somewhere else, the light bulb that beams "inefficiency!" should be going off.

Take a look at the cost for individual medical insurance (which, many of you are forgetting, will exclude all pre-existing conditions)....then show me a cable service or a cell phone service that charges nearly that much on average.

It's tough to afford individual medical insurance because it's usually nearly the same price as the rent, and because it does not cover everything, and most of all because.....you can't keep up the premiums if you can't work due to a major illness.

It is simply not possible, at U.S. prices, for an easy 90 percent of the population to pay outright for treatment of a life-threatening illness like cancer or some other problem that requires intensive therapies. 

Lose a job while sick, get sick while in a job that doesn't give insurance, or try to keep up private health cover while sick, and suddenly the beauty of the system isn't so apparent.  I saw it over and over when I worked on insurance coverage disputes.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2008, 12:48:01 AM »

The whole problem will not be solved if we just deny those 47 million care until they hit the emergency room, at which point they'll get a bill for $10,000 to cover the cost of a CT scan and a checkup after an automobile accident.
This, right here, is the fundamental problem with the universal health care argument.  "We" aren't "denying" anyone health care.  It isn't "our" job to give anyone their health care, and it never has been.  It's their job to give it to themselves, if they want it.

What the hell happened to personal responsibility?  How has such an important concept been so universally forgotten in our society?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 12:52:11 AM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

De Selby

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2008, 12:54:03 AM »
This, right here, is the fundamental problem with the universal health care argument.  "We" aren't "denying" anyone health care.  It isn't "our" job to give anyone their health care.  It's their job to give it to themselves, if they want it.

What the hell happened to personal responsibility?  How has that been so universally forgotten in our society?

And that is the crux of the debate:  The argument in favor of keeping this system has nothing to do with efficiency or providing care; it is strictly ideological.  "Yeah, maybe we would spend less overall and more people would get care...but that's unfair!  That would require me to believe that people have a right to receive medical treatment!"

Personal responsibility, ie, that you have no rights to anything other than what you can snag out of the marketplace, has not been forgotten...it is largely a 20th century creation.  Even feudal landlords believed their peasants had a minimal right to sustenance.  But again, that is another debate, about whether what you happen to believe is fair or not. 

The factual question of whether or not this healthcare system is efficient doesn't turn on your belief that nobody has a right to receive medical care.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2008, 01:17:11 AM »
If you think that more government would make the health care industry more efficient, then you're living in a dream world.

Maximum efficiency (which will never be achieved by government anyway) isn't even the proper goal.  Maximum opportunity is the goal.  Give everyone free opportunity to acquire as much health care as they can, and in whatever form they want, to the best of their ability. 

Many people in our country don't have health insurance because they don't want it.  I deliberately did without it for years, myself, and for good reason.  My resources, like anyone's, were limited.  There were better things I could do with those resources to improve my life.  Under a universal health care system, I'd be forced to waste some of my limited resources to buy something I didn't want, thereby depriving me of even more important things.  That isn't right.

It comes down to basic economics.   Arbitrarily forcing people to spend resources on health care means stealing resources away from other places where they'd be better utilized.  That doesn't benefit people individually on in total.  Instead, give people the opportunity to choose to buy health care, if they want it and in whatever fashion they want it.  That is the way to maximum benefit for all.

I haven't yet seen a good reason to force anyone to provide health coverage for themselves if they don't want it.  And there is NO good reason to force anyone to provide health care for other people who aren't willing to provide it for themselves.

De Selby

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2008, 01:30:12 AM »
If you think that more government would make the health care industry more efficient, then you're living in a dream world.

There's no need to imagine-you can see for yourself that per capita expenditures are much lower, and per capita provision of services equivalent, in many countries where there is more government in the healthcare industry.  http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL34175_20070917.pdf

That's pretty much the definition of efficiency: same service/amount with lower cost.  And the numbers are clear.

Note that most of your argument isn't about efficiency, and deals with none of the numbers, it's about what you think is fair.  But we'll consider that too.

This idea that you have: 
Quote
  Under a universal health care system, I'd be forced to waste some of my limited resources to buy something I didn't want, thereby depriving me of even more important things.  That isn't right.

is a convenient fiction.  You gambled on not getting ill, which is fine...knowing that if you collapsed in a hallway somewhere, you'd be taken to an emergency room and treated.  And guess what would happen to the medical bill in that case? 

Written off by the hospital, or paid in small increments forever by you, until the remainder becomes uncollectable for whatever reason.  In other words, someone else bears the cost, because you couldn't possibly have paid for it without insurance (virtually no one can-the prices are too high.)  And to top it off, you end up in debt for life, possibly completely financially destroyed, and other people still have to pay your bill because the inefficient system generates outrageous prices.

It's the worst of both worlds: other people are still forced to bear the costs, and the individual is completely ruined by massive debts that he/she won't ever pay off and couldn't if he/she wanted to.

The only way to ensure that other people don't end up paying for your treatment is to deny emergency care to the seriously ill and unconscious, which is barbaric and never going to happen. 

The good reason for making everyone pay in is that everyone may end up imposing costs on others, substantial costs, for medical care.  Refusing to contribute to the system that takes care of everyone is gambling with other people's money. 

This of course assumes that you can't deny people lifesaving emergency care without first obtaining payment, which is a reality and a good one, imho, but in any case, however unfair you think that reality is will not change it.


« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 01:35:25 AM by shootinstudent »
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Archie

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2008, 01:57:32 AM »
In fact, part of the problem is the existence of health insurance.  Yeah, I know that's heresy.

Back before 'health insurance', doctors and hospitals had to deal directly with customers.  If the patient-customer could not pay, they didn't get health care; however, if too few people got health care, doctors and hospitals didn't get paid.  So doctors and hospitals negotiated prices and made deals with the patient-customer.

With the spread of 'health insurance' which is actually 'pay the doctor and hospital' insurance, doctors and hospitals realized they would get paid after all.  And their rates went up.  For those who didn't have insurance, too bad.

The government at various levels got in the act.  However the government influence was two fold. 

One, the governments passed all sorts of 'regulations' to make patients safer.  Like a legislator knows jack about 'safety'.  What this really boils down to is lots of intricate legalities about this and that, and reams of reports to be filed to assure the legislature the doctors and hospitals are following the letter of the ignorant laws.  (Consider all the laws passed by governments to make sure you are safe from your own firearms - get the picture?)

Two, governments at various levels instituted 'programs' to help those poor unfortunates who can't afford medical (make sure the doctor and hospital gets paid) insurance.  This of course was funded by mostly the poor unfortunates who could almost afford medical (make sure the doctor and hospital gets paid) insurance.  Regular working people.

Now, the same pack of loonies who screwed up the health care system in the first place want to socialize it.  Just take away all private choices and issue doctors to patients.

I'd like to see a free market approach, myself.  Get government completely out of providing health care, and leaving regulation of health care to independent agencies.  Trouble is, no one has the sand to seriously suggest such a thing, and most of the populace has been brainwashed into thinking the government has to do it.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2008, 02:04:31 AM »
There's no need to imagine-you can see for yourself that per capita expenditures are much lower, and per capita provision of services equivalent, in many countries where there is more government in the healthcare industry.  http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL34175_20070917.pdf

That's pretty much the definition of efficiency: same service/amount with lower cost.  And the numbers are clear.

Note that most of your argument isn't about efficiency, and deals with none of the numbers, it's about what you think is fair.  But we'll consider that too.
As I said, maximum efficiency isn't the goal.  I don't recall anywhere in the constitution that delegates authority to FedGov to maximize the efficiency of health care. 

This idea that you have: 
is a convenient fiction.  You gambled on not getting ill, which is fine...knowing that if you collapsed in a hallway somewhere, you'd be taken to an emergency room and treated.  And guess what would happen to the medical bill in that case? 

Written off by the hospital, or paid in small increments forever by you, until the remainder becomes uncollectable for whatever reason.  In other words, someone else bears the cost, because you couldn't possibly have paid for it without insurance (virtually no one can-the prices are too high.)  And to top it off, you end up in debt for life, possibly completely financially destroyed, and other people still have to pay your bill because the inefficient system generates outrageous prices.
Wrongo, bucko.  If I had needed medical coverage during that time, I would have paid for it myself.  If the cost had exceeded my means, then my parents could have and would have picked up the excess.  This was a risk I/we took willingly.

Truth is, I didn't need health insurance.  Statistically I was as unlikely to become ill as anyone ever can be.  Any premiums I would have paid would have been wasted money from my standpoint, given the near zero chance I'd make a claim.  It was far less expensive for me to simply pay for routine care out of pocket.  The money I saved helped me put myself through college, which has benefited me far, far more than the health insurance would have.

Free choice allowed me to receive maximum benefit, uniquely tailored to my own individual circumstances.  That's the way free choice tends to work, ya know.

Waitone

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2008, 02:06:46 AM »
When will the august group discuss the distortions imposed by gov't heavy hand?  Yeah, we have a problem but how much of that problem is a direct consequence of helpful senators trying impose their vision of utopia on the little people. 

--Why is healthcare tied to employment
--Why are risk pools limited to state boundaries
--Why do I have to buy insurance from a state sanctioned company
--Why do doctor's office personnel go stupid when you tell them "I will pay my own bill.  You don't have to bear the costs of filing for my insurance.
--Why is age related medical premiums not considered a form of employment discrimination.
--Why does a doctor who spent 10 years in training have to answer to an insurance clerk.
--Why are companies that are self-insured (up to a stop loss limit) permitted to fire people whose medical expenses pierce the limit.
--Why does the state retain the right to specify the kind of coverage I can buy.  I don't need massage therapy so why should the insurance company be require to price the risk in.
--Why is employer offered insurance deductible from dollar one on the employer's taxes, yet a lowly individual has to jump over a 7-1/2% fence to deduct premiums and costs on personal taxes.

. . . . . just off the top of my head.

MedicalCareHealthInsurance is really screwed up.  The answer is not to give the ship of fools who created the mess even more power to fix the mess.

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De Selby

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2008, 02:21:34 AM »
As I said, maximum efficiency isn't the goal.  I don't recall anywhere in the constitution that delegates authority to FedGov to maximize the efficiency of health care. 
Wrongo, bucko.  If I had needed medical coverage during that time, I would have paid for it myself.  If the cost had exceeded my means, then my parents could have and would have picked up the excess.  This was a risk I/we took willingly.

So much for personal responsibility-but in any case, at current prices, it's entirely possible for you and your parents to have been unable to pay.  And the important thing is that many who don't buy insurance to "invest in other resources" or whatever you were doing with the cash will not be able to pay-just like uninsured drivers.


The truth about your needs is simply a statement about how you viewed the gamble-but it was still a gamble, and it still involved imposing costs on others because you realized that you would be taken to a hospital in the event of a collapse.

Now your "efficiency" and "maximum benefit" arguments turn on the fact that you personally didn't get sick when you didn't buy insurance.  I don't see how that:

1) Has anything to do with the efficiency of the medical system
or
2) Addresses the problem of imposing costs on others, which is still a real concern, even if your gamble paid off and you didn't need mommy and daddy to either rescue you from bankruptcy or to become bankrupt themselves attempting to pay off a massive debt.  Plenty of uninsured drivers make it home without a wreck too, but there's still a gamble with other people's money involved.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2008, 03:31:19 AM »
So much for personal responsibility-but in any case, at current prices, it's entirely possible for you and your parents to have been unable to pay.  And the important thing is that many who don't buy insurance to "invest in other resources" or whatever you were doing with the cash will not be able to pay-just like uninsured drivers.

A voluntary arrangement for all concerned, personal responsibility at its finest, people taking care of themselves.  At current prices it isn't possible for me and mine to be unable to pay.  Not in any realistic scenario. 

Yup, it was a risk, but it was a risk we took ourselves, willingly.  We know that it's impossible to eliminate risk completely, that to try is folly, and that it's smart to choose your risks carefully.  Thankfully we had choice, and I benefited from it.

Anyway, enough of that stupid argument.  You seem to be obsessed with efficiency, so let's talk about that. 

Read Archie's post.  It strikes to the heart of the matter with regard to costs and efficiencies.  Whenever you remove the incentives to economize, costs naturally tend to rise.  The way to reduce costs is to strengthen the incentives to economize, not weaken them.  Once again, we're back to basic economics.

Government health care would eliminate those incentives completely.  People have zero, zilch, nada incentive to use less care when someone else is paying for it.  Rationing is the inevitable result.  Whether it comes in the form of direct usage limits, or in the form of price controls, or in the form of reduced quality of care, it all amounts to the same thing. 

At least under the current system of private insurance, the piper must always be paid in the form of premiums.  Insurers and people buying insurance must agree to a mutually beneficial balance between the cost of premiums and the sorts of medical costs the insurer will cover.  People now have the option of buying the coverage that best suits their unique needs and circumstances.  Or like me, they can do without when that's best.

The best way to reduce costs would be to increase patients' incentive to economize.  Give the patient a range of treatment options, and let him decide which is the best blend of cost and benefit for himself.  Make sure the patient receives the economic benefit from choosing a less expensive option.  Doctors and patients will naturally turn to less expensive alternatives whenever they exist.

That is the road to maximum efficiency and reduced costs.  Obviously it's too much of a market-based solution, so you'll never go for it. 

Fly320s

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2008, 06:12:32 AM »
Real quick... I need to head to work, but I wanted to add my thoughts before they escape.

I haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize if this has been said.



Heath care is not a right, neither is health insurance.  There are services that are purchased by the user, much like paying a person or company to mow your lawn.  The largest "problem" effecting the health care/health insurance industry is that there are too many believe that HC/HI should be given to them outright without any fees or consequences. 

If a person can afford to pay for his own HC/HI or can get his company to pay for it as part of his employee benefits package, then that is great.  But under no circumstances should one person expect another person to pay for his HC/HI.  No way. no how.
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buzz_knox

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2008, 08:51:16 AM »
But under no circumstances should one person expect another person to pay for his HC/HI.  No way. no how.

I don't know about that.  If you give your life over to another entity completely, you should expect them to take care of you.  That's the ultimate goal of the left, isn't it?  Of course, you lose control over what you eat and do, but that's coming anyway with the lawsuits against the food industry and suggestions for "fat" taxes.

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2008, 09:02:12 AM »
If you oppose Universal Health Care what other altenatives are there? I think most would agree the state of health care is the US in bad shape.

Instead, I pose you this question:
Do you think that the government does a good job at anything?  Have you ever been a part of a government bureaucracy?  
I have been, twice.  The military, and the FAA.  Trust me, if you turn over health care to our government, it will cost more than they said it will cost, be half as efficient, and take twice as long.  
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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2008, 09:09:17 AM »
Instead, I pose you this question:
Do you think that the government does a good job at anything?  Have you ever been a part of a government bureaucracy? 
I have been, twice.  The military, and the FAA.  Trust me, if you turn over health care to our government, it will cost more than they said it will cost, be half as efficient, and take twice as long. 

I am also a part of the government bureaucracy.

You REALLY do NOT want them to have ANYTHING to do with your life. The government does not help, it merely hinders.

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2008, 09:29:44 AM »
Give the patient a range of treatment options, and let him decide which is the best blend of cost and benefit for himself.  Make sure the patient receives the economic benefit from choosing a less expensive option.  Doctors and patients will naturally turn to less expensive alternatives whenever they exist.

Could you be more specific about how what you're suggesting is different than what we currently have? I mean, what is preventing a patient from choosing the other less expensive options under our current system? What specifically are you saying needs to be changed so that these options are available?
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makattak

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2008, 09:34:14 AM »
Could you be more specific about how what you're suggesting is different than what we currently have? I mean, what is preventing a patient from choosing the other less expensive options under our current system? What specifically are you saying needs to be changed so that these options are available?

Allow me to illustrate for you:

Quote
Make sure the patient receives the economic benefit from choosing a less expensive option.

Noting is STOPPING him from doing that. Nothing is BENEFITTING him when he does that either.

Let's say I come to you and tell you you can have steak or McDonald's. It will cost you the same whichever you choose.

What are you going to choose?
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Nitrogen

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2008, 09:35:11 AM »
Isn't it strange that a lot of the so called "poor" can afford cell phones but cannot afford health insurance?  Recent articles attribute the growth of iPhone sales to those with income between 25K - 50K.  Sales to those with income of 100K and above show a modest growth of 16% but 48% growth from those in the said lower income bracket.

http://www.edibleapple.com/lower-income-consumers-drive-iphone-growth/
http://ipod.about.com/b/2008/04/15/teens-drive-iphone-sales.htm



So they have the money to plunk down on toys but they want everyone else to pay for their healthcare. 



an Iphone costs about 1,200/year.
Insurance costs about 12,000 a year.
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buzz_knox

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2008, 09:35:24 AM »
I am also a part of the government bureaucracy.

You REALLY do NOT want them to have ANYTHING to do with your life. The government does not help, it merely hinders.

Another fed gov't worker here.  You do NOT want the gov't involved.  My agency is better than most, and we get fed (no pun intended) up with the crap the rest of the gov't piles on us.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2008, 09:38:48 AM »
Something I have not seen mentioned in this debate...
If we declare healthcare a right at what point does the government then have to force the healthcare providers to perform these services? If we socialize healthcare will Medical professionals like doctors and nurses be allowed to quit and change proffessions if they decide thre is not enough money in it for them?

Would you spend 8-10 years learning a skill that the government controls how much you can earn while practicing? I wouldn't
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

buzz_knox

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2008, 09:45:52 AM »
an Iphone costs about 1,200/year.
Insurance costs about 12,000 a year.

How about the phone in addition to satellite TV, along with eating out regularly?  How much do vacations add to that total?  The people I grew up with who used the ER for the checkups, and who were very happy to continue doing so even when the state began picking up the tab for their healthcare, generally had the amenities my family never had (cellphones, cable or satellite TV, a couple of cars, eating out all the time, vacations).  I guess paying for one's own healthcare does tend to take a chunk of of disposable income.

Maybe it's just me, but growing up around the individuals for whom the hearts of the left bleed, I get a bit disgusted with all these efforts.  If you knew the level of contempt to which taxpayers (i.e. suckers) are held by them, maybe you would be too.

There are a lot of good people that need help.  There are far more people who are in trouble because of decisions that they made and continue to make.  So many get disgusted with bailouts for corporations, yet are all over the idea of bailing out individuals.

buzz_knox

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Re: Universal Health Care
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2008, 09:48:13 AM »
Something I have not seen mentioned in this debate...
If we declare healthcare a right at what point does the government then have to force the healthcare providers to perform these services? If we socialize healthcare will Medical professionals like doctors and nurses be allowed to quit and change proffessions if they decide thre is not enough money in it for them?

Would you spend 8-10 years learning a skill that the government controls how much you can earn while practicing? I wouldn't


That's helped drive many out of the field.  I know of some who will not practice in the areas where socialized medicine is taking hold.