daughter-teacher "problem"

[BridgeRunner]

Pelikan has several child/student fountain pens available.  I agree that they are a great way to improve handwriting.  If that doesn't work, try an italic nib.  That was what really got me to work on developing decent handwriting. 

Is there no advanced/gifted class available?  If the work is to grade level and she's getting through it that quickly compared to the rest of the class, is she in the right class? 

In middle school, I had one teacher who worked out extra assignments with me, including more advanced stuff to read when everyone else was finishing up their work.  At the time, Branagh's Henry V had recently been released and I was interested in all things English and Shakespeare, so she had me reading the other Shakespeare histories and writing essays on the plays, the history, and the politics.  It was pretty great to have a teacher show some sign of caring about how bored out of my mind I was listening to the rest of the class struggle through some book or other for weeks on end.  So much better than merely being permitted to read whatever I had handy when I finished my work.

[sanglant]

if you go FP, think about grabing some FPN ink to go with it. the Galileo brown is my favorite. or noodler's.

but in my experience, i write faster with a FP.

some pen links.
http://www.jetpens.com/index.php/cPath/214 <- has some cheap pens
http://www.xfountainpens.com/Fountain-Pens-s/6.htm
http://www.isellpens.com/

[geronimotwo]

i think we have a fountain pen around somewhere.   might be worth trying.  if i can't find that, we do have a quill pen replica we bought while visiting fort stanwix!

[MillCreek]

Ms. MillCreek was working late at school but just got home.  I asked for her ideas.  Here is what she said:

"If it's a girl, it's usually (not always) but usually a phase.  Best thing the parent can do is take assignments that come home that seems to be important and do two things, have the child go over the papers orally discussing the answers and rereading her work, and then, if that doesn't solve the situation then have the child redo the answers at home: erase and redo.  There are usually one of a few basic reasons for sloppy work:  attitude (which can usually be solved with consistent parent support and positive communication w/ teacher), undeveloped fine motor control, and ADD/ADHD (which only a physician can diagnose and is difficult to diagnose, especially in girls, until 3-5th grade).  I'd start with the positive reenforcement/communication w/ teacher and making sure student knows there is communication so she knows she is supported and that her work is important.

It is also possible that the student is bored and does not have enough challenging work.  You should ask the teacher if she can have extra assignments, extra-credit work or work above the grade level.  However, my experience is that students who are so bright that the curriculum is not challenging them usually are challenging themselves with high end reading, high end questions and responses orally, they usually get very fixated on a big idea in science or math, etc. Then class work can be sloppy and hurried but when the child knows it matters, they show they are capable of quality work.  That's why the piece of positive communication with the teacher is so important.  Rarely is anything figured out and solved over a course of two weeks or even half a year. That's why teachers notes and follow through of the previous teacher is so important.

Very, very, very few students are ever "bored" and not challenged, but lots and lots of parents think that is the problem because they are so emotionally attached to their child and it's pride extension to be able to say my child is bright and is bored in school."

Please let me know if I or Ms. MillCreek can be of any further help.

PS: She said to come back and emphasize that you and your teacher are in the best position to see if this advice fits since you have the experience with your child, and she obviously has never taught your child.

[sanglant]

add/adhd, if you think it's one of these. the first step is one week with NO caffeine and reduced sugar/carbs. i have known entirely to many kids to have they're lives ruined because they were getting to many stimulants and the parents/teachers/doctors were to short sighted to see the cause and just threw more stimulants on top.

this is some interesting reading to.

[BridgeRunner]

add/adhd, if you think it's one of these. the first step is one week with NO caffeine and reduced sugar/carbs. i have known entirely to many kids to have they're lives ruined because they were getting to many stimulants and the parents/teachers/doctors were to short sighted to see the cause and just threw more stimulants on top.

this is some interesting reading to.

Yeah, but:

In the grand APS tradition of thread drift, no particular relationship to Ms. Geroninotwo's situation,

I lost a whole lot of my life to "girls usually don't get ADD/ADHD".  I have ADHD.  It was diagnosed two months ago.  I am 31.  I had every sign of ADD as a kid, except I didn't misbehave and I'm not a boy.  Didn't see much point in it, and had too much empathy to want to be unnecessarily mean to other kids or to the teacher.  Girls....

You can bet your sweet bippy I'm addicted to Adderall.  It is salvaging my life. I'm the first to admit that I don't mind being on a drug that makes me feel good, has probably raised my IQ by 10-15 points, and contributes to weight loss.  Beats the heck out of the ten years I spent bouncing around between drugs that did nothing at all but make me feel worse, impede my ability to work, literally made me stupider, and made me fat.  

Brains need dopamine.  Mine doesn't have enough.  Adderall helps.  A lot.  I'm also addicted to water.

I agree that misdiagnosis is terrible:  I've lost a whole lot of potential in the past decade living with the wrong diagnoses, at time taking meds that were, in hindsight, the polar opposite of what I needed, and which were very destructive.  It sure seems like the latest fad diagnosis is something to avoid.  Trouble is, if it's the correct diagnosis, there is a whole lot to be lost by looking for some other explanation or ignoring the problem.  The fact that hundreds of young boys are taking Ritalin to make their parents/teachers feel better about their school performance doesn't change the fact that I need Adderall (or a similar drug) because I have chronically low dopamine.  

I really, really wish that twenty years ago, someone had said "Yeah, so girls don't usually have ADD, but what if this one does?"

Also, sugar is not a stimulant.  Nor are carbs.  

[sanglant]

it has that effect on some people, and you'll note i said first step. not this will cure it every time, or there's no such thing.

[BridgeRunner]

it has that effect on some people, and you'll note i said first step. not this will cure it every time, or there's no such thing.

I was responding more to the Ritalin (kinda' sorta') = cocaine tone of the link you posted.  Well, and a little to Mrs. Millcreek's opening comment "If it's a girl...."

[sanglant]

ah, the only time that's really an issue is when it's given to a kid that doesn't need it. it really does mess them up. around here some of the teachers have decided any kid that they have trouble teaching(aka they don't worship the teacher) needs to be drugged.

[KD5NRH]

I'm also addicted to water.

If you find a way to beat that, let me know.  Cold turkey definitely doesn't work.

[KD5NRH]

if you go FP, think about grabing some FPN ink to go with it. the Galileo brown is my favorite. or noodler's.

I'll second Noodlers; all my FPs are running either their Blue-Black or Gruene Cactus, including the Pilot Varsity I keep as a backup for the Hero 616 and Sailor Recruit I use at work.

[HankB]

It is also possible that the student is bored and does not have enough challenging work.  You should ask the teacher if she can have extra assignments, extra-credit work or work above the grade level.  

Not a bad idea, but be sure the child actually likes the extra assignment, or she'll rebel at being punished with pointless "busy work" that isn't being imposed on the other kids. (In terms of "extra-credit" . . . if the child is already earning an "A" she's a bright kid, and it won't take her long to figure out that "extra credit" doesn't mean anything. If she's NOT earning an "A" then be sure there's a tangible benefit - like raising the grade - to the extra work.)

[MillCreek]

Well, and a little to Mrs. Millcreek's opening comment "If it's a girl...."

I asked Ms. MillCreek about this, and she said that her advice would have been different for a male student of this age.  In her experience, rushing through assignments and turning in sloppy work is more common amongst boy students, usually is not a phase and therefore requires more work to address. Thus, she wanted me to find out the age and gender of the student to target her advice. I bet this is probably consistent with your teaching experience, too.

[BridgeRunner]

Nope, I only taught girls. 

Oddly, I'm not a big fan off Noodler's.  Takes too long to dry.  Diamine is awesome, though, as is Mont Blanc (ink, not pens).

[HeroHog]

In grade school, I used my "bad handwriting" to cover up for answers I didn't know. Didn't take them long to catch that one. My dad made me practice my penmanship for hours and hours and lines and lines. My handwriting still sucks and I truly wish it didn't.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

my handwriting is so bad the nuns gave up  let me go back to printing at end of third grade

[AJ Dual]

In grade school, I used my "bad handwriting" to cover up for answers I didn't know. Didn't take them long to catch that one. My dad made me practice my penmanship for hours and hours and lines and lines. My handwriting still sucks and I truly wish it didn't.

I just don't have the fine motor control to do that either. My penmanship never really progressed past the third grade level either. So I always had to resort to block printing. And even then, as I lose control, I have to press/work harder and harder until my hand is exhausted and trembling for more than a paragraph.

However, the computer revolution came along just in time for me. I can type fine. And I have no problems with fine motor skills for precision mechanical/electrical things either. Just handwriting.

[MillCreek]

Ms. MillCreek sometimes drafts me to help her correcting and grading papers.  Some of the chicken scratches can hardly be read and she is teaching fifth grade this year.  She says this is due to a couple of factors:  handwriting instruction/penmanship has been cut down dramatically in favor of other aspects of education, and the growth of computers.  She stated that handwriting/penmanship is not something that is tested under No Child Left Behind, so schools don't get dinged or lose money for poor penmanship whereas they do for things like reading and math.  

I started block printing back in fourth grade or so, and still do it now.  The only thing I handwrite in cursive any more is signing checks or receipts.

[vaskidmark]

I'm still fairly negative wrt the situation as a whole.  I'm going with the sloppiness as an indication of boredom as opposed to anything else.  I'm opposed to "extra credit" unless it gets the kid promoted to the next grade faster or otherwise accelerates her overall academic status.  Anything less is busy-work and she will most likely see it as such.

If there were less indication that the specific teacher did not have control issues I'd recommend some sort of modfied Montessori approach to the use of the "down time" the child seems to be saddled with.  I'm just not convinced the teacher can tolerate someone going off on their own tangent and the teacher needing to be as quick and broadly interested as the kid might turn out to be.

I'm still going to pimp for an assessment to be placed in a gifted program - if only for one or two subjects if that's what comes out of the assessment.  Kids who are in fact capable of doing more should be rewarded with formal recognition of their capabilities rather than hobbled and made to - for them - shuffle along at the slower pace of the rest of the class.

IIRC 5th grade is the last one before middle school.  Middle school, IIRC, is where kids either get mired down or start to really shine and parents can start to see some possibilities of their child being advanced a grade without major problems of immaturity wrt the rest of the class.

In the interim I'd see what can be done at home to improve penmanship - but only to a certain level that does not include endless practice lines.  Remember, as Mrs. Millcreek has noted, most of her "writing" from this point on in her life will be done using a keyboard.  Yes, some handwriting will take place, but it is exceedingly common for that to be done via block-letter printing.  Unless the child has pre-selected a goal as a caligrapher I don't see a need to get too concerned.  (And yes, caligraphy can be a wonderful hobby.  But only if she shows interest.)

Yes, my bias to advocate for the kid is in play.  Never denied it.  It comes from never having attended a classroom until my second half of Junior year in HS - hom-schooled back when it was called State Dept. Dependants' Correspondence Courses.  Mater & Pater encouraged me to complete a month's worth of lessons before the end of the first week of the month, and then I got "enrichment" via real-life exposure to both cultural and scientific stuff (read: dragged to museums, art galleries, the opera, and working for free as Dad's lab assistant and lecture/meeting flip-chart page turner).  It also comes from a decade of work with "problem kids" who benefitted from an adjustment in their educational placement (remedial, advanced, or lets-get-him-out-and-into-a-real-job) as part of attempting to prevent them from becoming career prison inmates.

stay safe.

[KD5NRH]

Not a bad idea, but be sure the child actually likes the extra assignment, or she'll rebel at being punished with pointless "busy work" that isn't being imposed on the other kids.

+100

I see it a lot at work too; the few guys who actually get 12-14 hours worth of work (based on the company's averages) done in a 10 hour shift get to do extra work and still get the same pay as the slackers doing 8 or less.  They either burn out hard or learn to slack within a few months.

[Hawkmoon]

Not a bad idea, but be sure the child actually likes the extra assignment, or she'll rebel at being punished with pointless "busy work" that isn't being imposed on the other kids. (In terms of "extra-credit" . . . if the child is already earning an "A" she's a bright kid, and it won't take her long to figure out that "extra credit" doesn't mean anything. If she's NOT earning an "A" then be sure there's a tangible benefit - like raising the grade - to the extra work.)

Extra credit is generally horse pucky.

In 10th grade math class I had a 103 average, and a couple of my classmates were also over 100 ... for the year.

All we got was 'A.'

Big bleepin' deal.