Flare guns

[lee n. field]

Looks like there's a few more out there: http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=172491.

Just FYI

[Balog]

Damn, I was hoping the supply would dry up so I could flip mine for a profit. With the baby on the way I realized I don't have the time or funds to devote to yet another branch of the hobby.

[AJ Dual]

We're only really 2-3 months out from when they dried up at Centerfire. Anyone sitting on a stock of them can't realistically have more than a 1-200 at most IMO. The serial #'s don't go any higher than 3000 it seems, and even then, not all of them made it to the U.S. in the first place. There are/were some surplus outfits selling them over in Europe too. I'm guessing only 2000-2500 made it over here.

As word slowly gets around on DD and pyro forums, these will be going up in value. As I see it, if you got one for $199, with the last stock going for $250 in group buys like that AK Forum thread, you've already realized a 25% return on your investment. Beats the hell out of a CD at a bank. 

And the seller himself said he was able to get $350 for them sold individually.

I think these will go as high as $1000 in 1.5-2 years. Maybe more. Also, a big article on them is about to break in Small Arms Review, which will also push things into a frenzy. I think it'll get even crazier once it sinks in these can handle way more than just flares, like buckshot, or maybe even solid 4ga slugs.

IMO, if you're tight for cash, or just want to divert the money to something else. I'd say just hang on until late spring at least. I think being able to at least double your money should be possible.

[Balog]

Yeah AJ, that was and is the plan. Good to know about the SAR article, hopefully that'll clear the stock out. 

[RevDisk]

Damn, I was hoping the supply would dry up so I could flip mine for a profit. With the baby on the way I realized I don't have the time or funds to devote to yet another branch of the hobby.

I'll buy it off ya for a reasonable price...   

[lee n. field]

I'll buy it off ya for a reasonable price...    

Forty bucks.  "It's just a flare gun."

[birdman]

Okay, how do I get one of these?

[AJ Dual]

Okay, how do I get one of these?

I'd contact the seller in the link in the AK Forum group-buy.

Otherwise, there's three up on Gunbroker right now. http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=rv85

[Frank Castle]

I think it'll get even crazier once it sinks in these can handle way more than just flares, like buckshot, or maybe even solid 4ga slugs.

4ga buckshot , zombie gun !

[AJ Dual]

4ga buckshot , zombie gun !

You understand my thinking on the RV85 perfectly. And why I've submitted an ATF "Form 1" and $200 o get it made a Destructive Device.

If anyone's aware of the old 4-bore Rodda safari rifles, I think at minimum, the RV85 can handle anything they did, considering the RV85 is CZ Brno forged 1980's steel, and the Rodda was late 1800's spiral wound Damascus.

The barrel/chamber thicknesses seem to be roughly comparable.

The RV85 has no rifling to engrave or swage into, so bore obturation should be lower, hence lower pressure.

The round would be fired from a re-usable stainless steel casing, which would provide more support and pressure containment than brass. (OTOH, it may swell less, and provide less grip than brass, and hence more chamber face thrust...)

My one problem is how to prove it, without unacceptable risk to my RV85, or my own extremities, and no fancy tools like pizeo stress sensors etc.

[Nick1911]

You understand my thinking on the RV85 perfectly. And why I've submitted an ATF "Form 1" and $200 o get it made a Destructive Device.

If anyone's aware of the old 4-bore Rodda safari rifles, I think at minimum, the RV85 can handle anything they did, considering the RV85 is CZ Brno forged 1980's steel, and the Rodda was late 1800's spiral wound Damascus.

The barrel/chamber thicknesses seem to be roughly comparable.

The RV85 has no rifling to engrave or swage into, so bore obturation should be lower, hence lower pressure.

The round would be fired from a re-usable stainless steel casing, which would provide more support and pressure containment than brass. (OTOH, it may swell less, and provide less grip than brass, and hence more chamber face thrust...)

My one problem is how to prove it, without unacceptable risk to my RV85, or my own extremities, and no fancy tools like pizeo stress sensors etc.

at a minimum, I think a Rockwell hardness test would be a good idea.    That plus the thickness would give you a good idea of what it is capable of.  Metal spectrometer readings for composition would be icing on that cake.

[AJ Dual]

at a minimum, I think a Rockwell hardness test would be a good idea.    That plus the thickness would give you a good idea of what it is capable of.  Metal spectrometer readings for composition would be icing on that cake.

Hmm. Any suggestions as to how I'd go about getting that info? Is this something I could ask as a favor of someone who has the machines on hand, or is this something I'd need to send to a lab and pay for?

[HankB]

I wonder how long before the BATmen decide to reclassify these as something other than unregulated flare guns . . .

[Nick1911]

Hmm. Any suggestions as to how I'd go about getting that info? Is this something I could ask as a favor of someone who has the machines on hand, or is this something I'd need to send to a lab and pay for?

Most tool and die machine shops I've been to have a hardness tester.  One problem - I don't know if you can use one on tube/round material.  I've only ever used one on flatstock.  One could cut a coupon from the barrel to be tested - but this would be, of course, a destructive test.  You could call around and ask, if you're so inclined.  I don't think they would charge you much.  I'll poke around and see if I can find one at the college I go to.  I know there's a heat treat oven in the metal lab; there might be a hardness tester too.

Someone with a metal spectrometer will be harder to come by.  Off the top of my head, I know a metal recycling place around here that has one.  Not sure if they'd use it for a customers test piece, though.

The most accurate results will be from cutting test coupons from the barrel, and sending them out to a proper metallurgical lab for analysis.

[AJ Dual]

Most tool and die machine shops I've been to have a hardness tester.  One problem - I don't know if you can use one on tube/round material.  I've only ever used one on flatstock.  One could cut a coupon from the barrel to be tested - but this would be, of course, a destructive test.  You could call around and ask, if you're so inclined.  I don't think they would charge you much.  I'll poke around and see if I can find one at the college I go to.  I know there's a heat treat oven in the metal lab; there might be a hardness tester too.

Someone with a metal spectrometer will be harder to come by.  Off the top of my head, I know a metal recycling place around here that has one.  Not sure if they'd use it for a customers test piece, though.

The most accurate results will be from cutting test coupons from the barrel, and sending them out to a proper metallurgical lab for analysis.

LOL... I guess I'll have to try and talk some well-heeled member on Grog's launcher forum who has more than one RV85 into doing this then. 

I guess that when the time comes, I'll have to do this the old fashioned way, work up loads carefully, pull the trigger with a string, and look for signs of overpressure, like flattened primer strikes, difficult extraction, or stiff opening.

Although burning it with a laser spot in an inconspicuous place using one of those spectrometer guns would be do-able. I've actually seen those being used on TV shows about recycling/scrapyards, although they were usually testing aluminum or copper. I guess I didn't think of them being used on harder ferrous metals. I'll call around and ask. Maybe they'd do it if I was also buying scrap lead from them...

[Nick1911]

Well, hardness is probably more important then strictly composition in this application.  Indentation hardness conveniently tracks with tensile strength linearly. 

[AJ Dual]

Well, hardness is probably more important then strictly composition in this application.  Indentation hardness conveniently tracks with tensile strength linearly. 

Too bad it's not like geology, where you just scratch one rock on another, and the one that doesn't scratch is the hardest. Then you just line them all up in order.

Just have a thing that looks like a feeler gauge, and each blade is a different graduated hardness of steel. You just keep whipping out blades until the object in question scratches and the blade doesn't. Now you know. 

[Nick1911]

Too bad it's not like geology, where you just scratch one rock on another, and the one that doesn't scratch is the hardest. Then you just line them all up in order.

Just have a thing that looks like a feeler gauge, and each blade is a different graduated hardness of steel. You just keep whipping out blades until the object in question scratches and the blade doesn't. Now you know. 

there are.  www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=505-1898&PMPXNO=951422&PARTPG=INSRHI

Never used those, personally.

[freakazoid]

Just sent off the money order and the form is in the mail.

Is be interested in more info on it shooting 4ga. In order to actually put 4ga rounds through it do you actually have to pay the tax stamp to classify it as a DD? 

[AJ Dual]

Just sent off the money order and the form is in the mail.

Is be interested in more info on it shooting 4ga. In order to actually put 4ga rounds through it do you actually have to pay the tax stamp to classify it as a DD? 

Very very yes. $200 a Form 1 and get it engraved "Freakazoid, your city, your state".

Also, please note, there is NO hard data on making 4ga loads for this, or what kind of stress it can take. I've got some guesses that the RV85 can take a lot, but that's all they are, guesses. You can still have lots of fun making pyro, signal, and chalk-marker rounds. You can also shoot OC and CS rounds too without it being a DD since they're "defensive".

However, shot, solids, a wooden dowel, a superball, flechettes, "rubber rocket" etc. all of that requires a DD stamp.

They do make .22 caliber and .410 inserts for them. Although 12ga or anything over .50 also makes it a DD.

[Viking]

Could you get a sporting exemption for it I wonder? What with being about 4-bore and all? Carbine-lenght large game rifle?

[AJ Dual]

Could you get a sporting exemption for it I wonder? What with being about 4-bore and all? Carbine-lenght large game rifle?

Yes, with the ATF, I think you could.

I think any actual Rodda or similar English double 4-bore would be sporting exempt like the .600 Nitro etc. However, it would be a DD until you had the exemption.

Although it remains to be seen if you can actually drive a solid, or even a hefty load of shot with an RV85 fast enough to be a decent hunting round, and have both it, and you, stay in one piece. 

[freakazoid]

It looks beautiful and I would hate to have to scar it up by having to put my information on it just to be able to fire 4ga out of it but if that is what I must do then so be it. I've seen those .22 caliber shells before and they look pretty cool, wonder if they would tear up the barrel though? How would a 12ga make it a DD?

[AJ Dual]

It looks beautiful and I would hate to have to scar it up by having to put my information on it just to be able to fire 4ga out of it but if that is what I must do then so be it. I've seen those .22 caliber shells before and they look pretty cool, wonder if they would tear up the barrel though? How would a 12ga make it a DD?

20 or 12ga = bore size over .50, and "offensive purpose" without sporting exemption. It's the same for the non-DD 37mm M-203/M79 copies too.

You stick a 12ga adapter in them, and it had better be a registered DD.

There are the shorter 12ga flare adapters for 26.5, 37mm however, there's also those Aguilla mini-shells. Don't go there. 

I'm not sure the .22 "beehive" shells would be worth it in a 26.5, Although I guess you could still get 5 or 6 of them in there. With more than 3" of barrel in the beehive, I'm sure it would clear the bore without a strike as long as it was properly machined and they were all nicely parallel.  Dunno if anyone will ever make them.

As to scaring it up, to engrave it as a DD, Orion will engrave it professionally and neatly for $50 on one of the receiver sides, and they're pretty good at tucking it in pretty inconspicuous places for a little more.

[HankB]

20 or 12ga = bore size over .50, and "offensive purpose" without sporting exemption. It's the same for the non-DD 37mm M-203/M79 copies too.

You stick a 12ga adapter in them, and it had better be a registered DD.

There are short 12 ga adapters for these flare guns, and I see why the gun would arguably be a DD - after leaving the adapter the shot charge would be going down the flare gun's bore, and the actual bore diameter (26.5mm?) is over an inch, putting it well into DD territory.

But from a legal standpoint - what if a 12 ga adapter were made full length? If a 12 ga or 20 ga insert were made that was at least 18" long (OK, 18.25" for legal safety) why wouldn't that be a fully legal shotgun, especially if it ended up sticking out a little past the flare gun's muzzle? After all, they make full-length inserts for shotguns so skeet shooters can compete in multiple gage categories with a single gun, so why wouldn't a full-length insert be OK here?