Cops and ticketing quotas

[drewtam]

I'm not either but why do vehicle accidents go up when speed limits are increased? You can look at stats all over the various governmental agencies websites that show that.

That claim, "more speed = more accidents" is not universally accepted.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/06/texas_85_mile_per_hour_speed_limit_do_higher_speed_limits_cause_more_accidents_.html
http://onlinemanuals.txdot.gov/txdotmanuals/szn/determining_the_85th_percentile_speed.htm


There is evidence that setting the speed limit below the 85th percentile can also cause accidents.

We can infer that speed limits are set for revenue and not speed, because we can see what was done with red light cameras which has similar incentive structures. Some cities intentionally shortened yellow lights to make more red light camera revenue, even though there is strong evidence that short yellow times increase accident incidence. Even now, many yellow lights are shorter than the recommended minimums (formula based on road type and 85th percentile speeds).

One of the things that confuses the data, is that roads and cars have been getting steadily better; so that lowering the speed limit in the 70s saw dropping accidents, and raising the speed limit in the 90s and 00s saw dropping accidents.

here's an entertaining one...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BKdbxX1pDw

[charby]

Most of those homes have such large driveways that they are practically roads unto themselves, and the homeowner or visitor to that home can enter nose-first into the driveway, as well as leave nose-first.  This gives best visibility and best acceleration to merge to responsible traveling speed.

Not always, think of part of northern MN, WI or the UP where people built their house close to the hwy because the lake lots are so small between the lake and road. Or mountainous areas where there isn't much land between the highway and the rock faces.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Not always, think of part of northern MN, WI or the UP where people built their house close to the hwy because the lake lots are so small between the lake and road. Or mountainous areas where there isn't much land between the highway and the rock faces.

i can show you hundreds near here

[charby]

We can infer that speed limits are set for revenue and not speed, because we can see what was done with red light cameras which has similar incentive structures. Some cities intentionally shortened yellow lights to make more red light camera revenue, even though there is strong evidence that short yellow times increase accident incidence. Even now, many yellow lights are shorter than the recommended minimums (formula based on road type and 85th percentile speeds).

I don't disagree about speed/red light cameras.

[AZRedhawk44]

We can infer that speed limits are set for revenue and not speed, because we can see what was done with red light cameras which has similar incentive structures. Some cities intentionally shortened yellow lights to make more red light camera revenue, even though there is strong evidence that short yellow times increase accident incidence. Even now, many yellow lights are shorter than the recommended minimums (formula based on road type and 85th percentile speeds).

I'm thinking of starting a ballot referendum here in AZ that mandates that all red light cameras must be retrofitted with those LED digital timers for the cross-walk signal, otherwise the camera must be removed.

That gives you a visual queue when the green is about to turn yellow, and you can adjust your speed up or down a block BEFORE you get to the damn light.

There's no way redflex will like that, and no way that lawmakers at any level will like that.  So it's obviously brilliant and perfect.

[RoadKingLarry]

Drive the speed limit and obey all traffic laws, no reason to get a ticket then. Argue otherwise, you are a law breaking criminal. 
 

Even that doesn't always work.
The last ticket I got was over an inspection sticker. I had recenty returned to OK from VA after geting out of the Navy. I was still sportinga VA inspection sticker. Which was perfectly legal as OK and VA had reciprocity on vehicle inspections at the time. Something I had learned several years earlier.
Small town cop gave me a NO INSPECTION ticket.  It was only a $55 fine, no points.
I had to make two traffic courts to get it thrown out.
First time I presented a copy of the relevant parts of the OK regs on inspections with a list of states OK had reciprocity with. Judge looked at the list and said he didn't see OK on the list.
Also told me, and I quote. "you're in Oklahoma now boy, you need to obey Oklahoma law".
Entered a not guily plea and left.
I had made numerous phone calls to the city prosecutors office tring to get it resolved prior to the court dates since it was night court and at the time I was working a night shift and making the court was a PITA. Never got an answer or call back.
When I finally got in back front of the judge I again stated my case and presented a full official copy of the OK inspection regs. Judge still wasn't buying it.
All night I had watched the show and the judge had a scripted routine, he'd pronounce guilty and levy fine and court costs, or a seperate script and dismiss fines and levy court costs.
After I had stated my case the judge started with his guilty routine and the city prosecutor cut him off cold, judge didn't like it.
Prosecutor made the case that the VA inspection was acceptable but that the officer had been confused by the way the dates on the sticker were presented. I said it sure seemed easy to read to me and that the sticker was still on the van if they wanted to see it. The judge then started on his dismiss the fine and just pay court cost script and the prosecutor cut him off again. Judge still didn't like that. The prosecutorsaid the city would waive court costs and somethn about the officer wasn't familiar with the inspection laws.
That's when I almost got in real trouble.

[Gewehr98]

Having driveways intersect state highways here is the rule, rather than the exception. 

Having driveways intersect state highways here on hill crests or blind curves is also the rule.

Then there are the tractors with manure spreaders, and Amish buggies all sharing the highway with you...

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Having driveways intersect state highways here is the rule, rather than the exception. 

Having driveways intersect state highways here on hill crests or blind curves is also the rule.

Then there are the tractors with manure spreaders, and Amish buggies all sharing the highway with you...

statist!   

[Hawkmoon]

Same one. Still waiting on a court date

Reminds me of when I was attending school in Philadelphia many years ago.

My brother had a car he was trying to sell. Had a potential buyer from New Jersey who was interested but wanted to see the car. We worked out a plan whereby I took the car down to Philly, and the next weekend I headed across the Walt Whitman Bridge and across New Jersey to show the car, then back to home to return the car to my brother.

It was raining heavily in NJ. The route was a 2-lane state highway. I was behind a truck that was going well under the speed limit, and throwing up huge rooster tails of water. Finally got a clear straight stretch where I could pass, and did so. I noticed a car parked on the opposite shoulder as I passed, but I didn't pay any attention.

MANY miles farther down the road, I spotted an emergency vehicle of some kind coming up behind me, so I pulled over to let it go by. I was mildly astonished when it pulled up behind me. It was a county mountie, and he claimed I must have been "flying" because it took him so long to catch up to me. In fact, I was driving the speed limit and it took him so long because he had to turn around, and then pass numerous vars and trucks in a heavy rain with near zero visibility. But ... don't argue it on the side of the road.

He gave me a ticket, with a court date and a fine, and an address where I could just send in the payment. I wasn't about the get railroaded by a NJ cop, so I resolved to go to court. There was a note on the bottom of the ticket advising that, if you elected to contest the ticket, call [this number]. So I called.

A woman answered. I told her I had a ticket, that I planned to appear in court, and that I was calling because the note on the ticket said to call [this number]. There was a long silence, followed by, "Why are you calling?" I repeated that I was calling because a note on the ticket instructed me to call if I planned to appear and plead not guilty.

She: "You're going to plead not guilty?"

Me: "Yes. I'm not guilty, so I'm going to plead not guilty."

She: "You're going to plead ... NOT guilty?"

Me: "Yes. That's why I called."

She finally got it, and then stammered out, "Oh. Well then, you can't come on the day on your ticket. That's only for non-contested cases. If you're really going to plead NOT guilty [she made it sound like I was the only person who had ever pled not guilty in the entire history of NJ traffic citations] you have to go to a different courthouse on a different day." So I got the information and wrote it on my calendar.

On the appointed day, I schlepped across New Jersey to the courthouse and sat through several hours of people paying fines for speeding tickets. The judge finally called my case. I stood up and announced that I was present.

The judge then asked if the complaining officer was present in court. The prosecutor looked around, cleared his throat several times, ran his finger around the inside of his shirt collar, and finally responded, 'No, your Honor, he is not in court today."

"Case dismissed," said the judge.

The whole mess was clearly a scam. The cop chased me because I had out-of-state tags and I'm certain he was sure I wouldn't bother to come back to contest the ticket.

Screw him.

[never_retreat]

Speaking of scams, I mailed in a guilty plea to a seat belt ticket in NY, Before I do I check the state website for the cost 50$.
Ok no big deal, after all I bs'ed the cop out of a speeding ticket. So the fine comes in the mail 25$ and 85$ in court fees, talk about extortion.

About the driveway on roads.
Here in NJ it is illegal to back out of a driveway on any road. I highly doubt anybody has been ticketed for it though.
You must back in if you don't have a place to turn around on the property.

Another NJ ism. We have a law about multi lane roads, It states keep right except to pass. They recently wanted to up the fine. It came out that less then 100 tickets were given out for it in a year. So its one of those things that if the cops won't pull people over for it why raise the fine. It always is a controversy when it is discussed, people cry that I'm doing the speed limit yada yada yada. There is no exception in the law about what speed you are doing.

[Balog]

Actually most of the polls now show that a slight majority (means over 50%) are fine with gay marriage. source: http://www.pollingreport.com/civil.htm

It's pretty well established that folks either don't respond or respond falsely to those polls. Given that any disagreement with redefining marriage is automatically defined as only a result of being an evil awful hateful person who wants to discriminate against a protected group, and that there have been a number of attempts to harrass folks for signing onto defense of marriage laws petitions that's not surprising.

Regardless, you're the one who wants .gov to use force to make folks comply with "social norms" and says it oh so selfish not to, so...

How about this, you decide to dump vehicle antifreeze into the storm drain because you didn't want to pay for the disposal at a resource recovery center? Is that libertarian?

1. I'm not a doctrinaire libertarian so I don't care if it's " libertarian" or not. You seem to be using that as some sort of insult and implying that if I ascribe to that philosophy I must have some sort of group think hive mind that compels me to agree with you if you can prove your view is the "libertarian" one. It's bizarre and insulting, feel free to stop.

2. That example has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. I'm saying "I should be able to own a machine gun" and you're saying "Oh so you want to be able to fire your machine gun indiscriminately into the air huh?" As drewtam noted, having speed limits set too low (and almost all interstate and major freeway limits are) can actually cause more accidents. Your presumption that going over the posted limit is reckless endangerment solely because the .gov says so and they're real smart and only have out best interests at heart so anyone not doing as they're told is just selfish and awful is silly. Not as silly as "we need men with guns to enforce social norms (as long as I agree with them)" but still pretty silly.

[Boomhauer]

That claim, "more speed = more accidents" is not universally accepted.

Indeed. There is a lot of variance on road type/location. 15-20mph more speed on an interstate is not bad while 15-20mph over the normal limit is probably a not a good idea in a crowded town or suburb area. An interstate or other limited access highway where all traffic is flowing the same way, no intersections, entrances/exits near the speed of traffic, etc is actually IMHO the safer type of road vs. a standard road with intersections, people coming to a complete stop to turn, pedestrians/children/bicyclists/drunks on mopeds causing traffic hazards, and so forth.

Yes, if you are exceeding the limit by 1mph you are breaking the law. I fully acknowledge that and accept the consequences if I am ticketed for doing so (and yes I speed like a mofo). Is it a terrible crime against humanity or going against "social norms" to go 5-10mph over the limit on most roads and 10-20mph over on the interstate? No and no. Most everybody does it. That doesn't really cause a problem. Now if you were going 40-50mph over the limit, that'd be different story...

The "increased deaths from more speed" is simply that if you wreck at a higher speed your body is subjected to higher forces during the crash. Duh, it's more likely to kill unless you are wearing an extreme amount of safety gear and are in a caged race car like a NASCAR driver. Will raising the limits somewhat on roads that can handle it cause an appreciable increase in wrecks and subsequent deaths from the increased speed alone? I strongly doubt it, especially when you are talking going from 70-75 to 85 or so.

Much of your speeding tickets are revenue generating. Sometimes it's about sticking it to someone who's being a menace to society with their driving, but much of the time revenue generating, and a sure tell of that is when they start hitting people going 1mph or so over. And, like I said, I'll take the rap if I get caught while doing it, even if I am unhappy about it.

At least down here it's not nearly as bad as it was in the past. Back then EVERY damn town was a real speedtrap.



Jocassee/AZR, is that Hwy 11 ya'll got stopped on?

[brimic]

In a lot of small towns that fund through tickets/asset forfeiture, "He ain't from 'round here" is all the reason that's needed. In Medina (super rich neighborhood in Bellevue where Bill Gates lives) driving while poor is a valid reason. In a lot of affluent white communities driving while black is a reason. Etc etc

Bingo! That is the model my local police department works off of.

A relative of mine who is a cop told me that cops have a saying- "trash drive trash" or something like that. If you drive a car that is rusty or dented, the police are already under the assumption that you are a nogoodnik.

[brimic]

Then there are the tractors with manure spreaders, and Amish buggies all sharing the highway with you...

Like this mfer who nearly caused a pileup. He was cruising along at 15mph on a limited access freeway (which has a 45mph minimum speed limit) people in the right lane going 70 came over the crest of the hill and had to slam on the brakes, swerve onto the shoulder, etc. Oh to make it worse, there is a county road 1/4 mile away that runs parallel with the freeway for 10 miles in both directions. 

[griz]

On a lot of interstates if you drive the speed limit you will be passed by 90 percent of the cars on the road.  Doesn't that imply that the limit is too low when the "societal norm" is to break the law?

[Jocassee]

Jocassee/AZR, is that Hwy 11 ya'll got stopped on?

It was, just east of 178 in Pickens.

[brimic]

On a lot of interstates if you drive the speed limit you will be passed by 90 percent of the cars on the road.  Doesn't that imply that the limit is too low when the "societal norm" is to break the law?

I think there is a lot of 'slot machine' psychology going on.

On a particularly busy freeway section, Milwaukee county lowered the speed limit from 65 to 55. In the outer burbs people typically drive 65-80 mph with little impediment except in the rare ramp where the police set up a police trap.

In the 55 mph zone in Milwaukee county, people continue to drive 65-80 mph, with a sheriff's deputy out there every day pulling over one car at a time at will- raking in the cash.

As long as drivers get a 'win' by driving unimpeded, they will continue to do so, if they get a 'loss' by being ticketed, they will get on the same road the next day and drive 15-25 mph over because the odds of another 'loss' are small.

I have a friend how got ticketed on his motorcycle for 15 over in that section. He pleaded that if he didn't travel with traffic, it would only be a matter of time before he would be killed regardless of the law. As an experiment, I've tried to ride my motorcycle through that area at or near the spped limit, I had no fewer than 3 cars ride up withing a foot or so of my rear wheel, or pass me and cut me off really close- and that was in one trip.

[roo_ster]

Bingo! That is the model my local police department works off of.

A relative of mine who is a cop told me that cops have a saying- "trash drive trash" or something like that. If you drive a car that is rusty or dented, the police are already under the assumption that you are a nogoodnik.

My wife drove up my FIL/BIL's old beater pickup for several hours yesterday.  Got pulled over twice.  The day before it had gotten an inspection sticker and my wife was not going to drive that sucker over the posted limit.  When my wife asked the LEO why he had pulled her over, she got a lot of, "Mwah mwah mwah mwah mwah" and no straight answer.  No ticket or warning either time, just bullshoi.

[charby]

1. I'm not a doctrinaire libertarian so I don't care if it's " libertarian" or not. You seem to be using that as some sort of insult and implying that if I ascribe to that philosophy I must have some sort of group think hive mind that compels me to agree with you if you can prove your view is the "libertarian" one. It's bizarre and insulting, feel free to stop.

2. That example has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. I'm saying "I should be able to own a machine gun" and you're saying "Oh so you want to be able to fire your machine gun indiscriminately into the air huh?" As drewtam noted, having speed limits set too low (and almost all interstate and major freeway limits are) can actually cause more accidents. Your presumption that going over the posted limit is reckless endangerment solely because the .gov says so and they're real smart and only have out best interests at heart so anyone not doing as they're told is just selfish and awful is silly. Not as silly as "we need men with guns to enforce social norms (as long as I agree with them)" but still pretty silly.

And gay marriage has a correlation with speeding?

I'm arguing with you because I disagree with you, not trying to insult you. I see the world differently than you and others, I actually want to be part of a community, sort of how mind think was pre civil war where much of the populace acted together as a community to grow and sometimes the needs of the community outweighed the needs of the individual. This is not socialism or communism. Remember other people share the road with you and I.

[charby]

...and to the folks wanting higher speeds limits, do you really want heavy trucks going 80-95mph? What about the person with the 30 year old car that drops parts on every bump? The 16 year old who just got their license. Little old lady who can barely see of the dash who drives the barely above the post min speed? Are you wanting to raise the min speed limits also if you increase the speed limits, 10-15-20 mph faster than the current ones? Are you going to want to mandate that all vehicles have higher speed rated tires? Mandate more safety for new vehicles?

[RevDisk]

Drive the speed limit and obey all traffic laws, no reason to get a ticket then. Argue otherwise, you are a law breaking criminal. 

I kindly call BS. My first and only speeding ticket was a trap. Signs were 55, then immediately went to 35 with no advanced notice because it was at the bottom of a slight hill. I was safely decreasing my speed when I got pulled over within 50 feet of the sign. Short of slamming on the breaks in a dangerous manner, there was no safe way to drop my speed by 20mph in the distance between being able to see the sign and the sign itself. I went to the court to protest. Which was a new building, very nice. Which also had the police station. The locals laughed when I said I was going to protest the ticket, and it was understandable once I saw the arrangement.

Why would a judge NOT want visitors to contribute to the shiney nice new civic building. That speed trap was potentially dangerous if someone DID slam on the brakes.


Red light cameras have rigging that is even MORE dangerous. There needs to be minimum time for yellow for the intersection to clear, and a minimum pause between one light turning red before the other light turns green. Shaving seconds off either is flat out dangerous. It'll be fixed when someone sues for enough money, and likely not before then.

[drewtam]

...and to the folks wanting higher speeds limits, do you really want heavy trucks going 80-95mph? What about the person with the 30 year old car that drops parts on every bump? The 16 year old who just got their license. Little old lady who can barely see of the dash who drives the barely above the post min speed? Are you wanting to raise the min speed limits also if you increase the speed limits, 10-15-20 mph faster than the current ones? Are you going to want to mandate that all vehicles have higher speed rated tires? Mandate more safety for new vehicles?

Yes, I do want all traffic on the open interstate to be in a tight 75-80mph range. I find speed differentials and left lane squatters among the traffic population to be a lot more dangerous and disruptive, than straight up speed.

Tires are already rated to ~110/130. That is why most passenger vehicles have speed governors at around 105~110. Most sportscars & sport bikes do not have these governors, since they typically have tires rated for around 30-40mph faster than what the engine power can achieve against the wind.

[brimic]

...and to the folks wanting higher speeds limits, do you really want heavy trucks going 80-95mph? What about the person with the 30 year old car that drops parts on every bump? The 16 year old who just got their license. Little old lady who can barely see of the dash who drives the barely above the post min speed? Are you wanting to raise the min speed limits also if you increase the speed limits, 10-15-20 mph faster than the current ones? Are you going to want to mandate that all vehicles have higher speed rated tires? Mandate more safety for new vehicles?

Freeways are already set up for much higher speeds, most of the problems that cause accidents are software, not hardware. If the police really were intent on maing roads safer, they would pull over people driving like aholes instead of going 10 over in the left lane, though I don't think they will meet their quotas by pulling over people and warning them to stop being aholes, though ticketing for inattentive or wreckless driving may be a start.

On rural highways and city streets, I'm in complete agreement with you about speed limits for all of the reasons that have already been mentioned.

[charby]

Like this mfer who nearly caused a pileup. He was cruising along at 15mph on a limited access freeway (which has a 45mph minimum speed limit) people in the right lane going 70 came over the crest of the hill and had to slam on the brakes, swerve onto the shoulder, etc. Oh to make it worse, there is a county road 1/4 mile away that runs parallel with the freeway for 10 miles in both directions. 

I agree unless the embargo* on min speed was lifted for summer haying equipment, that person should have taken an alternate route.

*Many agricultural states will lift weigh embargos during peak harvest season on roads, bridge weight limits are still enforced though.

[AZRedhawk44]

I kindly call BS. My first and only speeding ticket was a trap. Signs were 55, then immediately went to 35 with no advanced notice because it was at the bottom of a slight hill. I was safely decreasing my speed when I got pulled over within 50 feet of the sign. Short of slamming on the breaks in a dangerous manner, there was no safe way to drop my speed by 20mph in the distance between being able to see the sign and the sign itself. I went to the court to protest. Which was a new building, very nice. Which also had the police station. The locals laughed when I said I was going to protest the ticket, and it was understandable once I saw the arrangement.

This is illegal in AZ.

No more than 10mph change is allowed from one speed limit zone to another, unless a warning sign (reduced speed zone ahead) is in place at least x distance (I forget the exact distance, but it's something like a quarter mile) prior to the speed limit change.  The law states it is a valid defense to a ticket if the warning sign is not present and the change in speed limits is greater than 10mph.