Author Topic: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue  (Read 6879 times)

xavier fremboe

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2008, 04:21:11 AM »
Yeah, what's the risk? That you'll lose all the millions and have to work for an hourly wage like everyone else?

I don't think his point is so ridiculous. 
Wow.  The whole concept of entrepreneurship just went splat like a bug on a windshield with that one statement. 

You aren't just risking capital you have lying around.  If you have to take a loan to expand (and employ more people), as a small business you must sign personal guarantees essentially betting your house, assets, etc.  I employ 32 people at my business.  How many people have your socialist platitudes helped today?

If you don't understand the ridiculousness of the point, you should be satisfied with an hourly wage.  Or become a college lecturer.  Or run for office.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2008, 04:34:47 AM »
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And therein lies the problem.  What people 'deserve' is currently determined via economic coercion.  You call it the 'free market'.  But there is no 'free market'.  It is a figment of your imagination.

Ah, the fabled Marxist tactic - to take away people's freedom by persuading them they aren't free anyway, that this is not 'real' freedom.
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nico

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2008, 05:02:25 AM »
Yeah, what's the risk? That you'll lose all the millions and have to work for an hourly wage like everyone else?

I don't think his point is so ridiculous. 

Here's a specific example:
My dad opened his dental office about 3 years ago.  He took out over $300k in loans to get the start-up capital.  He's had a tough time getting it going and only has 3 employees.  If his business failed today, his employees could all have new jobs within a week.  My dad, on the other hand, couldn't get out of paying back those loans without declaring bankruptcy.   

Now, why exactly should my dad not benefit more from the success of his business than his employees?


[waits for "bankruptcy isn't all that bad" responses rolleyes]

charby

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2008, 05:09:12 AM »
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Paddy, where is it carved in stone that 'growth should be proportionately distributed'?

I'm not disagreeing with your statement, but from whence comes the presumption?

Growth should be proportionately distributed among those who created the value.  Why should mere ownership of the means of production take the majority of the proceeds?   What about those who created/added value through their labor? 

I'm 34, I work, I'm smart, I invest, I not very rich right now but I will be able to retire becasue of growth and actually I will more than likely be a multi-millionare in my 50's if growth is allowed to happen.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2008, 05:26:06 AM »
Sometime entrepreneurship involves great risk.  Like when mom and pop take a second mortgage on their house to open a business.  They may struggle for years before they begin to reap the rewards of their hard work and risk.  Then along comes Walmart who can afford to undercut their prices for the time it takes to put them out of business.  Zero risk for Walmart, huge rewards.

And how much risk is Nike taking with .50 cents sweatshop labor in a pair of shoes they sell for $175?

Between 2001 and 2006, the CEO's of AT&T, HP, Home Depot, Walmart, and 7 other multinationals were paid an aggregate of $865 million in compensation while shareholders lost a total of $640 billion.  Show me the risk/reward ratio, or remuneration based on value added there.

Anytime there is a call to treat people differently than machinery, equipment, and raw materials, the response from those who don't understand the founding principles of this country is always 'socialist'.  Well, people are not a commodity to be bought and sold and used according to their economic status.  We supposedly got rid of the wealthy ruling class back in 1776.  But they're coming back again, in the form of multinational corporatism and their paid partners in government.

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2008, 05:48:00 AM »
I was a-gonna smack Paddy McRiley & SS with a cluebat, but others already did the heavy lifting.

Paddy:

This country was not founded as a nanny state, as you seem to think, delicately tucking in the proletariat in with a red blankie every night.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2008, 05:57:50 AM »
This country was not founded as a nanny corporate state, as you seem to think, delicately tucking in the proletariat wealthy ruling class with a red blankie the fruits of middle class labor every night.

There, fixed it for you.  Or just keep screaming 'socialist/communist' if that soothes you.

xavier fremboe

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2008, 06:03:33 AM »
Sometime entrepreneurship involves great risk.  Like when mom and pop take a second mortgage on their house to open a business.  They may struggle for years before they begin to reap the rewards of their hard work and risk.  Then along comes Walmart who can afford to undercut their prices for the time it takes to put them out of business.  Zero risk for Walmart, huge rewards.

And how much risk is Nike taking with .50 cents sweatshop labor in a pair of shoes they sell for $175?

Between 2001 and 2006, the CEO's of AT&T, HP, Home Depot, Walmart, and 7 other multinationals were paid an aggregate of $865 million in compensation while shareholders lost a total of $640 billion.  Show me the risk/reward ratio, or remuneration based on value added there.

Anytime there is a call to treat people differently than machinery, equipment, and raw materials, the response from those who don't understand the founding principles of this country is always 'socialist'.  Well, people are not a commodity to be bought and sold and used according to their economic status.  We supposedly got rid of the wealthy ruling class back in 1776.  But they're coming back again, in the form of multinational corporatism and their paid partners in government.
So the point is that you are allowed to be an entrepreneur as long as you don't get too big and expand into another entrepreneur's market?  I shouldn't approach my competition's employees and offer them better working conditions/pay/benefits when I'm seeking to expand?  I'm shouldn't strive improve my operations to allow me to lower my price to my customer base and allow me to expand, promote my current employees, and hire more people here in the United States?

Ever read Harrison Bergeron by Vonnegut?  Why are you afraid of people excelling?
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2008, 06:15:27 AM »
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Probably because rich people create more economy than poor people. When you try to steal what the rich people create, they tend to get pissed off. Make the theft disproportionate and they get really pissed off. Pissed off rich people will kick you in the nuts. Leastwise that is what I hear.

The old debunked 'trickle down economics' scam.  If you give the rich tax breaks, they'll invest that money and spread it around.  But they don't.  Instead, they take it overseas and buy sweatshop labor to produce even more cheap substandard goods to sell to the American suckers they've ripped off.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2008, 06:33:35 AM »
So why was there no rise of unemployment when NAFTA was introduced?
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Glock Glockler

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2008, 06:49:05 AM »
Paddy,

Walmart can take advantage of cheap labor without risks because the US govt. underwrites it, they can open up factories in China because if the deal goes sour Uncle Sugar cuts them a check for their looses, that's not capitalism.  Companies should be free to go overseas if they want but they shouldn't get an ounce of favoritism, if things turn out bad they eat the loss.

If the govt. didn't specifically wipe their behinds they wouldn't be quite as likely to relocate to less than stable countries to take advantage of cheap labor. 

Balog

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2008, 06:58:23 AM »
And if the fed.gov didn't have so many policies in place to "protect the working man" American labor might actually be competitive.
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Azrael256

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2008, 07:36:51 AM »
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Between 2001 and 2006, the CEO's of AT&T, HP, Home Depot, Walmart, and 7 other multinationals were paid an aggregate of $865 million in compensation while shareholders lost a total of $640 billion.  Show me the risk/reward ratio, or remuneration based on value added there.

Poppycock.  The total market capitalization of the four companies you named only amount to a little over $600 billion.  Unless those other "multinationals" are all Berkshire Hathaway operating at a 90% loss, they did not lose 25% of their capitalized value each year for five years. (Yes, I just suggested a 125% loss)

But let's assume that this silly $640 billion number is real:

The value of shares is a function of the market, not necessarily of the company issuing the shares.  Markets do irrational things based on poor information.  If they were rational, there would be almost no way to profit from the market.  Believing that market price is rationally tied to corporate performance is the rookie mistake that puts day-trading amateurs in bankruptcy.  But, again, assuming this alleged $640 billion means anything:

A five-year aggregate decline in share price of $640 billion dollars represents roughly a 10% decline in share prices per year based on the 14 billion shares on the open market of just the four companies you named and their average price as of today, and not these other etherial "multinationals."  We can reasonably surmise that it is, in fact, far less than 10% per year, but I cannot calculate the exact number without knowing who else we're talking about.

$865 million in "compensation" is also an amusing number.  Since it's 11 companies, we'll average that out to $79 million over that five-year period to reach a rough estimate of $16 million a year.  Although this math may be wildly inaccurate, since one of these nonsense "multinationals" might well be Berkshire Hathaway.  For the record, the average CEO pay of the companies on the S&P 500 is roughly $8 million per year.

A-Rod turns an average of $27 million each year in salary alone, but does not run any company that employs thousands of people, produces goods/services for the markets, or contributes significantly to GDP.  His "value add" to GDP is miniscule compared to a fortune 500 executive, but he doesn't represent capitalist oppression, so we don't complain about him. 

The executives of those companies do, in fact, produce.  They produce executive management services that govern some of the largest companies in the world.  Clearly, "value added" is a matter of perspective, since the market for CEOs evidently values that service very highly.  Complaining about it implies that some socialist weasel, for some reason, knows better than the board of those companies, with their vested interest in the success of the company what a good CEO is worth.  Central planning worked so well for the Soviets, so congress should probably regulate CEO pay.  rolleyes

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2008, 07:50:46 AM »
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I cannot calculate the exact number without knowing who else we're talking about.

AT&T, BellSouth, Hewlett-Packard, Home Depot, Lucent, Merck, Pfizer, Safeway, Time Warner, Verizon and WalMart.  pp 26 "War on the Middle Class" by Lou Dobbs, 2006

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2008, 08:05:26 AM »
Lou Dobbs

 rolleyes

taurusowner

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2008, 08:12:19 AM »
Paddy, this is the part where you look up the cited sources in Lou's book and point us to the actual hard data that you're making your wild assumptions from.

Racehorse

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2008, 08:17:14 AM »
Wow, a lot of these explanations sound good in theory, but don't really pan out in the real world. Socialism has worked great every time it's been tried.  rolleyes

If those who are so worried about the distribution of wealth would actually put their money where their mouth is, I might find their arguments more persuasive. But it seems they only want to give someone else's money away.

Take away the promise of big, evil, capitalistic returns from the rich, and you take away any incentive for them to invest and produce. They'll just sit on what they've already got and not work at growth anymore.

taurusowner

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2008, 08:20:43 AM »
Paddy, what do you do as for employment?  Do you get paid?  If so, why?  Don't you think it would be much more noble and beneficial to society if you simply performed the service or created the good you do because people need them?  Why do you insist on getting something in return?

RocketMan

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2008, 06:21:27 PM »
Growth should be proportionately distributed among those who created the value.  Why should mere ownership of the means of production take the majority of the proceeds?   What about those who created/added value through their labor? 

Now, where have we heard this before?   rolleyes
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Tax Rates Have No Effect on Government Tax Revenue
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2008, 11:56:55 AM »
Now, where have we heard this before?   rolleyes

I believe it was Karl Marx.

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