Author Topic: Flare guns  (Read 47753 times)

AJ Dual

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2012, 08:57:48 AM »
There are short 12 ga adapters for these flare guns, and I see why the gun would arguably be a DD - after leaving the adapter the shot charge would be going down the flare gun's bore, and the actual bore diameter (26.5mm?) is over an inch, putting it well into DD territory.

But from a legal standpoint - what if a 12 ga adapter were made full length? If a 12 ga or 20 ga insert were made that was at least 18" long (OK, 18.25" for legal safety) why wouldn't that be a fully legal shotgun, especially if it ended up sticking out a little past the flare gun's muzzle? After all, they make full-length inserts for shotguns so skeet shooters can compete in multiple gage categories with a single gun, so why wouldn't a full-length insert be OK here?  ???

I think that might be just Title I, if it was 18" in length, and the OAL of whatever it was being fired from was 26" or more. Although that's a lot of work for "just because", when presumably most RV85 owners have a shotgun or two laying around already.
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dogmush

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2012, 08:59:58 AM »
There are short 12 ga adapters for these flare guns, and I see why the gun would arguably be a DD - after leaving the adapter the shot charge would be going down the flare gun's bore, and the actual bore diameter (26.5mm?) is over an inch, putting it well into DD territory.

But from a legal standpoint - what if a 12 ga adapter were made full length? If a 12 ga or 20 ga insert were made that was at least 18" long (OK, 18.25" for legal safety) why wouldn't that be a fully legal shotgun, especially if it ended up sticking out a little past the flare gun's muzzle? After all, they make full-length inserts for shotguns so skeet shooters can compete in multiple gage categories with a single gun, so why wouldn't a full-length insert be OK here?  ???

Nope.

Definition of DD:
Quote
For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Destructive Device” means:

A missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than 1/4 oz.

Any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may readily be converted to expel a projectile, by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore greater than one-half inch in diameter.

A combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a device into a destructive device and from which a destructive device can be readily assembled.

Exemptions:
Quote
A shotgun or shotgun shell which is determined by the Attorney General to be generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes.

a device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon,

a device which is designed or redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line-throwing, safety, or similar device,
surplus ordnance sold, loaded, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to law such as antique, obsolete bronze or iron cannon,

a device which the Attorney General determines is not likely to be used as a weapon.

An antique firearm, or

a rifle which the owner intended to use solely for sporting purposes.

So ALL 12 ga shotguns sold in the US fall under the first exemption.  They are DD's first that are exempted.  The 12ga adaptor, if not machined to only accept 12 ga flares, removes the launcher from the third exemption, but doesn't automatically get it the first.  You'd have an unregistered DD until the ATF gave you a sporting exemption.

Source of definitions:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-nfa-destructive-device.html

Harold Tuttle

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2012, 09:10:57 AM »
Because then you have an un papered 12 gauge shotgun
with a really heavy barrel

I guess you could home brew one of those.

Do you think I could take one out pheasant hunting?
The dog might shoot me though.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2012, 11:42:36 PM »
I just saw one of these at a gun show, for $300.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2012, 12:38:32 AM »
I just saw one of these at a gun show, for $300.

Yeah... I think they'll see a slow steady rise in value over the next few years. Despite being 26.5mm in caliber, they're not really "flare guns" at all. The rim diameter of the RV85 isn't the same. They were always intended to fire the wall-penetrating CS gas rockets that had much thicker rims on their initial booster casing.

Although there's no harm in shooting the 26.5mm flares with the thin rims, save for some potentially fiddly extraction, or you can put a cheap $.10 Dana O-ring from the plumbing dept. at your local big-box store to get the correct stand-off.

They're pretty amazing. Very thick, very solid, the proverbial brick explitive-house construction, nice bluing, a beautiful hard chrome bore, and close like a fine break action shotgun. The kind of thing that would cost $2000 easily if someone tried to make one commercially today.
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mtnbkr

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2012, 03:08:44 PM »
I saw one at our local show today as well for $300.  I have to say, it's a much nicer piece than I thought it would be.  Very smooth, very solid.  I have no need for one, but I can see the appeal.

Chris

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2012, 08:21:40 AM »
I saw one at our local show today as well for $300.  I have to say, it's a much nicer piece than I thought it would be.  Very smooth, very solid.  I have no need for one, but I can see the appeal.

Chris

Where at the show?
Was it in good shape?

birdman

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2012, 08:53:32 AM »
I just ordered two...I'll DD one, so looking forward to AJ's results!

AJ, can you PM me with any info on the ATF process? (what did you call it, what form, what engraving, etc)

AJ Dual

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2012, 12:49:39 PM »
I just ordered two...I'll DD one, so looking forward to AJ's results!

AJ, can you PM me with any info on the ATF process? (what did you call it, what form, what engraving, etc)

Okay,

What state are you in? That has bearing, since state laws on DD's override any fed.gov laws, or ATF regulations.

Also, are you in a NFA-friendly Chief Law Enforcement Officer's jurisdiction? Municipal Chief, DA, or County Sheriff? If not, you'll need to form a corporation or a trust to avoid the need for their sign-off on the forms. I recommend a trust, since it does not need upkeep or renewal like a corporation usually does, and it simplifies ownership of the NFA item should you get hit by a bus etc. Heirs can get tax-free NFA transfers since inheritance is not "commerce" under the ICC, the ATF/Treasury can't legally tax you on it. However, it's still similar paperwork as any other NFA transfer, and still takes six months+ to complete.

If you designate beneficiaries on a trust, they can automatically posses the NFA items without additional paperwork.

Namely, the NFA process starts with one of two forms the "Form 1" or the "Form 4". It's the same form for DD's, SBR's, SBS's, Silencers, or MG's.

Form 1 is used if you're "building" the NFA item.

Form 4 is used if you're "transferring" the NFA item.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/firearms/

When wondering what to fill out on the form, always defer to the markings on the item itself when possible. I'd put down "Firearms collector" for the "Reason".

Even if you don't actively construct, or machine out the NFA item, if it's a non-NFA item already in your possession, and you somehow "promote it" to NFA status, you're considered as "building" or "making" and need the Form 1. This would include things like adding a stock to a pistol to make a SBR, or getting the barrel of a rifle or shotgun chopped, either by yourself, or a gunsmith, or in our case, simply filing for our RV85's to be declared DD's so we can use "offensive" ammo in them.

If you buy or transfer ownership of an existing ready-made NFA item, either in a private sale or from a dealer, then you use the Form 4.

Assuming you go the trust route, what you would normally want is a "Revocable Living Trust". This gives you the most power and flexibility over it. You can pretty much make changes at will, and only need get them notarized. The trust as a legal entity normally just comes into existence by drafting it, getting it notarized, and assigning it an asset. Although some states may have registration or filing of trusts. My only experience is with WI, which does not.

Even if you have a friendly CLEO who will sign-off, some use a trust and avoid it anyway, on the idea of "never invite the man into your life more than necessary". And for how they simplify ownership and use by others more than just yourself. In my case, Milwaukee County, I have no "friendly" CLEO's, although I hear my particular suburban police chief, will sign... grudgingly, if you inform him you know about trusts and corps and are prepared to create one. Personally, I don't think that kind of relationship with my local police department is.... wise.  =D

Next county over is overwhelmingly Republican, and the pro gun, pro CCW, Sheriff there will sign, however, he still sends a deputy over to verify you have a safe, adequate locks, and to lecture you about having an alarm or security system if you don't have one.

Uh... thanks, but no thanks.  :P

People have been making trusts themselves on the cheap, using websites or software, but I recommend using a real lawyer, because state laws vary on the trust's requirements, and the ATF has become much more diligent in reviewing trusts to ensure they meet all legal criteria, or they'll reject them. There's a few folks who've used software trusts, didn't include the right things, and have had the ATF come back and reject an application.

Problem was, they already had several other NFA items in place registered to that trust, and now suddenly the ATF has declared it invalid. Oops.  :-X

So I think a flesh-and-blood lawyer is a good investment.  The trust should cost you somewhere between $200 and $400. I wouldn't pay more than that. I'd search local state level gun boards for recommendations in your area.

When naming your trust, INSIST on it being named something SHORT. Because the Trust name, and your city & state will need to be engraved on the receiver somewhere. "Birdman NFA Trust" is good. "The Birdman NFA Collecting Revocable Living Trust" is not. The ATF requires the EXACT name of the trust or .corp entity be engraved in full, they don't allow abbreviations like "RTL" for Revocable Living Trust.

You fill out the form 1, attach a check or money order for $200, a notarized copy of your trust, and Schedule A with the RV85 added as it's assigned asset, and send it in. Then you wait 6 months +, and play with non DD flares, pyro, chalk markers or a sub caliber adapter that's smaller than .50cal in the meantime.

When your form goes "pending" you disassemble the RV85 and send the receiver to Orion Arms  http://www.orion-arms.com/ for engraving with your trust name (or your name if you used CLEO sign-off), city, and state, which should cost $50. (If you're buying an NFA item from a dealer or manufacturer, you're using the Form 4, and all that stuff is already stamped or engraved on the item.)

When you get your tax-stamp back, you can start making buckshot, flechettes, "rubber rocket", superball, or wooden baton rounds. Any offensive projectile with more than 1/4oz of explosive compound in it is it's own register-able DD, costs $200 and takes the same paperwork. However a pyrotechnic or signalling round with more than 1/4oz of black powder in it is okay. Although if you take any 26.5mm flare, practice, or pyro and shoot it at someone with ill intent, it instantly became DD ammo, and your RV85 a DD if it wasn't already registered.

Also, do note that the RV85 rush is still new, and nobody knows exactly how much it can take. While I talk a good game about wanting to try buckshot, even 4ga solids out of mine, all I can promise is that I'm researching it, and trying to produce them. I have no idea that I can succeed. Spring/Summer/Fall when people can experiment hasn't hit yet since the Internet took notice of these, so not much data beyond pyro loads which replicate existing factory flares is all that's out there so far.

One other caveat, there's some pretty reliable word out there (from high-ups at www.nfatca.org) that CLEO sign-off is going away as part of the NFA process. Namely because it's a hold-over from before the existence of NICS, and the ATF is tired of all the trust paperwork they get from people avoiding cranky CLEO's. And that a passive CLEO notification/copy, much like when you apply for a Curio & Relics Collector FFL, is all that's needed.

Some are hoping it'll be within a few months. However, others think the process of regulation review, public comment, and hearings etc. will still take 1-2 years. I'm just throwing this out there for the sake of disclosure, in case you spend a few hundred bucks on a trust, and then you feel it was wasted just a few months later.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 01:00:52 PM by AJ Dual »
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birdman

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2012, 01:03:36 PM »
Thanks for the info, see your PM box :)

mtnbkr

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2012, 02:03:23 PM »
Where at the show?
Was it in good shape?

Towards the front, about in line with the deli counter.  It was in fantastic, practically new shape.

Chris

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2012, 02:13:39 PM »
Reports are that most all of them are in excellent shape, and the majority of them were like-new-in-box. My box was coming apart, but the rest was new, and only ever test fired.

(Not sure why they'd shoot a training rocket at a paper target of a rabbit..  :laugh: )

I guess the Czech security forces never had to shoot that many tear gas rockets through walls as they planned over the past 26 years.  [tinfoil]
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freakazoid

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2012, 02:59:46 PM »
I plan on going the trust route because it allows me to have my brother on it allowing him to hold onto any NFA items while I'm not at home, since I'm stationed in California and they are not friendly to any NFA ownership.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

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freakazoid

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2012, 09:16:57 PM »
Okay,

What state are you in? That has bearing, since state laws on DD's override any fed.gov laws, or ATF regulations.

Also, are you in a NFA-friendly Chief Law Enforcement Officer's jurisdiction? Municipal Chief, DA, or County Sheriff? If not, you'll need to form a corporation or a trust to avoid the need for their sign-off on the forms. I recommend a trust, since it does not need upkeep or renewal like a corporation usually does, and it simplifies ownership of the NFA item should you get hit by a bus etc. Heirs can get tax-free NFA transfers since inheritance is not "commerce" under the ICC, the ATF/Treasury can't legally tax you on it. However, it's still similar paperwork as any other NFA transfer, and still takes six months+ to complete.

If you designate beneficiaries on a trust, they can automatically posses the NFA items without additional paperwork.

Namely, the NFA process starts with one of two forms the "Form 1" or the "Form 4". It's the same form for DD's, SBR's, SBS's, Silencers, or MG's.

Form 1 is used if you're "building" the NFA item.

Form 4 is used if you're "transferring" the NFA item.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/firearms/

When wondering what to fill out on the form, always defer to the markings on the item itself when possible. I'd put down "Firearms collector" for the "Reason".

Even if you don't actively construct, or machine out the NFA item, if it's a non-NFA item already in your possession, and you somehow "promote it" to NFA status, you're considered as "building" or "making" and need the Form 1. This would include things like adding a stock to a pistol to make a SBR, or getting the barrel of a rifle or shotgun chopped, either by yourself, or a gunsmith, or in our case, simply filing for our RV85's to be declared DD's so we can use "offensive" ammo in them.

If you buy or transfer ownership of an existing ready-made NFA item, either in a private sale or from a dealer, then you use the Form 4.

Assuming you go the trust route, what you would normally want is a "Revocable Living Trust". This gives you the most power and flexibility over it. You can pretty much make changes at will, and only need get them notarized. The trust as a legal entity normally just comes into existence by drafting it, getting it notarized, and assigning it an asset. Although some states may have registration or filing of trusts. My only experience is with WI, which does not.

Even if you have a friendly CLEO who will sign-off, some use a trust and avoid it anyway, on the idea of "never invite the man into your life more than necessary". And for how they simplify ownership and use by others more than just yourself. In my case, Milwaukee County, I have no "friendly" CLEO's, although I hear my particular suburban police chief, will sign... grudgingly, if you inform him you know about trusts and corps and are prepared to create one. Personally, I don't think that kind of relationship with my local police department is.... wise.  =D

Next county over is overwhelmingly Republican, and the pro gun, pro CCW, Sheriff there will sign, however, he still sends a deputy over to verify you have a safe, adequate locks, and to lecture you about having an alarm or security system if you don't have one.

Uh... thanks, but no thanks.  :P

People have been making trusts themselves on the cheap, using websites or software, but I recommend using a real lawyer, because state laws vary on the trust's requirements, and the ATF has become much more diligent in reviewing trusts to ensure they meet all legal criteria, or they'll reject them. There's a few folks who've used software trusts, didn't include the right things, and have had the ATF come back and reject an application.

Problem was, they already had several other NFA items in place registered to that trust, and now suddenly the ATF has declared it invalid. Oops.  :-X

So I think a flesh-and-blood lawyer is a good investment.  The trust should cost you somewhere between $200 and $400. I wouldn't pay more than that. I'd search local state level gun boards for recommendations in your area.

When naming your trust, INSIST on it being named something SHORT. Because the Trust name, and your city & state will need to be engraved on the receiver somewhere. "Birdman NFA Trust" is good. "The Birdman NFA Collecting Revocable Living Trust" is not. The ATF requires the EXACT name of the trust or .corp entity be engraved in full, they don't allow abbreviations like "RTL" for Revocable Living Trust.

You fill out the form 1, attach a check or money order for $200, a notarized copy of your trust, and Schedule A with the RV85 added as it's assigned asset, and send it in. Then you wait 6 months +, and play with non DD flares, pyro, chalk markers or a sub caliber adapter that's smaller than .50cal in the meantime.

When your form goes "pending" you disassemble the RV85 and send the receiver to Orion Arms  http://www.orion-arms.com/ for engraving with your trust name (or your name if you used CLEO sign-off), city, and state, which should cost $50. (If you're buying an NFA item from a dealer or manufacturer, you're using the Form 4, and all that stuff is already stamped or engraved on the item.)

When you get your tax-stamp back, you can start making buckshot, flechettes, "rubber rocket", superball, or wooden baton rounds. Any offensive projectile with more than 1/4oz of explosive compound in it is it's own register-able DD, costs $200 and takes the same paperwork. However a pyrotechnic or signalling round with more than 1/4oz of black powder in it is okay. Although if you take any 26.5mm flare, practice, or pyro and shoot it at someone with ill intent, it instantly became DD ammo, and your RV85 a DD if it wasn't already registered.

Also, do note that the RV85 rush is still new, and nobody knows exactly how much it can take. While I talk a good game about wanting to try buckshot, even 4ga solids out of mine, all I can promise is that I'm researching it, and trying to produce them. I have no idea that I can succeed. Spring/Summer/Fall when people can experiment hasn't hit yet since the Internet took notice of these, so not much data beyond pyro loads which replicate existing factory flares is all that's out there so far.

One other caveat, there's some pretty reliable word out there (from high-ups at www.nfatca.org) that CLEO sign-off is going away as part of the NFA process. Namely because it's a hold-over from before the existence of NICS, and the ATF is tired of all the trust paperwork they get from people avoiding cranky CLEO's. And that a passive CLEO notification/copy, much like when you apply for a Curio & Relics Collector FFL, is all that's needed.

Some are hoping it'll be within a few months. However, others think the process of regulation review, public comment, and hearings etc. will still take 1-2 years. I'm just throwing this out there for the sake of disclosure, in case you spend a few hundred bucks on a trust, and then you feel it was wasted just a few months later.


I have been looking at reloadable 26.5mm stuff and found this site, reloadableshells.com/265MM_c6.htm I'm assuming that the projectile things are legal to shoot without having it registered ad a DD? It's sad that this even has to be a question.  :facepalm:
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

dogmush

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2012, 10:11:05 PM »
As long as it's not "Offensive".

Fill those little projectiles with chalk or talcum powder and you're GTG.  Lead shot in the wads, or CS in the projectiles?  Not so much.  So it really depends on what you put in them.

RevDisk

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2012, 10:14:19 PM »

Sigh. Wish I didn't have to put a downpayment on a house back in December.  Damnit.

Now I'm trying to source an RV85.  Shot an email to the guy in the link.  Fingers crossed.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2012, 10:23:42 PM »
http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=rv85

Three listings, only one has a bid so far.

As long as it's not "Offensive".

Fill those little projectiles with chalk or talcum powder and you're GTG.  Lead shot in the wads, or CS in the projectiles?  Not so much.  So it really depends on what you put in them.

Actually, you can do CS or OC in them and still not be a DD, they're classified as "defensive" believe it or not.  :angel:

And you can do any kind of smoke, signal, flare or pyro you want too without a DD.

Apparently, the chalk markers in 26.5 are somewhat disappointing, not enough payload to really see a good puff at a distance when it hits, unlike the 37's and 40's. Although some are working on designs to use a shotshell primer or something under the magic DD limit of 1/4oz explosive to give them better dispersal.



Although, if you shoot a flare,, chalk, or smoke at someone intentionally trying to hit them, you could be charged with possession of an unlicensed DD, and if that flare or pyrotechnic had more than 1/4 oz of black powder in it, perhaps they could get you for a DD round too. Same for the CS or OC, if you shoot it near them to make them disperse, not a DD. If you shoot it at them intending to bonk them with the capsule... DD.  :facepalm:

Crazy laws.  [tinfoil]
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 10:37:00 PM by AJ Dual »
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freakazoid

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2012, 10:33:50 PM »
Hopefully it works out for you.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

freakazoid

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2012, 11:00:08 PM »
Reposting a question here that I had posted there.

So, since I have sent off the payment I figure I should now look up info on ammo. Looked at the suggested links and was hopping I could get some info. For the http://www.reloadableshells.com/265MM_c6.htm link it appears there are two different options for casings. One uses a 9mm blank and the other one doesn't. It appears that with the 9mm you only put little bit into the 9mm casing and the I guess whatever you want to shoot out of it in the other end. And with the non 9mm one you put a lot more into the bore of the casing and simply sit what you want on top of the loose powder? Is one better than the other? Do you provide your own 9mm blanks or does that come with it? Do you have to have your own press for these things, 26.5mm casing or the 9mm blank? I notice for the 9mm blank one it requires a foam disk, would I make my own? Do you use the wads with the projectiles or are those used to turn it into a shotgun? And finally, what would be put inside the projectiles? Thanks to whoever can help me in answering all these noob questions!

And also! if/when I turn it into a DD for 4ga, where can I get shells? My search turns up nothing on google.
"so I ended up getting the above because I didn't want to make a whole production of sticking something between my knees and cranking. To me, the cranking on mine is pretty effortless, at least on the coarse setting. Maybe if someone has arthritis or something, it would be more difficult for them." - Ben

"I see a rager at least once a week." - brimic

41magsnub

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2012, 11:23:17 PM »
I just ordered one as well.  What the crap am I going to do with it?  dunno...

AJ Dual

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2012, 12:30:33 AM »
Reposting a question here that I had posted there.

So, since I have sent off the payment I figure I should now look up info on ammo. Looked at the suggested links and was hopping I could get some info. For the http://www.reloadableshells.com/265MM_c6.htm link it appears there are two different options for casings. One uses a 9mm blank and the other one doesn't. It appears that with the 9mm you only put little bit into the 9mm casing and the I guess whatever you want to shoot out of it in the other end. And with the non 9mm one you put a lot more into the bore of the casing and simply sit what you want on top of the loose powder? Is one better than the other? Do you provide your own 9mm blanks or does that come with it? Do you have to have your own press for these things, 26.5mm casing or the 9mm blank? I notice for the 9mm blank one it requires a foam disk, would I make my own? Do you use the wads with the projectiles or are those used to turn it into a shotgun? And finally, what would be put inside the projectiles? Thanks to whoever can help me in answering all these noob questions!

And also! if/when I turn it into a DD for 4ga, where can I get shells? My search turns up nothing on google.


There are no 4ga shells you can buy, at least that I'm aware of. If there are, Kynoch or somebody similar who's still into making safari stuff makes them, or components and a single box probably costs more than the RV85  :laugh:. And even if they did, it might not chamber, the 26.5mm being just .22mm shy of the 26.72mm that's nominally defined as "Four Bore" or 4ga.

And of course, the RV85 was never designed to be a 4ga. It's not even really a 26.5mm European flare launcher. It was made specifically for the Czech 26.5 CS gas rockets. The rim dimensions are thicker. This is fine for flares, but would possibly be a problem if you try for a full house load that moves it's projectile(s) at shotgun velocities.

I think there was some talk on Grog's board that one of the 26.5 reloadable stainless steel shell makers may come out with a run with thicker rims specifically for the RV85 owners. Right now, people are putting a Dana o-ring over the hull up against the rim to thicken it. Fortunately, there's no chamber per-se in the RV85, it's a straight cylinder all the way through to the rim so headspace is not at issue.

If you're like me, bound and determined to try and make some sort of "4ga loads", unless something special for the RV85 comes out, people will probably be starting with these: http://reloadableshells.com/265MM-Black-Powder-Reloadable-Casing-20110914.htm which is much more forgiving, and uses a 209 shotshell primer, and can take up to 23grains of powder. Once my RV85 is DD'd, I've got thoughts of maybe trying some ultra-slow surplus 20-30mm military cannon smokeless, and seeing what I can get in there to try a shotgun load.

However, without some major engineering acumen to figure out some limits, this is a "sandbag and string" experiment, or wait and hold tight until smarter big-bore reloaders give some more advice.

The 9mm blank models, you are correct, they use a 9mm casing, 2-5gr of smokeless, and there's a "burst disk" of thin sheet copper that gives way and releases a sudden blast into the otherwise empty casing space behind the payload.

To load these shells for more traditional pyro and smoke, you normally always use some sort of wad. (maybe with a hole in it for some fuse...) There's all sorts of pet designs, cardboard, foam, paper cards with waterglass (sodium silicate) poured and set over them depending on what you're doing.

Although if you use the more self-contained plastic projectiles, or cardboard cups then you wouldn't need a wad with the 9mm blank/burst disk, however, you'd still need one to confine the blackpowder shells because depending on how deep the payload sits, and the amount of powder, you can't have it sloshing around in too much free volume.

There's tons to learn about this, and honestly, I'm just parroting concepts I've only just been reading up on myself.

I REALLY can't stress enough how important it is to for anyone else who's getting one of these to get signed up for Grog's board on launchers, and reading up in the 26.5mm section. http://www.freewebs.com/grog/
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 12:39:37 AM by AJ Dual »
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freakazoid

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2012, 12:48:42 AM »
Thanks for the info. =D
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AJ Dual

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2012, 01:04:45 AM »
I want to shoot a round of trap with my 4ga. I really hope it's possible to work out a decent load that's at least close to supersonic with a big pile of #7 or #8 shot, and won't kill me or ruin the RV85.

At my club, I want to be "that guy".  =D
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Fly320s

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2012, 07:15:37 AM »
I just ordered one as well.  What the crap am I going to do with it?  dunno...

Ditto.

I fondly remember shooting practice rounds from a M-203 in Army Basic years ago. That had an influence in my decision. I'll be happy launching non-DD marking rounds for some time.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Flare guns
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2012, 10:17:19 AM »
A parachute round with a little digital movie camera, like the ones they put in model rockets would be cool.
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