Author Topic: More scientists express doubts on Darwin  (Read 15624 times)

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More scientists express doubts on Darwin
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2006, 11:08:29 AM »
I just don't understand how people can accept the fact that an omnipotent god can spawn out of nothing and create all this but they can't conceive of self-replecation occuring at a very very primitive level.

Perd Hapley

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More scientists express doubts on Darwin
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2006, 02:23:07 PM »
Mike, your post reminds me of a lot of blustery creationists who accuse every evolutionist of blind faith.  They are generalizing just as much as you are.  Such people would also deny any evidence for evolution.  In fact, we're all looking at the same evidence - it's all around us.  We're also surrounded by an establishment that teaches us that educated people reject any sort of special creation for evolution.  In the face of that, it seems likely that more people have blind faith in evolution than in creation.  In the same way, I would say that more Americans have blind faith in Christianity than in Paganism, Christianity being more socially acceptable.  


Quote from: Mike Irwin
If you categorically reject the theory of evolution, then all you are left with is reliance on blind faith.
How does that follow?  What do you mean by "categorically reject"?  If I don't accept an established theory, then you can assume that I must follow something else and follow it blindly?

Quote from: Mike Irwin
There's also another cruicial difference between Darwinian Theory and Christian creationism -- Darwinian Theory allows itself the possibility that it is wrong. Christian creationism demands absolute, dogmatic, blind faith.
Says who?  There are certainly Christians who practice this, but how does creationism intrinsically involve blind faith?  Neither theory states that its adherents must close their eyes and obey, but Darwinism seems unwilling to let itself be disproven.  When the fossil record revealed an embarrassing paucity of transitional forms, the theory was expanded to allow for punctuated equilibrium - that major changes occurred suddenly and left no evidence of their existence.  Or when textbook evidence for evolution is known to be a hoax, these examples continue to be included in textbooks.  I speak of items like the peppered moths, a couple of supposed pre-human hominids, Haeckel's embryology drawings, etc.  

Quote from: Mike Irwin
Then it is up to the proponents of creationism to derive such a test using observable, repeatable methodology. So far they have failed miserably in that task, only asking that people reject scientific methods for blind Biblical faith.  Blindly saying "it happened because 1) the Bible says it happened and 2) I believe the Bible, 3) goto 1" simply doesn't cut it.
Firstly, it wouldn't be one test, anymore than there is one test that proves evolution.  Mike, I thought you were too smart to go all dogmatic on a subject you don't know about.  You seem to think that modern creation science consists of non-scientists sitting in a circle and reading the Bible to one another, and refusing any hint of scientific thinking.  Actually, there are many people in that field who hold scientific degrees and conduct actual research.  If they have failed to make much headway in scientific circles, it may be due to certain obvious factors like lack of funding and prejudice. If I'm wrong about your ignorance, then please name the two most prominent organizations in creation science and tell me where they have told anyone to reject scientific methods.  Also let me know which tests for creationism have been miserable failures.

Quote from: Mike Irwin
That shutting off the quest of knowledge is, then a categorical denial of the existence of God.
How so?


Quote from: Mike Irwin
Once again, blind faith is not proof, and blind faith is not a Christian virtue.
Did I say it was?
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Phyphor

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« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2006, 03:01:41 PM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin
God farted, and there we were.

Divine creation?

Nope, more like divine excretion.

That's the only thing that explains why the human race is such a *expletive deleted*ed up entity.
Straight up.  No *expletive deleted*it.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2006, 07:45:49 PM »
Quote from: Jason M.
I just don't understand how people can accept the fact that an omnipotent god can spawn out of nothing and create all this but they can't conceive of self-replecation occuring at a very very primitive level.
Please elaborate.  Are you talking about God arising out of nothing, or about Him creating something where nothing had previously existed?  Are you talking about life forms reproducing asexually?


Quote from: Harold Tuttle
is it more possible that 40 days of rain deluged the entire planet,
or that after an intense monsoon event, a land bridge /dam
between the Mediterranean and the Black sea collapsed and inundated the area?
You're leaving out one huge factor and one very big factor.  Creationists are not claiming that the Flood just happened, but that it was directed by an omnipotent, omniscient god.  This makes it every bit as possible (probably more so, if one thing can be said to be "more possible" than another) as some random, freak flood big enough to inundate the whole region.  The second factor is that, as Desertdog pointed out, the seismic activity in "the great deep" is probably more important than the rainfall.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2006, 09:04:22 PM »
Quote from: Nightfall
Quote from: fistful
Actually, Nightfall, Miller-Urey did not produce life and even its claim to simulate the atmosphere of the Early Earth is debatable.  Producing a few amino acids is a long way from abiogenesis.
I didnt say it did. If youll observe the question I quoted, it only references the soup. Which I believe is what we see in said experiment, that organic soup. Not life.
Quite right, I was not paying enough attention to the question you quoted.  Sorry.  The former post has been edited with my apology.


Quote from: Nightfall
Which means a rainfall of 30 feet per hour. Can you imagine what that kind of rainfall would have done? For forty days?! Were talking erosion the likes of which you and I cant comprehend. Wave bye bye to the face of the planet, because its going away. All of this happened, what? 4500 years ago according to the Bible? So how about some evidence of this massiverainfall rate?

As for the fossil thing, maybe you can expand?
Nightfall, if you're interested in such speculation, try looking into some of the more serious creationist websites.  Sounds like you are unaware of any of the theorizing that has been done in that vein.  Interestingly, your boiling water idea is not far from creationist theories on the flood.  Try the following links.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=topics

I don't know what the rate of rainfall might have been, but we certainly believe the landscape was quite completely changed, meaning that the evidence you ask for is the entire crust of the Earth.  In fact, a change in landscape may have been as much cause as effect.  First of all, it is thought that the mountains of the antedeluvian world were much smaller than today, meaning that the amount of rainfall is much less than you propose.  An honest-to-goodness geophysicist, Dr. John Baumgardner,* has done a lot of work in this area, and hypothesizes that the ocean floor subducted very rapidly beneath the continental plate (many creationists accept the idea of Pangea) causing very large faults in the ocean floor.  These faults released large amounts of magma, which did indeed cause boiling water, the vapor thereof returning to earth in a forty-day rainfall.  Whether that is a good theory or not, I cannot evaluate without more scientific training.  He also has theorized that the asteroid blamed for dinosaur extinction may have actually been part of the cause for this "runaway subduction."  

For you funny guys out there, yes we all know that subduction leads to orogeny.  Smiley

More generally, though, creationists believe that the Flood is a much better explanation for the various strata in the Earth's crust and for formations like the Grand Canyon.  They point to the rapid changes in the topography around Mt. St. Helens, after its eruption, rapid formation of stalactites and stalagmites and coal deposits, etc.  Fossils are very interesting.  Before Darwin, it had been believed that fossils were the result of Noah's flood.  I also laughed when I first heard that idea, but creation scientists have resurrected it.  As fossils only form under certain conditions and the Flood is thought to meet those conditions and explains the vast numbers of fossils, sorted in the order in which various forms of life would be caught up in the flood.  From Wikipedia:

Quote
Fossilization is actually a rare occurrence because most components of formerly-living things tend to decompose relatively quickly following death. In order for an organism to be fossilized, the remains normally need to be covered by sediment as soon as possible. However there are exceptions to this, such as if an organism becomes frozen, desiccated, or comes to rest in an anoxic (oxygen-free) environment such as at the bottom of a lake. There are several different types of fossils and fossilization processes.
*Some will take this as an appeal to authority.  Don't bother.  I merely point out Baumgardner's credentials because some have the mistaken impression that all creationists are anti-scientific neanderthals dragging their Bibles around on the ground with their long arms, and meeting in their little churches to escape the "overwhelming evidence" that somehow makes evolution such an obvious conclusion for everyone else.
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Strings

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« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2006, 10:50:00 PM »
>Where do you get that idea?  In what way do you understand billions of years better than Moses or Noah might have?<

This one I have to address. The concept that the story of Genesis (God creates everything in six days) CAN be reconciled to a long period of history with one of the Psalms (don't ask for chapter and verse): "A thousand years are as a day to You, o Lord" (or words to that effect)...

 Oh my... I just gave an example that could be seen as promoting Christianity. Somebody check, and make sure fistful doesn't have a heart-attack... Wink

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2006, 03:51:54 AM »
Confused here, Hunter.  What do you mean?  I know about the day/age theory, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say about it.

I was trying to say that a billion years is an epoch of time so long, that I don't think we have any edge in understanding it.  Also, I am told the Hindu scriptures speak of such long periods of time, but I don't know when those passages were written.  And then Barbara's remark also assumes temporal chauvinism, which I don't agree with.


Quote from: zahc1
It's silly to get worked up over whether evolutionary theory is the 'truth'. The scientific community has embraced it and they find it useful. Just because it doesn't match your book of truth, is no reason to get worked up. If your religious belief can be threatened by science than it wasn't really a religious belief, but rather a type of immature and ineffective science. Don't worry, scientists will never prove that god doesn't exist.


If you actually believe in evolution, you are as dangerous as the bible thumpers IMO because you have invested faith in something that doesn't deserve it. It's doing exactly the same thing for you as religion does for them. No offense to any bible thumpers present.
How might I avoid being offended when you have told me my "Bible-thumping" is dangerous?  And how can evolution fail to threaten my beliefs when it attempts (rather successfully) to make them look false?  Science need not prove atheism, but if it accuses my God of dishonesty or ignorance, then it amounts to the same thing.
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auschip

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« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2006, 06:09:06 AM »
Quote from: fistful
Quote from: auschip
So, how many dinosaurs were on the ark?
Why ask me when you can read it in the Bible?  Two of every "kind" or species, unless they were considered clean, in which case, seven of each.  "But fistful," says you, "some dinosaurs were gi-normous."  True, but not very young dinosaurs.  Or young elephant or water buffalo for that matter.  

Click the link below for more thoughts on this subject.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2001/dinos_on_ark.asp
So, Noah carried baby dinosaurs on the ark.  Never mind the fact that the fossil record shows the fossils to be much older then several thousand years, or the fact that his carrying Dinosaurs on the ark requires me to believe that civilized people (at least as we generally understand them) cohabitated alongside dinosaurs and yet no mention of it was made in the bible.

ONE-SHOT-ONE

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« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2006, 07:41:33 AM »
i do not know how those that believe in something from nothing can look down their noses at those who believe in something from a creator.
even if they could convence me that first life was formed from lighting striking a pool of water where did you get the lighting or the water, they never carry their premiss back to the conclusion that you had to have something first.
untill one of these eggheads can tell me where the "frist" thing came from be it clay or an atom or a partical of space dust, they can not convence me that any of their other conclusions are more than a made up story!
i'll just stick with the God story till they can come up with something better. but i wont hold my breath while waiting.

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=type&ID=8
will give you some articals by guys who show how real sicence supports creation.

there is a place in glen rose texas where there is a preserved human foot print in a dino foot print. the did coexist togather.
http://www.creationevidence.org/cemframes.html

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« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2006, 07:50:33 AM »
There are other plausible explanations for the footprints and its been beaten to death.

I think the "Creation in 6 days 6,000 years ago" doesn't give God enough credit.

auschip

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« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2006, 09:06:54 AM »
Quote from: ONE-SHOT-ONE
there is a place in glen rose texas where there is a preserved human foot print in a dino foot print. the did coexist togather.
http://www.creationevidence.org/cemframes.html
http://paleo.cc/paluxy/mantrack.htm

Perd Hapley

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« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2006, 09:23:28 AM »
Thanks a lot, one-shot.  Sad

From a young-earth creationist website:  http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp

Paluxy tracks prove that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.
Some prominent creationist promoters of these tracks have long since withdrawn their support. Some of the allegedly human tracks may be artifacts of erosion of dinosaur tracks obscuring the claw marks. There is a need for properly documented research on the tracks before we would use them to argue the coexistence of humans and dinosaurs. However, there is much other evidence that dinosaurs and humans coexistedsee Q&A: Dinosaurs.


Quote from: Barbara
I think the "Creation in 6 days 6,000 years ago" doesn't give God enough credit.
How so?


Quote from: auschip
So, Noah carried baby dinosaurs on the ark.  Never mind the fact that the fossil record shows the fossils to be much older then several thousand years, or the fact that his carrying Dinosaurs on the ark requires me to believe that civilized people (at least as we generally understand them) cohabitated alongside dinosaurs and yet no mention of it was made in the bible.
Why should there be any mention of them?  But there well may be.  I see you are another person that could save a lot of time and at the very least be amused by the Answers in Genesis website.  They have numerous articles online that should tell you much of what you might like to know about us wacky creationists.  And if you missed it above, they have also agreed that the Paluxy tracks are poor evidence.  

Here's an article about dinosaurs in the bible.  http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2.asp

And here's one about why creationists question most dating methods:  http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dating.asp

No one should get the idea that I'm saying this website is the last word in science or in scriptural interpretation.  I post these links so the curious can see why their simplistic arguments against creationism are no better than some creationists' amateur prattling about the Paluxy tracks or Darwin's supposed deathbed recantation.
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Harold Tuttle

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« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2006, 11:23:16 AM »
one of my professors was an advocate of obsidian hydration as a benchmark for establishing when a tool was formed

the basic concept is that water penetrates the matrix of obsidian at a known rate
the distance the water has traveled into a hand cut face of a stone tool can date when the flint was knapped

just as we now know that the planet is not flat and the center of the universe,
we also know that the planet is vastly older than a mere 6000 years
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2006, 12:02:17 PM »
Harold, I'm curious if you've ever heard of uniformitarianism.  This term is used by creationists to describe the idea (developed by a geologist named Lyell) that whatever is happening now has happened at the same rate in the past.  It is the assumption behind scientific dating systems, and young-earthers reject this idea.  I wonder if this is a term one only hears from creationists, or if it used mainstream science.

Also, I wonder if you know the concept of "apparent age," that is, that a created world would necessarily look older than it truly is.  An example is that Adam and Eve were only one day old on the seventh day, but appeared to be fully-grown adults.  So the universe and its elements would look much older, if one begins with a big-bang/evolution framework.  However, I am not pretending to know how all of that works; just asking if you've ever heard of the idea.

You work in the science field?


Quote from: Third_Rail
What do they know?
They don't know what happened in the past.
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Iain

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« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2006, 12:21:48 PM »
fistful you obviously know a bit of stuff about this subject - just want to ask, how valid do you think any science is that has the 'answer' and looks for the explanation? Of course that works both ways, it can be applied to anything that becomes dogma.

Quote from: fistful
I post these links so the curious can see why their simplistic arguments against creationism are no better than some creationists' amateur prattling about the Paluxy tracks or Darwin's supposed deathbed recantation
As with the global warming thread I guess my issue with discussions like this (and global warming, and whether blacks are better at sport and 1,000 other pop science subjects) is that there is a lot of stuff that people 'know', so I sympathise with your comment.
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RevDisk

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« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2006, 02:27:58 PM »
Quote from: Sindawe
Quote
"We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged."
OK, absolutely nothing wrong with challenging accepted scientific convention if one thinks one has a better (as in fits the evidence at hand) theory.  Where is theirs?  Ahh...here it is
 
Quote
The Discovery Institute is the leading promoter of the theory of Intelligent Design,...
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA  translation "We can't figure this out, so the Gods musta done it!"
You owe me a keyboard, Sindawe!


See, I'm not a biologist, nor do I hold a degree in biology or science.  (A CS degree is closer to a divinity degree.)  Tis ok, neither do the folks that run the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture.   So I looked into "intelligent design".    From their own website:

Quote
Questions about Intelligent Design

1. What is the theory of intelligent design?

The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. For more information see Center Director Stephen Meyer's article "Not By Chance" from the National Post of Canada or his appearance on PBS's "Tavis Smiley Show (Windows Media).
So...  Natural selection does not occur according to the folks driving intelligent design.   We're off to a not good start.

Bit of googling turned up this gem.

http://www.revdisk.net/Wedge_Document.pdf

Hrm.   First paragraph is interesting.

Quote
The proposition that human beings are created in the image of God is one of the bedrock principles on which Western civilization was built. Its influence can be detected in most, if not all, of the West's greatest achievements, including representative democracy, human rights, free enterprise, and progress in the arts and sciences.
Somehow, I'm not buying the argument that the Discovery Institute is non-partisan and is solely interested in scientific truth.  




Quote
Quote
I don't see the problem with teaching all the THEORIES (Are they still called theories, or are they being passed off as the truth now?).
Theories based on verifiable evidence and repeatable results are fine to teach in a science class.  Intelligent design derived from Christian mythos has no more place in a science class than does creation stories from The Eddas, those of the Aborigines in Oz or the more recent vintage tracts of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Quote
Where did the atomic and subatomic components of the molecules that made up the mineral come from?
If you look deep enough, it gets REALLY WEIRD, what with particles appearing and dissapearing in less than the blink of an eye, things happening that just should not like quantum entanglement, things behaving like a wave until you look at them, and that damn box with a cat in it.
Yanno, gravity is a theory too.   Doesn't mean I'll be jumping off any buildings to attempt to prove it wrong.   We still have a lot to learn when it comes to science.   New things are being learned every day.  Everyone's still waiting for the grand unified theory.

I'm a fairly religious person myself.   It's fine to believe whatever you want.   But it always causes me to wonder when folks try to "prove" faith.   Faith by its very definition is believing without logical proof or material evidence.  Trying to "prove" things with circular argument is even stranger.
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Nightfall

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« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2006, 03:07:56 PM »
Quote from: fistful
Quite right, I was not paying enough attention to the question you quoted.  Sorry.  The former post has been edited with my apology.
No prob, thanks for the correction though. Smiley
Quote from: fistful
I don't know what the rate of rainfall might have been, but we certainly believe the landscape was quite completely changed, meaning that the evidence you ask for is the entire crust of the Earth.  In fact, a change in landscape may have been as much cause as effect.  First of all, it is thought that the mountains of the antedeluvian world were much smaller than today, meaning that the amount of rainfall is much less than you propose.  An honest-to-goodness geophysicist, Dr. John Baumgardner,* has done a lot of work in this area, and hypothesizes that the ocean floor subducted very rapidly beneath the continental plate (many creationists accept the idea of Pangea) causing very large faults in the ocean floor.
fistful, Im unable to find even speculation on how tall the highest antediluvian mountain might have been, so I cant really address rainfall rate variables here. As for the rest, well, its really rather stupid for me to start arguing one side of a geophysics question or another with the sheer level of ignorance I possess on the subject (as I suspect the case is for everyone else on this forum Wink). Ill stick to simple logic and minor math problems, thanks!
Quote from: fistful
...uniformitarianism.  This term is used by creationists to describe the idea (developed by a geologist named Lyell) that whatever is happening now has happened at the same rate in the past.  It is the assumption behind scientific dating systems, and young-earthers reject this idea.
The aforementioned obsidian dating method has been around for about 50 years now, right? 50 years seems like a decent sample if the earth was a max of 6k years old, given our technology. Have we observed changes in the consistency of this dating method from the time it was first used, until today?
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cosine

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« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2006, 04:19:30 PM »
Quote from: Live Free Or Die
Now, onto the related topic of metaphysical cosmology: does anyone else here stay up at night wondering how *anything* came to be in the first place?  I'm not talking about how a mineral turned into a marmot through evolution, but rather, where did the mineral come from?  Where did the atomic and subatomic components of the molecules that made up the mineral come from?  How did the universe get started...or better yet, was there ever a start in the first place, or did it just always exist?  We can't comrehend it always existing (well, I can't at any rate), but there aren't any compelling explanations for just how it got started either.  That stuff can keep you up at night -- believe me.
I'm glad I'm not the only with suffering with these difficult questions. Cheesy Trust me too, it really does keep you up at night. (There's been days I've stayed up until 2 in the morning scribbling out stuff I've thought about pertaining to this topic.)
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« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2006, 04:28:06 PM »
"carrying Dinosaurs on the ark requires me to believe that civilized people (at least as we generally understand them) cohabitated alongside dinosaurs and yet no mention of it was made in the bible."

Actually, there is reason to believe that dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible - IIRC in the Book of Job.  (then there's the legends of "dragons")

Just because I don't take the bible as an article of faith doesn't mean that some of the observations in the writings don't have some factual basis.  I have completely rejected the christian beliefs, but I still can't buy evolution.

It makes as much sense to me that space aliens seeded the planet with various life forms over a long period of time, though of course that theory begs the question of how the aliens came into existence themselves Wink
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2006, 04:44:28 PM »
Quote from: Nightfall
Quote from: fistful
...uniformitarianism.  This term is used by creationists to describe the idea (developed by a geologist named Lyell) that whatever is happening now has happened at the same rate in the past.  It is the assumption behind scientific dating systems, and young-earthers reject this idea.
The aforementioned obsidian dating method has been around for about 50 years now, right? 50 years seems like a decent sample if the earth was a max of 6k years old, given our technology. Have we observed changes in the consistency of this dating method from the time it was first used, until today?
You're still assuming uniformitarianism.  I.e.; if this obsidian process is consistent now, it has been consistent in the past.  The whole point is that whatever process we use to date something, it may not have occurred at the same rate a million alleged years ago.  It may not have changed it's rate at a consistent rate.  I'm not equipped to argue the point, just presenting the point of view of creation scientists as I understand it.  

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dating.asp
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Perd Hapley

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More scientists express doubts on Darwin
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2006, 05:12:51 PM »
Look at that quote again, RevDisk.  They're not saying that natural selection doesn't occur; just that it's not a sufficient mechanism to get us from tadpoles to tennis players.  I would assume that ID'ers will affirm, just as us wild-eyed creationists do, that life forms can adapt to suit their environment.  Maybe you should aim for more than superficial knowledge of Intelligent Design before running it down.


Quote from: crt360
"Johannes Kepler thought the craters on the moon were intelligently designed by moon dwellers. We now know that the craters were formed naturally. It's this fear of falsely attributing something to design only to have it overturned later that has prevented design from entering science proper." - William Dembski

Exactly.  It will stay that way, too, at least until we decide to give up and quit learning.  It wasn't that long ago that man thought the Earth was flat, that human flight was impossible, and that the moon was made of cheese.  If we exist long enough, we will figure out everything.  There will be no more mystery.  We will know how far off Darwin's theory really was and intelligent design will be left behind like a no longer needed crutch.
Hold on now.  Suppose with me for a moment that those craters were in fact built by moon-people.  Would it not be perfectly scientific to investigate these craters, determine they were built by intelligent creatures, and then study them further to find out how they were built, of what material, where the material came from, etc.?  Is it unscientific to investigate a fossil of, say, the head of some mythical king of Atlantis, and declare it to have been designed by a scam artist, rather than a naturally occuring artifact?  How does the design inference mean that we have given up on learning?  

Who believed the moon was made of cheese?
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Nightfall

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More scientists express doubts on Darwin
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2006, 06:16:31 PM »
Quote from: fistful
Quote from: Nightfall
Quote from: fistful
...uniformitarianism.  This term is used by creationists to describe the idea (developed by a geologist named Lyell) that whatever is happening now has happened at the same rate in the past.  It is the assumption behind scientific dating systems, and young-earthers reject this idea.
The aforementioned obsidian dating method has been around for about 50 years now, right? 50 years seems like a decent sample if the earth was a max of 6k years old, given our technology. Have we observed changes in the consistency of this dating method from the time it was first used, until today?
You're still assuming uniformitarianism.  I.e.; if this obsidian process is consistent now, it has been consistent in the past.  The whole point is that whatever process we use to date something, it may not have occurred at the same rate a million alleged years ago.  It may not have changed it's rate at a consistent rate.  I'm not equipped to argue the point, just presenting the point of view of creation scientists as I understand it.  

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dating.asp
I just fail to see any logical reason why the properties of obsidian would dramatically change, then remain steadfastly consistent for 50 years. The change in obsidians properties would have to be dramatic, otherwise wed be able to observe and measure the change from 50 years ago until now (one of the things about creationism is that if the universe is only 6,000 years old, the time we've observed, recorded, and analyzed represents a significantly larger sample to study). Otherwise, wouldnt it take a substantial change in the environment (earth) of a stable material to make it behave so differently? If this dramatic change had occurred, wouldnt we be able to see evidence of these environmental conditions elsewhere?

Im certainly no more equipped than you to really argue the point beyond my simple reasoning, but even with said simple reasoning, it just doesnt seem to add up.
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Perd Hapley

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More scientists express doubts on Darwin
« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2006, 06:38:21 PM »
Nightfall, here's another article that explains their thinking on this.  

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v14/i2/radioactive.asp



Question about the Big Bang.  By the time the Earth had formed, would light from the sun or stars already be reaching it?
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Iain

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More scientists express doubts on Darwin
« Reply #73 on: June 26, 2006, 11:39:12 PM »
Just going to repeat myself here.

Quote from: Iain
fistful you obviously know a bit of stuff about this subject - just want to ask, how valid do you think any science is that has the 'answer' and looks for the explanation? Of course that works both ways, it can be applied to anything that becomes dogma.
If you believe the earth is 6-7,000 years old you've got to do a lot of explaining away of some inconvenient science, some of that science is of course slightly questionable and plenty of scientists have issues with carbon-14 dating and the rest, but the argument from this link appears to be summed up by the following:

The only foolproof method for determining the age of something is based on eyewitness reports and a written record. We have both in the Bible. And that is why creationists use the historical evidence in the Bible to constrain their interpretations of the geological evidence.
To refer to obsidian dating method and what as been referred to as 'uniformitarianism' - to accept that all natural processes happened in the past is partly a philosophical position. But we can measure the half-life of carbon-14. Now to make the claim that this has not been a constant requires a little proof a few experiments that raise a few eyebrows, otherwise it just smacks of having the 'answer' and fitting the science into it.

I'm not saying that scientific questions weren't raised by the article, they were. But the article ultimately comes down to a statement of faith. I have no problem with faith, but ultimately he is saying that he accepts the Bible as more solid and concrete than the last century of science. That's fine, but as I said, I'm not convinced that knowing the answer and fitting the science to the answer is valid.
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Perd Hapley

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More scientists express doubts on Darwin
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2006, 03:35:14 AM »
Quote from: Harold Tuttle
Evolution by natural selection, the central concept of the life's work of Charles Darwin, is a theory. It's a theory about the origin of adaptation, complexity, and diversity among Earth's living creatures. If you are skeptical by nature, unfamiliar with the terminology of science, and unaware of the overwhelming evidence, you might even be tempted to say that it's "just" a theory. In the same sense, relativity as described by Albert Einstein is "just" a theory. The notion that Earth orbits around the sun rather than vice versa, offered by Copernicus in 1543, is a theory. Continental drift is a theory. The existence, structure, and dynamics of atoms? Atomic theory. Even electricity is a theoretical construct, involving electrons, which are tiny units of charged mass that no one has ever seen. Each of these theories is an explanation that has been confirmed to such a degree, by observation and experiment, that knowledgeable experts accept it as fact. That's what scientists mean when they talk about a theory: not a dreamy and unreliable speculation, but an explanatory statement that fits the evidence.

The rest of us generally agree. We plug our televisions into little wall sockets, measure a year by the length of Earth's orbit, and in many other ways live our lives based on the trusted reality of those theories.
Is it not true that in all of these cases, there is a difference between observing what is going on now and applying it to everyday life, versus applying it to things that happenned in the past?  I wonder if the same objections made about dating methods apply to these things as well.  I agree with most scientific theories and use them to watch TV, etc.  In the same way, I trust measurements of the chemical elements in a rock, but not necessarily the notion that the age can be computed from these measurements.  


Quote
In order to interpret these chemical analyses, geochronologists must make three vital assumptions, otherwise the radioactive clock cannot be made to read the age of the rocks. These assumptions are:

1.  the initial conditions are known;
2.  the system has been closed; and
3.  the radioactive decay rate has remained constant.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v14/i2/radioactive.asp
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