Author Topic: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia  (Read 8144 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2010, 10:38:35 AM »
The minor gun possession issue is kind of a red-herring, even under strict scrutiny and if you treat incorporation as a given. There's tons of case law dealing with minors and first and fourth amendment rights, the voting franchise, any number of things. My minor children don't have the "right" to go make a speech in a public park whenever they want, just under the dictates of normal parental responsibility. I can't see the 2A being all that different.


The courts do recognize free speech for minors. There are several cases to that end.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2010, 03:44:14 PM »
The courts do recognize free speech for minors. There are several cases to that end.

Absolutely.

However, speech comes under the strict scrutiny standard, and a kid still can't sue for the right to do something dangerous like go harangue a crowd from a soap box down in the ghetto in the middle of the night if their parents don't want to permit it. Most of the 1st Amendment cases have been between public institutions such as schools and students over things like t-shirts that express various kinds of content.

The main issue is that the teen's lawyer tried to argue Heller means the state statute prohibiting minors from possessing handguns was unconstitutional, and really didn't do that great a job at it, giving the state court an out from dealing with deeper issues.

If the kid was challenging a Washington state law that said under no circumstances whatsoever may a child hold or fire a firearm, even at a proper gun range under adult supervision, the child-gun legal equivalent of D.C. or Chicago's absolute gun-bans, then he would have had some potentially serious standing. However, children target shoot and hunt all the time in many U.S. states, and even use firearms for self-defense in exigent situations.

I dislike it when the courts rule narrowly when it's something dear to my heart, but OTOH, for every case that could expand conservative, originalist, or libertarian principles, there are a thousand more cases that threaten to turn us into a nation of pure socialism through court fiat. The right to an education, health care, a living wage... Activist courts and broad rulings start inventing "rights" very quickly.

And just like in the political process, the courts can easily be packed with plaintiff's and counsel of the Left/collectivist mindset who generally have little better to do, while the Right/libertarian mindset is all too often occupied making a living and engaging in productive enterprise instead.

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brimic

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2010, 02:19:46 PM »
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2010, 06:14:59 PM »
I am sorry that I took so long to write this post, but I realize that this is a complex issue, and so I would like to attempt a thoughtful response.

First of all, on activist judiciaries:

There are three definitions of 'activist judiciary' I've seen people use: One, as an insult against any judges they disagree with. That's silly and I'm just ignoring it for our purposes. The second one is a judiciary that does not exercise restraint and respect for the status quo, but rather rules based on what the law says as far as they understand it. The third is the idea, expressed by some Progressive judges (most famously Oliver Wendell Holmes) that it is the role of the courts to interpret the law to bring about a more progressive society, even when the interpretation is patently not in bearing with the original text. This is also the 'living constitution' approach.

We already know that if the progressives get into the court, they will twist the Constitution as much as they want to to accomplish what they think is 'the right thing'. The answer is not to have a court that defers to the status quo. The court must defer not to the status quo, nor to our notions of 'utility', but to the law.

Second, on the issue of RKBA and pre-18-year olds:

I will assume that you support a strict scrutiny standard on the interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, the same standard utilized by the courts to free speech cases. If  the Washington State legislature enacted a law prohibiting anybody younger than 18 from writing a letter to a newspaper, posting on the Internet, or otherwise expressing their political opinion without parental consent, you would no doubt be outraged, and properly so. Nowhere in the Constitution can you find the backing for such a thing.

Now, consider the strict scrutiny standard. Under this standard, a law must satisfy a compelling government interest, be narrowly tailored to achieve it, and must use the least restrictive means possible to achieve that end. If all three of these are not satisfied, then the law does not meet this standard.

Now, what we want to do, I presume, is... prevent youngsters getting into gangs? Ten-year-olds buying cheapo pistols with their allowance and shooting each other with them? At any rate, an overall ban on firearms ownership for everybody younger than 18 years old is neither narrowly tailored for this purpose, nor is it the least restrictive means.

What is worse for the law's authors – as the dissenting judge clearly pointed out – is that a 17-year-old has not been viewed as a child during the Framers' era. Males of this age were part of the militia – are still, legally, part of the militia, and young men as young as 16 years old were accepted into the Continental Army. One of these seventeen-year-olds was Lafayette – can you imagine Lafayette being arrested due to not having parental consent to pack his pistol and sabre?

I understand, of course, that it is not realistic to expect the court to throw such a law out in the current political climate. But I don't see any reason to pretend this law is just, fair, or compatible with strict scrutiny.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2010, 08:07:01 PM »
There isn't an overall ban on possession by those under 18 in WA or under Fed. law.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.042

#'s 1-5(a) and 6 don't require parental permission.  #7 under WA law is the same "private property requires permission of the owner" rule as non-related adults have to abide by (at least I think WA has that law, if not, they should).  #8 is problematic as it doesn't mention emancipated minors (presumably the ones who would have an actual residence not owned in fact by their parents) but that might be effectively covered in that section of statute. #9 is a supremacy clause out.

About the only "age specific" issues are that they can't carry at all in town (#5 "areas where discharge is not permitted") and have to transport unloaded.  I'd change that myself, and I see your point, but it's hardly a "ban".

In Alaska a 16 year old can open carry if they are lawful to have the pistol.  You can't sell them one til they are 18 but they can be given one by their parents.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2010, 08:28:14 PM »
Uhm. 5(a) applies, specifically, only to carrying a longarm for hunting. Carrying a pistol is illegal, period (even for hunting), and carrying any firearm for self-defense is illegal period. 5(a) specifically states that a pistol is not covered under the exemption.

The law provides for the use of firearms by minor for sports (at shooting ranges and competitions), or with the approval of their parents or guardians. 7 is limited specifically to the point of firearms possession on "real property under the control of his or her parent, other relative, or legal guardian". It's not "private property requires permission of owner" because it does not allow for firearms possession except on property owned by said parent/relative/guardian.

I'll admit here and now it does allow for some freedoms I've not realized. But it is still a blanket prohibition of all carry of pistols outside of the guardian's property. In fact, even had the plaintiff possessed written permission from his parent or guardian to own a pistol, he'd still be screwed unless the guardian would be physically with him. In city limits, he'd be screwed even if he were flanked on both side by his parents.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2010, 09:44:38 PM »
1-4 say nothing about "long guns only", unless I'm missing something.  #4 says if you are hunting or trapping you can possess without parental permission.

Looking at it, 5(a) is basically "walking in the woods", camping perhaps.  So if handgun hunting is legal, in season you can carry one under #4, once the season closes you cannot under #5, with the same hunting safety certificate.  ???

My point on #7 was that anyone, adult or child, can't carry on anyone else's property without their permission.  In this, on their own parent's property, they are no more restricted than I would be, it simply isn't their property to authorize themselves.  So yes, they are limited more than an adult would be on other people's property (i.e. can't do it w/o parent), but no more than another person would be on their own parent's property.  Who would, one would hope, simply say they had permission (it needn't be in writing per the statute) if asked by the authorities.

Note again that under #6 they can in fact explicitely travel to or from #1-5 with an unloaded pistol in their possession.  There are also exceptions to the carry regs for lawfully possessed pistols in the "defenses to unlawful carry statute".

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.060  

For example: "The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 (the rules on carry) shall not apply to:
(9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or..."

Although technically the statute on carry cited: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050 doesn't seem to actually forbid open carry of a lawfully possessed unloaded pistol as long as the carrier meets one of the requirements of 9.41.060 (which parallel #1-4 of 9.41.042).

You might be in your rights at 16 to OC an unloaded gun to the range.

Anyway, I'm not seriously in disagreement with you in principle, i just like looking this stuff up and gaming the system.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 09:48:23 PM by carebear »
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

Mabs2

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2010, 03:44:22 PM »
Any news on this?
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RocketMan

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2010, 04:46:46 PM »
Any news on this?

It will probably be May at the earliest before their opinion is issued.
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Silver Bullet

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2010, 07:31:20 PM »
I'm hoping for reparations for gun owners who have had their rights infringed upon.   :cool:

Mabs2

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2010, 09:30:46 PM »
It will probably be May at the earliest before their opinion is issued.
Darn, I was hoping to at least hear about how talking was going, or has that stopped now?
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sanglant

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2010, 10:07:12 PM »
I'm hoping for reparations for gun owners who have had their rights infringed upon.   :cool:
40 acres and a mule? ???



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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2010, 10:45:16 PM »
Darn, I was hoping to at least hear about how talking was going, or has that stopped now?

I think we (the gun community) came to the consensus that we will get incorp. and probably by selective due process.

I think the voting predictions are all over the map though.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

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Silver Bullet

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2010, 01:02:58 AM »
40 acres and a mule? ???



=D

That sounds great !  At least, more than I'm expecting. 

Do I get to choose which 40 acres ? 

I don't know a whole lot about mules, although I have read the entire Asimov Foundation series. 

RocketMan

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2010, 03:49:04 AM »
Um, wrong kind of mule, there, Silver.  Sorry.   :P
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

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erictank

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2010, 05:53:56 AM »
It will probably be May at the earliest before their opinion is issued.

Estimates I saw were talking about June.

kgbsquirrel

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2010, 08:16:48 AM »
Just a small thought I'd toss into the pool (as if it wasn't chummed enough) regarding Privileges and Immunities. If a significant portion of the law community agrees that it was an incorrect decision why should the Justices have any qualms at all about over turning it? An obvious answer is that they are more concerned with personal opinion and ideology rather than attempting to find the most constitutionally correct answer, but I digress. A 140 year old wrong decision is no less wrong despite its age. How would our world look today if during Brown v. Board of Education the Supreme Court had decided to leave Plessy v. Ferguson in place simply because they would be overturning 58 years worth of law? (Hah! Not just minoroity liberals can play the racism card!) Case law and precedents be damned. Every few decades or so, and I truly wish it didn't lapse so long between occurances, those in positions to effect change open their eyes and make the right choice, instead of the safe, popular, or purchased one, and I can only wish that it would happen here. After all, it's not like these 9 need to worry about appeasing special interests and voters (and yes those are in that order intentionally) in order to stay in place.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010, 09:25:44 AM by kgbsquirrel »

AJ Dual

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Re: Gura gets spanked... HARD by Scalia
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2010, 08:37:53 AM »
I think you're partly right, however I do think that aside from personal political agenda, the court does view it's role within the balance and separation of powers seriously.

Even when it's a "bad" precedent, based on slavery or antebellum racism, the court is very leery of making sweeping decisions to overturn them. It's my belief they fear (and not without reason) that if they start making very strong decisions, "Court packing" will become even more prominent to try and reverse and swing decisions the other way as soon as a new Senate and POTUS have the power to do so, which will even further politicize the court and create a pendulum or see-saw effect with the court becoming a puppet which reverses itself on controversial decisions every generation or so.

That would have the net effect of seriously weakening the court, and upsetting the trifecta balance of powers that is one of the major underpinnings of the Republic. It would be a major step towards a kangaroo court, and third-worldisim.

So for instance, on matters or RKBA, if the court ruled very strongly, "Second Amendment Baby! Read it and weep! Clear as day! CCW and Machine Guns for everyone! GCA '68, NFA '34, and everything else is invalid!" There are those who'd spare no expense to try and get a court to overturn that decision. Then those who'd try to reinstate it... I know it's irritating when you're "right" on an issue like RKBA, but the court deciding everything you want in one fell swoop has some very serious potential to have all sorts of negative unintended consequences.

And there is an upside to gradually building up case law in the right direction on an issue as well. It compartmentalizes and makes those rights somewhat fault-tolerant against some future "bad court". When "good" decisions are very strong and broad, a bad court can overturn them in one fell swoop.
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