Author Topic: the "net neutrality" FCC Court decision thread, I have no idea about this stuff  (Read 29957 times)

Perd Hapley

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I've surfed the web without being seen as doing so by connecting to my home network via SSH and routing the traffic through that encrypted tunnel.  It's easy to do and looks like normal SSH traffic to the local network (have to make changes to Firefox so DNS queries also go through the tunnel though).  I appear at the destination as having come from home rather than my true origination.  Double whammy, not only did I hide my traffic, but I hid my source. 

I wonder if you could point a fellow to a web page that would explain how to do that?  Unless you want to take the time to explain it yourself, of course. 

I've SSH'ed a bit, just to move files back and forth between my home PC and my server space at school.  But that's about the extent of my knowledge. 
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RevDisk

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Uh, for a telcom geek remote means you can only get 4 copper wires there.  Two twisted pairs of copper wire is enough for a 45Mbit connection last I recalled.  RevDisk might be able to correct me.  If you can get a PHONE there then you should at least be able to get 1.5Mbit over a T1.

I'm guessing you have to deal with an X.25 connection of some type.  Is that correct?

Bad idea.  Running straight copper circuit for miles for data is unpleasant.  You want fiber.  

Remember, these are Euro sites, they use E-carrier.  An E1 is a twisted pair, 2.048 mbit full duplex.


Edit:  Looked up in one of my ref books.  Balanced 120 ohm twisted pair, terminated RJ48C.

This should be the right spec:  http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-G.703-200111-I/en
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 12:19:08 AM by RevDisk »
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I wonder if you could point a fellow to a web page that would explain how to do that?  Unless you want to take the time to explain it yourself, of course. 

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SSH_VPN

Still not for the faint of heart.
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mtnbkr

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We're looking at cellular first.  But as I said, they're being squirrely.  We;re reading the contract and finding things that do not look encouraging.

No doubt.  The only way I would use cellular for an enterprise connection is because it was low bandwidth, low priority, and short-term.  When I was doing the VPN thing, some of my remote users, myself included, used 3G cellular to connect remotely.  It worked fine, but if you were too far from a tower, your bandwidth got small, fast.  I'm sure things have improved, but now way would I consider it "enterprise quality".  Satellite is a whole 'nother game.  Those guys are accustomed to providing connectivity in remote areas and providing that connectivity for all sorts of traffic types.

Check out these guys: http://www.idirect.net/

I haven't worked with them in over six years, but what they had then was pretty slick.  The last time I dealt with them, they were working to provide native 3DES encryption over the sat links.  I imagine they're up to AES now.

I'm guessing you have to deal with an X.25 connection of some type.  Is that correct?

X.25 over IP is pretty well known and understood.  Once again, it should be handled by the edge router.  The ISP should only see normal IP packets. 

Actually, unless this is a very rare or unique protocol, encapsulating and running it over IP shouldn't be difficult. 

Chris

mtnbkr

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https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SSH_VPN

Still not for the faint of heart.

That's how you'd do it between two *nix hosts, but in my case, the client was Windows.  I used Putty to set up the tunnel:
http://thinkhole.org/wp/2006/05/10/howto-secure-firefox-and-im-with-putty/

We busted a guy at my last job for doing this, but he was caught because we could see his DNS queries.  Follow the Corrections/Addendum section to also send your web surfing dns traffic through the tunnel as well.

Chris

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I'm telling you, if you want to surf unmolested at work... MS virtual PC is a free download.

Run your favorite flavor of *nix as the OS, also free.

Get a data plan for your phone. Tether it. Run the tether as the only NIC the VM sees.

The only way you'll get busted is via walk-up, or if your employer has a screenshot logging system. If you fear a screen capture logging system/keystroke capture that will intercept before the VM, get a netbook, and a KVM.

If you consider the stakes, (your job), the investment is worth it.
I promise not to duck.

mtnbkr

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I'm telling you, if you want to surf unmolested at work... MS virtual PC is a free download.
Run your favorite flavor of *nix as the OS, also free.
Get a data plan for your phone. Tether it. Run the tether as the only NIC the VM sees.
The only way you'll get busted is via walk-up, or if your employer has a screenshot logging system. If you fear a screen capture logging system/keystroke capture that will intercept before the VM, get a netbook, and a KVM.

If you consider the stakes, (your job), the investment is worth it.

Actually, in the environment I was doing this, doing what you describe was more of an issue than either SSH tunneling or just surfing in the clear. 

I was mainly trying it to see how it well it worked.  Having access to the FWs (I managed them), I could see the traffic as it passed through.  It was one of those things I wanted to know about in case I needed it elsewhere (nice for use at public wifi hotspots) or if I needed to track down others doing it.

Chris

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Many folks on the conservative & libertarian right make the twin mistakes of:
1. Assuming that large corporations are in favor of free markets & liberty.
2. Assuming that what a large corporation wants to do will further the free market and/or otherwise benefit customers.

Their objective is to maximize profit.  If that can be done via rent-seeking, raising the barriers to entry for their competition, etc., they will do so.  This is in no way pro free market, though.

In this current discussion, RevDisk has pretty much nailed it: the ISPs want to claim common carrier status & bennies while abjuring common carrier responsibilities.

That is completely understandable, from a self-interest (and 3 YO toddler) point of view.  In addition to examining & placing particular traffic on the slow road so as to make good their bulls**t bandwidth promises, they want to be able to beat content providers (Google, Yahoo, pretty much any content-rich website) over the head with "pay me or I'll choke off your customers' access."

If'n they want to abjure common carrier responsibilities, then they need to abjure cc bennies like immunity from prosecution WRT kiddie porn over their infrastructure, monopoly grants, taxpayer $$$ to improve that infrastructure, & so on.
Regards,

roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Why are there telecom monopolies in America still?
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RevDisk

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Why are there telecom monopolies in America still?

"Laws of physics"

"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

mtnbkr

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Many folks on the conservative & libertarian right make the twin mistakes of:
1. Assuming that large corporations are in favor of free markets & liberty.
2. Assuming that what a large corporation wants to do will further the free market and/or otherwise benefit customers.

Their objective is to maximize profit.  If that can be done via rent-seeking, raising the barriers to entry for their competition, etc., they will do so.  This is in no way pro free market, though.

THIS.  Companies make noise about free markets and such, and individual officers within the company may actually believe in free markets, but many companies as entities are noticeably protectionist and selfish.  In this case, it can harm more than just the end customer.

Chris

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And yet the government is the biggest barrier to true competition here.  They're the ones limiting what kinds of alternative competitive services can be offered.  They're the ones deciding who can profit and who can't, and what services can be sold and what services can't.  They say nobody is allowed to sell anything but unrestricted traffic, based on misapplied common carrier doctrine, when there is clearly an interest in alternatives that customers might find valuable.

The free market is still the best option, here.  Government's roll is to ensure fair and open competition within the markets, not to pick winners and losers.  Government is stifling competition, distorting the markets with arbitrary and needless distinctions between what is OK and what is Not OK.  

I say let providers decide what they want to try to sell, and let customers decide which they want to buy.  We'd find out very quickly whether traffic filtering/throttling is a good practice.  Government meddling causes problems; people propose more government meddling to solve the problems.  Rinse, lather repeat.  Pretty son you end up with precisely the kind of tangled mess we see here.

It's amazing how often this pattern plays out,  in all sorts of wide and varied fields.  It's also amazing how the various participants always seem to find ways to rationalize it away.  (Not singling out anyone here on APS, just making a general observation)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 12:44:45 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Uh, for a telcom geek remote means you can only get 4 copper wires there.  Two twisted pairs of copper wire is enough for a 45Mbit connection last I recalled.  RevDisk might be able to correct me.  If you can get a PHONE there then you should at least be able to get 1.5Mbit over a T1.

I'm guessing you have to deal with an X.25 connection of some type.  Is that correct?
Can't get a phone there.  Can't even get electricity.  No wires for X.25 or anything else.

Easy.  Encapsulate your traffic in something else and send it over satellite.

I've run VOIP through an IPSEC tunnel over a satellite connection before.  It works, though can be a bit choppy at times.

Chris

mtnbkr is right.  VPN and satellite is the way to go.  Probably your ONLY way.  QoS it proper and build the apps to be somewhat lag friendly.  If packets are not flowing, check your TTL's first.  It's really not that bad.

Won't have any computers at this site capable of doing vpn or ipsec.  Have a couple of hard real time systems running on embedded machines, but those can't be bothered with maintaining a connection ot the outside world.

Can't add additional computers.  No power.

Bad idea.  Running straight copper circuit for miles for data is unpleasant.  You want fiber.  

Remember, these are Euro sites, they use E-carrier.  An E1 is a twisted pair, 2.048 mbit full duplex.

Edit:  Looked up in one of my ref books.  Balanced 120 ohm twisted pair, terminated RJ48C.

This should be the right spec:  http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-G.703-200111-I/en
Running lines of any sort is prohibitive.  Cost, power, time, legal issues.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 12:53:17 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Balog

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The free market is still the best option, here.  Government's roll is to ensure fair and open competition within the markets, not to pick winners and losers.  Government is stifling competition, distorting the markets with arbitrary and needless distinctions between what is OK and what is Not OK.

And yet they are granted massive immunities, freedom from competition etc already via common carrier status. Are you in favor of removing those monopolies, or are you in favor of fed.gov monopolies as long as they "compete" within that structure?
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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And yet they are granted massive immunities, freedom from competition etc already via common carrier status. Are you in favor of removing those monopolies, or are you in favor of fed.gov monopolies as long as they "compete" within that structure?
An example of gov meddling begetting problems that are solved by more meddling.

We're using bad government policy (monopolies, subsidies) to justify further meddling (deciding what types of service are OK and what types are not) that will lead to still more problems.

The more I think about it, the more I'm led to conclude that the common carrier model just isn't a good fit for the telecom world.  Forcing all data providers to conform to common carrier necessarily rules out innovations that could benefit consumers.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 01:08:10 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

mtnbkr

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Can't get a phone there.  Can't even get electricity.  No wires for X.25 or anything else.

x.25 is a protocol and one that is typically encapsulated in order to run over IP.  It was merely an example.

Quote
Won't have any computers at this site capable of doing vpn or ipsec.  Have a couple of hard real time systems running on embedded machines, but those can't be bothered with maintaining a connection ot the outside world.

Can't add additional computers.  No power.

How do the devices get power?  What do they do?  A palletized sat system with encryption can be literally dropped by air and set up by unskilled labor.  I worked with a couple companies to develop such systems years ago.  VPN is included in many consumer SOHO routers these days.  An Intel Atom based computer running Linux and capable of running on 12v power (car batteries for example) can act as an IPSEC VPN endpoint.

Chris

Headless Thompson Gunner

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How do the devices get power?  What do they do?  
Solar.  We're developing products for remote solar installations (desert locations).  We have our own product (self/solar powered), and a larger system of test instruments for monitoring our device as well as meteorlogical and astronomical conditions that will be powered by a commercial solar panel/inverter.

A palletized sat system with encryption can be literally dropped by air and set up by unskilled labor.  I worked with a couple companies to develop such systems years ago.  
Cost?  Power consumption?

VPN is included in many consumer SOHO routers these days.  An Intel Atom based computer running Linux and capable of running on 12v power (car batteries for example) can act as an IPSEC VPN endpoint.

Chris
We've had bad luck with consumer grade electronics surviving in these environments.

Next product rev will likely contain an ARM based system for doing all of the things we can't do know, such as communicate easily.  Lots of R&D before we can bring that to life, though, so not an option right now.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 01:08:45 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

roo_ster

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And yet the government is the biggest barrier to true competition here.  They're the ones limiting what kinds of alternative competitive services can be offered.  They're the ones deciding who can profit and who can't, and what services can be sold and what services can't.  They say nobody is allowed to sell anything but unrestricted traffic, based on misapplied common carrier doctrine, when there is clearly an interest in alternatives that customers might find valuable.

The free market is still the best option, here.  Government's roll is to ensure fair and open competition within the markets, not to pick winners and losers.  Government is stifling competition, distorting the markets with arbitrary and needless distinctions between what is OK and what is Not OK.  

I say let providers decide what they want to try to sell, and let customers decide which they want to buy.  We'd find out very quickly whether traffic filtering/throttling is a good practice.  Government meddling causes problems; people propose more government meddling to solve the problems.  Rinse, lather repeat.  Pretty son you end up with precisely the kind of tangled mess we see here.

It's amazing how often this pattern plays out,  in all sorts of wide and varied fields.  It's also amazing how the various participants always seem to find ways to rationalize it away.  (Not singling out anyone here on APS, just making a general observation)

Partway there.  I agree in principle, but physics & business reality are still beating on this principle like a red-headed step child.

1. ISPs are not calling for a free market or abolition of the common carrier designation, but to change the deal they made with gov't so that they have fewer responsibilities for the bennies they get.  Ensuring they fill their end of a voluntary bargain is hardly a sign of gov't gone wild.

2. Also, there are going to be messy gov't/business/market entanglements when the business model and/or technological reality requires gov't involvement. 

Stringing cable is the obvious one here.  Gov't has stepped in to allow common carriers the ability to lay cable on common areas and on private property, as well as to maintain it.  Several companies can lay cable (power, phone, cable tv/data), but there is a physical & practical limit to how many cables can be laid & maintained in a system.  Should gov't & the taxpayers require no reciprocity for allowing companies to use common areas and private property (that is not the companies property) to make money? 

Also, it is a practical monopoly, or at least competition is near impossible due to physical & technological reality (since two cables cannot occupy the same space).

If'n Comcast & Co. don't want to keep up their end of the bargain, then maybe we ought to boot their signal & cabling from property they don't own? 

Now, if wireless broadband eventually develops to the point it can equal or exceed copper & fiber optic cabling performance, I can see less need for gov't involvement, though limited RF spectrum will still impose limits on how many competitors can enter the market.
Regards,

roo_ster

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RevDisk

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Solar.  We're developing products for remote solar installations (desert locations).  We have our own product (self/solar powered), and a larger system of test instruments for monitoring our device as well as meteorlogical and astronomical conditions that will be powered by a commercial solar panel/inverter.

Cost?  Power consumption?

We've had bad luck with consumer grade electronics surviving in these environments.

Next product rev will likely contain an ARM based system for doing all of the things we can't do know, such as communicate easily.  Lots of R&D before we can bring that to life, though, so not an option right now.

Next product rev will hopefully be an SBC (draw about 400mA 5VDC), something like a Digi m10 (draw about 25µA 12V passive, 1.5A max 12VDC active), antenna, any active sensors ya need, battery pack (which I'd add redundancy) and tied to its own panels (and/or the central panels).

"Embedded" costs would be roughly $600 one-off cost, plus modem service plan.  Maintenance should be roughly nill if the enclosure system is properly designed.  Draw shouldn't be bad unless you're active transmitting 24/7.  Even if you are, it wouldn't be hideously more draw than your cell. 

I've build them before.  Admittedly, not with satcom modem.  Most "expensive" part is getting someone to write the code.  Hardware is fairly cheap ('bout same price as a desktop, with only 1/20th the capacity which is more than enough), software is cheap (comes with Linux, which can be used for VPN tasks, as well as recording data and handling transmitting), power draw is very low. 
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

mtnbkr

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The palletized systems I worked with years ago (7-8 years ago, prompted by 9/11) were expensive because they were comprised of COTS gear.  I have no idea what they would cost today, but back then, you were looking at high 4-figure dollar amounts and power requirements similar to a desktop PC (that's basically what the sat modem was built on).  I'm sure things are much less expensive and have lower power requirements these days, but I can't begin to estimate it.

That's no longer my bag, baby. ;)

Chris

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MicroBalrog

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"Laws of physics"


What now?

I have a choice between two telecom providers. And I live in a country which is basically socialist.

Again.

Two telecom providers. As in, two different companies that provide access to differing networks of lines, each providing a combination of telephone/TV/Internet infrastructure.

This is not counting cellphone and WiMax-based providers.
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Balog

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Jfruser refuted HTG's point better than I could.

And Micro... Libertarian fantasies aside, can't pull up the paving to run new cable every time a new provider wants to get into the market. Electrical, telco, water, sewer... only so much space for the essential infrastructure.

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MicroBalrog

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And Micro... Libertarian fantasies aside, can't pull up the paving to run new cable every time a new provider wants to get into the market. Electrical, telco, water, sewer... only so much space for the essential infrastructure.

And yet there's not an actual telco monopoly where I live. Physics do not actually mandate a telco monopoly.

That's not a libertarian fantasy, that's a fact of actual life.

There really are multiple telco companies competing in each other here, and there are plans in the work to deregulate the market to allow more.
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