Author Topic: daughter-teacher "problem"  (Read 28632 times)

geronimotwo

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daughter-teacher "problem"
« on: October 03, 2010, 09:55:21 AM »
my daughters grade school teacher calls to tell us she is having a problem with my daughter.  firts she tells me my daughter is reading in class while the teacher is speaking.  then she goes on to say that when she tells her to take one of those personality quizzes where it asks what you you like and don't like, etc.  under the what i don't like question my daughter says something like "i don't like people telling me what to do.".  (i actually lol when she told me this, but her reaction made it clear this was no laughing matter.  i guess we know where my daughter gets her authority issues from!)  the teacher takes the quiz answer personally and makes her erase and redo it.  to which my daughter writes " i don't like people who try to change me."

i am glad that she loves books but reading during class is a little disrespectful to the teacher.  the quiz portion makes me wonder about her teacher, as it seems rather controlling to make her redo what her dislikes are, even if it is the teacher she is talking about. we are going to have a parent teacher meeting over this and i am wondering the best way to handle it.  personnally i want to show my daughter my support without creating a negative classroom envirnment by ticking the teacher off.

we had wondered why my daughter kept asking us to home school her this year.  previously she has been enthusiastic about going to school and the activities there.

any good advice on how to deal with either side of the conflict?

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HankB

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2010, 10:01:30 AM »
This is one of the cases where it would be good to have one of those tiny little video cameras to document your interaction with the teacher . . .
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geronimotwo

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2010, 10:08:51 AM »
i will bring a small digital recorder.  kinda wondering if i should let her know that or not?  also, i am tempted to let my daughter take it to school so i can understand their relationship better. of course then my daughter would find a way to set herself up as the golden child.
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drewtam

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2010, 10:13:36 AM »
The answers your daughter gave are completely reasonable. Even if they were about you and not the teacher. Forcing a child to give the "right" answer will just build resentment, and will not solve the root cause.


If I were in your shoes... before the conference. I would be sure to get my daughters POV on how class is going and how she is getting along with the teacher. Start by asking specific questions about recent days to get her to open up. She might be afraid she'll get in trouble or be ignored if she complains about the teacher.

That way, you can go in to the conference and get the teachers POV. Be careful what you share from your daughter with the teacher if it is derogatory. A person with authority during a school day and a person dealing with an equal at conferences can be two different people.


My POV is very biased. I had a junior high principle pull me out of class and threaten me I wouldn't graduate 8th grade over some minor money issue. Then turned around and lied about it to my parents. By chance, another kid witnessed the event and corroborated the story.
Turns out the school had already received the money weeks ago. Their bookkeeping was so poor they didn't know.
The principal never received disciplinary action.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2010, 10:14:53 AM »
Quote
kinda wondering if i should let her know that or not?

Depending on the local law, I guess.

From what you tell us, it sounds like you have a smart girl. That's not a bad thing. Perhaps you should consider homeschooling her - altough I suppose you have your own serious reasons not to.

You should be respectful and polite and yet firm in your opposition WRT the quiz. There's nothing wrong with your child.  Your child may have done something wrng (like reading in class), but you must understand there's nothing actually wrong with her in this case.
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Grandpa Shooter

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2010, 11:01:20 AM »
I went through what you are relating when my son was in school.  He learned to be an independent thinker and was "his own person".  I went in to the school many times over their social engineering policies.  I would not accept their attempt to reprogram my son and made it clear it was totally unacceptable.

In my case it was 16 years ago and I understand it has gotten much worse since then.  I vote for either charter school or home schooling as long as your child gets appropriate opportunity for socialization.

dm1333

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2010, 11:03:50 AM »
Quote
i am glad that she loves books but reading during class is a little disrespectful to the teacher.  the quiz portion makes me wonder about her teacher, as it seems rather controlling to make her redo what her dislikes are, even if it is the teacher she is talking about. we are going to have a parent teacher meeting over this and i am wondering the best way to handle it.


I think the advice to bring a recorder is bad advice.  First, is it legal? Second, is it a good idea?  Third, do you have any reason at all not to trust this person?  How would you feel if you were the teacher and a parent came bopping into the room and started recording the meeting?  I don't know anything about you, your daughter or the teacher but this seems like an easy way to put the teacher on the defensive and head things south quickly.  Why not meet with the teacher, listen to what he or she has to say first and then go from there?  Getting both sides of the story is important, there may be more to this whole story than what your daughter is telling you.  The fact that your daughters teacher called is a good sign, why not try to meet half way?  I'd talk to her about the test too, and let your feeling be known about that.

Tuco

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2010, 11:28:08 AM »

How old is your daughter?  My guess is 10 +/-.
It sounds like she's unchallenged and under stimulated by the educational environment and she knows she's getting the short end of the stick.
It's a good opportunity to to show everyone the difference between discipline and punishment.

Here's a plan to provoke thought.  Tell everyone involved your plan up front.
Heck, type it up and email it.

Go in to the conference with an open mind, a recorder if you like, and see what the teacher has to say.  You may find out things you didn't know.
Take the recording back to your daughter.  Play it in its entirety. Discuss the meeting with her.  Allow her a chance to respond.

Schedule a conference with the three of you (and an administrator if needed).  Record it. 
Encourage the teacher and your daughter to reach an agreement or compromise. 
Encourage reconciliation and develop a monitoring plan.
 
Schedule a follow up meeting (three - five weeks?) before leaving the classroom.

Maintain communication (phone or email) on a weekly basis with the teacher.  Include your daughter in on them as appropriate.
Ask your daughter on a regular basis (3-5x weekly) specific questions related to the results of your meeting.

Stay involved. 
Let the school know you care and LET YOU DAUGHTER KNOW YOU CARE by holding each accountable for their actions and behavior.
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vaskidmark

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2010, 11:29:39 AM »
You have a couple of issues going on at the same time.  My antennae perked up the tingliest at the boundary violation issues of "personality" tests and instructing your daughter to erase and re-do answers to said tests.  Specifically, I seriously do not believe that the teacher is qualified by the school district or the state board that regulates professions to administer personality tests - even the touchy-feely hippie ones or those from one of the ladies' magazines are out of bounds.  On a personal note - if this were me finding out the teacher was administering those tests I would be filing formal complaints with the school system, the state Dept. of Ed. (both for inappropriate behavior and activity outside the scope of her teaching license/certificate), and the state Dept. in charge of regulating psychologists/counselors (unlicensed practice).  But that's just me.

Your daughter's reading during the timev the teacher is talking may or may not be problematic from an academic perspective.  It all depends on what she is reading.  If, for example, she is reading the text and "tracking" the teacher against the text she should be on firm ground, while the teacher would appear to have near- if not clinical - pathological issues of authority.  If your daughter is reading something outside the tect but related to the subject being instructed then essentially the same thing goes.  If, however, your daughter is doing other school work whilst the teacher prattles on, and your daughter is passing or better in that subject being prattled about, then the teacher has a problem with being an effective educator as she seemingly cannot hold the attention of her student(s).  This needs to be reviewed by the teacher's supervisor through observation and evaluation.  If your daughter is otherwise not disturbing/interrupting the class and getting passing or better grades, there should be no problem except for the teacher interrupting class instruction time to try to deal with an issue that could and should be dealt with outside of class - probably by a referral from the teacher to an educational specialist to see if your daughter needs to be placed i an advanced class here or there.

If your daughter is reading Judy Bloome or other trash (includng the WSJ or Congressional Record) during class then she is being marginally rude and you should discuss that with her.

At this point I would stromgly advise you NOT to meet with the teacher for the purpose of conferring or collaborating.  Go solely for the purpose of fact-finding.  Attend the meeting but do nothng but a) listen to the teacher explain what she sees taking place (recitation of dates/times and description of behavior(s)), b) hearing any statements of opinion of your daughter's academic achievement on both a personal basis and as compared to the class as a whole, c) hearing and statements of personal opinion or "feelings" expressed by the teacher.  Personally I would bring an audio recorder and lay it on the desk in front of the teacher, announcing it is your intent to record the meeting.  Then make a recorded introductory statement noting date/time/place/participants and asking the teacher to verbally acknowlege her consent to being recorded.  f the teacher refuses o give consent turn the device off, whip out pape, and start taking notes.  Tell the teacher to slow down and repeat herself whenever she gets ahead of your ability to write it down.

DO NOT contribute anything to the discussion at this stage except your desire to obtain facts/information.

After the meeting review what you have heard/seen and your emotional impressions of the teacher.  Review the school system's guidelines for the "gifted" program and start thinking about how this might be a direction you want your daughter to go.  Also review your thoughts about getting into home schooling and why this circumstance serves as the impetus to move in that direction.

After all of this you might want to arrange a meeting with the school guidance counselor (do they still call them that?) and/or the school psychologist before meeting again with the teacher AND her supervisor (both of them in the same room at the same time) to discuss your daughter and how she and the teacher are interacting.  From that meeting you might feel a meeting with the Principal and/or the folks in charge of the special education programs are also in order.

[As a side note - you can sue a school district for not recommending a child enter the gifted program as well as for not recommending a child having difficulty in keeping up educationaly enter the remedial program.  Dept. of Ed and Dept. of Justice frown on both.]

When you have contact with the folks at your daughter's school be sure you do not make them see you as antagonistic or hostile on any manner.  All you are trying to do in the first meeting is gather information - let the teacher prattle on and give you enough ammunition to blow her up multiple times over - there is no need to interrogate her.  The audio recording is just because you recognize the issue is important and don't want to risk missing anything she tells you.  Yeah!  Tat's my story, and I'm sticking to it.  :angel:

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vaskidmark

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2010, 11:35:50 AM »
I would have agreed with Tuco if there had not been the two issues of pesonality tests and telling your daughter to change her resposes.

To me that changed the dynamic to the teacher making some moves that are not only unprofessional but illegal.  Further, there is a spidey-sense tingling that the teacher's supervisor is aware of the actions and either does not recognize the professional boundary violations or does but has not taken any corrective action.  Both are bad juju.

That the teacher can see only one solution to your daughter's reading in class merely suggests she is not as good an educator as she could be.  A better teacher would exploit the situation, not seek to quash it.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

MechAg94

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2010, 11:51:12 AM »
The strange part to me is that the teacher is picking on her for reading.  It's not like she is talking, passing notes, day dreaming, sleeping, or causing a disruption.  If she is actually making good grades, that is another reason to leave her alone.  I used to read in High School, but mostly in that dead time after finishing the exercise early and having to wait for the end of class.   I guess most teachers did want kids to pay attention.  I would be curious if the entire class is behaving well and your daughter is the only issue.  I doubt it.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2010, 12:33:19 PM »
a lot would depend on what she was reading.
its still early in the year if the teacher fails my test time for a new one
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MillCreek

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2010, 12:45:13 PM »
I showed this thread to Ms. MillCreek, who has been teaching at the elementary level for 17 years now.  After she got done rolling her eyes at the suggestions for concealed (and probably illegal) audio and video recording, and the suggestion that the teacher is practicing psychology without a license, illegal activities and committing boundary violations, she had some ideas.

It is far more likely that the teacher wishes to help the child succeed than is trying to screw the child over.  The 'personality quiz' was probably a tool used by teachers to help identify the child's likes and dislikes in the classroom environment.  Reading in class is a wonderful idea, but the timing is everything.  If the child is reading or doing other activities during active classroom instruction while the other children are paying attention, this is disrespectful, and most teachers would agree with this.  For example, a child reading a fiction book during math instruction is not paying attention.  A key skill in teaching is called 'classroom management', in which the teacher tries to herd the cats and keep them on track.  If one child starts to disrupt the learning environment, other kids pick up on that and soon you have chaos.  The kids who want to learn cannot because the classroom has been disrupted.

She points out that the OP is hearing only one side of the story.  We all like to believe our children are giving us an accurate and unbiased account, but this is not always the case.  She suggests that you go have a conference with the teacher with the attitude of finding out what is the problem and how the both of you working together can help your child succeed.  If, for whatever reason, you are not happy with the results of that conference, you should take it to the building principal or vice principal.  She points out that as a teacher, she has your child for seven hours or so, and you are responsible for the other seventeen.  Who is the bigger influence?

For some of the rest of the comments, she suggests you might want to try the decaf instead.
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Boomhauer

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2010, 01:08:56 PM »
You want the truth? Your kid is probably learning more from reading books than from the teacher.

I used to read in class if useless crap was being "taught". I'd also get books taken away from me regularly and called out in class.

Quote
I went through what you are relating when my son was in school.  He learned to be an independent thinker and was "his own person".  I went in to the school many times over their social engineering policies.  I would not accept their attempt to reprogram my son and made it clear it was totally unacceptable.

They tried to put me on Ritalin and such once they identified that I was a very independent learner. I never misbehaved in class. I always sat down and was very quiet and respectful of the teacher, and I did my work diligintly. Apparently, those are the signs of ADD...

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Gowen

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2010, 01:39:11 PM »
Home school man, home school!!  They want little automatons.
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Tuco

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2010, 01:53:54 PM »
Quote
If the child is reading or doing other activities during active classroom instruction while the other children are paying attention, this is disrespectful, and most teachers would agree with this.  For example, a child reading a fiction book during math instruction is not paying attention.  A key skill in teaching is called 'classroom management', in which the teacher tries to herd the cats and keep them on track.  If one child starts to disrupt the learning environment, other kids pick up on that and soon you have chaos.  The kids who want to learn cannot because the classroom has been disrupted.

And that philosophy right there, the "one-size-fits-all" philosophy of public education, is arguably the biggest threat to continued American exceptionalism.

Henry Ford may have had good ideas for building cars, but his ideas don't translate so well toward building minds.

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HankB

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2010, 03:29:56 PM »
Quote
. . . she tells her to take one of those personality quizzes where it asks what you you like and don't like, etc.  under the what i don't like question my daughter says something like "i don't like people telling me what to do.".   . . . the teacher takes the quiz answer personally and makes her erase and redo it.
If this is accurate, basically what happened here is that the teacher asked your daughter for her opinion - and when she didn't like the answer, she told her to have a different opinion - or lie.

Neither is an acceptable action on the teacher's part. Any decent teacher would have just explained to the child that lots of times we're told to do things we don't like, but we just have to deal with it. Telling a young girl, in essence, that she's not allowed to dislike something, is borderline abuse.

Document your interactions with the teacher. Agree that you don't want to go in and get medieval with her until you hear her side of the story, but just present yourself as a reasonable, interested parent who wants to know what's going on. Odds are, you'll be able to sort things out in a satisfactory manner.

But just in case you're dealing with a genuine lunatic (like the nun I had in 4th grade!) - document it all.
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Northwoods

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2010, 03:48:15 PM »
The strange part to me is that the teacher is picking on her for reading.  It's not like she is talking, passing notes, day dreaming, sleeping, or causing a disruption.  If she is actually making good grades, that is another reason to leave her alone.  I used to read in High School, but mostly in that dead time after finishing the exercise early and having to wait for the end of class.   I guess most teachers did want kids to pay attention.  I would be curious if the entire class is behaving well and your daughter is the only issue.  I doubt it.

My 6th grade English teacher confiscated my book because I was reading rather than doing essay work she wanted me to do.  Mind you, it wasn't due during class, but could have been done at home.
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MillCreek

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2010, 03:57:05 PM »
Ms. MillCreek routinely confiscates iPods, cellphones and other electronic equipment being used during class (she is teaching fifth grade this year).  She returns them at the end of the day.  If she confiscates something from a child three times, she holds onto it until the parent comes and picks it up.  She reports that she has not had to confiscate something four times.
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Vodka7

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2010, 04:58:44 PM »
I second the recommendation on asking about the gifted program. I moved around a lot and had trouble getting into the gifted program once--generally my reading and writing scores were through the roof, but my math was only average. My parents got involved and it worked out where 90% of the time I'd be in the gifted program, but I'd walk down the hall to an otherwise empty desk for math one hour a day with a regular class.

I did the reading in class thing up through my senior year of high school, but I only saved reading unrelated material in class for the worst teachers.  If you were a good teacher, I'd pay attention in your class and participate. If you were average, I'd sit there and at least only read out of your book, so we could both pretend I was at least on topic. If you were a bad teacher, I'd read whatever I want, and sit there staring at the wall when you took my book away.  I broke more than a few of the bad teachers, and spent most of the second half of my geometry class reading fiction when she finally gave up on me.

So, with my own experience heavily coloring my opinion, I assume your daughter either has a bad teacher, or a teacher who has to teach to the center of the class, which is well below her personal level. If they won't get her into the gifted program, follow C&SD's advice and see if you can at least get her moved into another class.  People don't like admitting that there are horrible, untalented teachers out there, but of course there are, same as in any other profession. Don't let your daughter waste a year of her education with one if you can help it.

lupinus

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2010, 06:06:48 PM »
I'd walk in with two main points.

First I'd get the personality quiz off my chest and make it known expecting my daughter to changer her answers to what the teacher wants to hear is under no circumstances acceptable. If you don't like the idea of having unfavorable answers about yourself, don't ask the question.

The book thing though requires more looking in to. What type of book is she reading? When is she reading it? If your daughter is reading it after finishing an assignment or when she otherwise has free time, I fail to see the problem. If your daughter is reading from her text book during the instruction, I fail to see the problem. If during "free time" the teacher is blathering and your child prefers to read, I still fail to see the problem. However, if she's reading unrelated material during classroom instruction or reading while she's supposed to be doing an assignment, I'm inclined to agree with the teacher. Reading is great and something so few kids today show interest in. But, like everything else, there is a time and place for it. While the teacher is explaining the course material or while she's supposed to be completing an assignment isn't the time to pull out her favorite book and bury her nose in it.
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geronimotwo

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2010, 07:00:58 PM »
yes, my daughter is not only smart, but highly intuitive.  every time i've sat down to reply to this today, she would hop over to see what i was doing.

the book was from the "how to train a dragon" series.  the teacher also gives time for free reading in the classroom,  so i am inclined to go along with this being disrespectful.  still, my daughter is getting above 95% average on all of the work we are seeing.   i am afraid that she is bored.  unfortunatly, i don't believe that we have a "gifted" program in this school.

we will be meeting with the teacher later this week.  initially i was thinking we would take our daughter with us, but now i am thinking it will be better to talk to them seperately.  we will try to keep this as an information gathering quest as much as possible, and i may ask if i can tape the conversation so i can aproach my daughter with the information later.  as far as seeking satisfaction with the principal, we have already called the principal out on another issue and had the school board take action to remedy that case.  (so we are not attending any of his pool parties.)  also, this is a small town where most of the teachers (including my daughter's), the principal, and superintendant all grew up here.  the teacher is also on the principals brown nose list as far as i can see, and has been teaching for about 7 years now.  i personally feel this is about the time when a teacher either starts to show how good they really can be, or they start to burn out and stop being innovative.  at least she still cares enough to call.

Quote
To me that changed the dynamic to the teacher making some moves that are not only unprofessional but illegal.  Further, there is a spidey-sense tingling that the teacher's supervisor is aware of the actions and either does not recognize the professional boundary violations or does but has not taken any corrective action.  Both are bad juju.

i would hope that these professionals are above picking on my daughter as a grudge match, but who can say.  we will know more later.
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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2010, 07:10:30 PM »
Quote
i would hope that these professionals are above picking on my daughter as a grudge match, but who can say.  we will know more later.

I've never met school administration officials who were above doing the "respect ma authoritah" shtick. Fuss about something in HS? Your car is definitley getting "randomly" searched, and more than once.




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MillCreek

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2010, 07:14:29 PM »
Ms. MillCreek says that for a first meeting like this, it is best not to take the child.  The teacher or you may be less than candid discussing matters in front of the child.

She says that it is a very good idea to bring the child along if it is a serious discipline problem, and the parent and the teacher want to present as a united front to the child in putting limits on behavior, discussing consequences and a plan to improve the situation.  This is not the case here.

She also reports that some school districts do not allow taping of parent-teacher conferences, the teacher will not permit it, or they will want to get the district lawyers involved.  I myself recommend against it. It creates an adversarial aspect from the beginning and it makes people nervous.  When I am interviewing a provider or staff members in a lawsuit, I don't tape them.

If your boss has a conversation with you, does he/she pull out a tape recorder and turn it on? Probably not.
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MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


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RevDisk

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Re: daughter-teacher "problem"
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2010, 08:00:40 PM »

You could ask the teacher why having a bright, independent thinking kid with her own mind is a bad thing?

Seriously, I have to side with your daughter on this one.  The teacher is the problem.  But, she's likely in a union, so good luck getting anything done about it.  Only shot in the dark is if she tries the other children as badly, and their parents care enough about their child(ren) to do something about it.  I never saw many parents that did.

Might want to talk to BrokenPaw, he had some school issues and could give you some good tactical and tactful advice on the situation.
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