Sad... Scout leader killed by knife-toting psycho

[AZRedhawk44]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/22/scout-leader-fatally-stabbed-on-indiana-hiking-trip/

...


I've been getting more complacent recently in regards to my personal protection.  Carrying a Keltec instead of a larger gun, around town.  Going on group hikes with minimal gear... sometimes without a firearm or "big" knife, since I'm often hiking in a singles group and don't want to be off-putting.  About half the time I lead the hikes, and I don't want "my" hikes to be the ones where people say "I don't want to go on [AZRedhawk's] hikes because he always has that big gun with him!"

Then you hear about things like this.  150 yards from a neighborhood with houses.

Or, you end up having your own misadventures.

Sigh.

Once again, re-enforcing the need to look after one's self.  Civic education through the lens of the victim is always sad.

[Tallpine]

"I don't want to go on [AZRedhawk's] hikes because he always has that big gun with him!"

Fixed

[Perd Hapley]

Fixed

OK Mabs.

Edit: Grrrr...stupid autocorrect.

[vaskidmark]

Seriously -

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/08/robert-farago/question-of-the-day-have-you-ever-felt-you-needed-a-gun-and-didnt-have-one/

Question of the Day: Have You Ever Felt You Needed A Gun and Didn’t Have One?

Nice story about a person headed to the place where Taxachusetts makes you go through the hoops to get a License to Carry.  Situational awareness + time + distance allowed them to write the article.

There are those that swear by the Kel-Tec and feel comfortable carrying it.  There are those (like me) who forgot who said it but remember that wearing a gun is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable.  If you believe the Kel-Tec is not up to the job then sell it to someone who does and carry what you believe is in fact adequate.  The entire gun industry has gone wild producing small(er)-frame handguns in large calibers.  It comes down to the trade-off of power vs. comfort (recoil tolerance and ability to get back on target after the first shot).

All that said, AFAIK Boy Scout leaders are not supposed to be carrying except at designated marksmanship programs.  If your hikers are put off by the sight of the handgun then maybe a SafePacker http://www.thewilderness.com/storepinnacle/index.php?p=product&id=1356&parent=171 or something similar is needed.  Bet they'll be mighty happy to see that ol' .44 come out when it becomes necessary.

stay safe.

[Scout26]

Yep, as I point out, when trouble rears it ugly head, the first thing people are looking/asking for is for someone with a gun.

And yes, having a gun while involved with any BSA activity is huge No-No.  However, I always seem to forget to remove it from my car (no carry in Illinois anyway), before we go do anything Cub Scout event.

But, yeah AZ, your new hiking buddies may say "Owww, ick a gun!!" now, but if it ever comes to a time when a gun is the proper tool for the situation, they may be pretty thankful you have one.   

[MechAg94]

A minute before the 911 call alerting authorities that Anderson had been stabbed, Golitko's mother Valerie Henson, called 911 to report that her son had assaulted her during an altercation at their home, about 150 yards south of the trail, state police said.

Henson told police that after she fled to a neighbor's house, her son walked to the trail where Anderson was later stabbed. She said her son later returned home, smashed up their home and stabbed two dogs, killing one.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/08/22/scout-leader-fatally-stabbed-on-indiana-hiking-trip/#ixzz1VnUWBojV

Sounds like a wonderful person.  I hope they can give him the DP. 

[AZRedhawk44]

.  If your hikers are put off by the sight of the handgun then maybe a SafePacker http://www.thewilderness.com/storepinnacle/index.php?p=product&id=1356&parent=171 or something similar is needed.  Bet they'll be mighty happy to see that ol' .44 come out when it becomes necessary.

stay safe.

I've got a Maxpedition Versipack that does a good job with any of the following: 3" SP101, 4" S&W M65, XD9, CZ-75, 1911 commander or govt, or 4" Redhawk.  Out of sight of the naive.

It's a damned slow draw, though.  Requires 2 hands, and zipper manipulation.  And cross-draw, on top of that, which makes for a slow presentation after the draw.

It carries BARELY enough stuff for a day hike.  I climbed Mt Humphrey with it a couple weeks ago, with my little troupe o' single folks.  Had the 4" Redhawk, 1st aid kit, about 3/4 of the list from the typical "10 essentials," A 1L Nalgene, 5 more 16oz water bottles... but this was just too heavy around the shoulder.  It was almost a gallon of water, with a 3 pound handgun, and other stuff, pulling on the side of my neck.  But, I have been using it for the last several hikes because it lets me carry concealed without having the gun be a hindrance to mobility when hiking.  IWB just sucks when stomping up a mountain.

But, the appropriate gear for a 5+ mile hike in AZ heat requires me to carry more equipment (water in particular) than the Versipack allows.  Especially when comfort of carry is factored in.  That means backpack with two shoulder straps to distribute the load, which means the gun goes back on the hip.


I have an old Hunter-brand leather rig for my 5.5" blued Redhawk, cartridge loops and all.  I'm going to start wearing that on hikes (again).  Hoplophobic girls be damned (or guys, for that matter).  The older blued Redhawk has a very "lived in" quality to it, as does the leather.  The gun's backstrap bluing is worn out, the cylinder bluing is faded from a few hundred miles of leather-friction while stomping around, the holster and belt leather is broken in and creased in the right places.  It's out and "in your face" but it is difficult to argue with... it fits the AZ countryside very well.  I actually get NO sass from other hikers when I wear it, though I have when wearing any automatic, or the 4" stainless Redhawk in a black nylon holster.  I find the cartridge loops interfere with a large backpack and rub me uncomfortably, and the cartridge belt is useless for holding a belt knife or flashlight... but it's been the only gun and rig I've ever gotten no flack over back-country carry.

No more hikes with no gun, or with a measly little PF9 or smith 642 in the pocket.

[KD5NRH]

No more hikes with no gun, or with a measly little PF9 or smith 642 in the pocket.

Works in my vest, the SmartCarry, or a small belt holster.  If full power .357 mag isn't enough, then the threat is just too darn tough.

[Viking]

Spyderco?
Also, nice looking gun. Wish I had one .

[Tallpine]

Hoplophobic girls be damned (or guys, for that matter). 

 

If your hiking partners don't like you carrying a sidearm, then you have the wrong hiking partners.

What - has Arizona become that Californicated 

[geronimotwo]

this kind of story really bugs me. 

No more hikes with no gun, or with a measly little PF9 or smith 642 in the pocket.

you can always explain about the coyote problem their having.

[Regolith]

If your hiking partners don't like you carrying a sidearm, then you have the wrong hiking partners.

What - has Arizona become that Californicated 

Beat me to it...

[KD5NRH]

Spyderco?

Benchmade Griptilian.  Same price range as most of the Spydercos, but it seems to hold an edge better.

Also, nice looking gun. Wish I had one .

Taurus 605CH in stainless.  Not sure if they still offer that model.  Only drawback is that since the hammer is fully recessed in the frame, they don't even bother putting in a single action capability.  Quite reasonably priced, especially when you find one used.

[lee n. field]

Taurus 605CH in stainless.  Not sure if they still offer that model.

The hammerless is the 650 now.  Shrouded hammer is 651.  .38 equivalents are 850 and 851.

[Northwoods]

From the sound of the report it's unlikely a gun would have saved the guy had he been carrying.  He was in condition white focused on the tree and likely never saw it coming.  An armed bystander might have been able to shoot the BG.

I'd take this more as an object lesson in maintaining situational awareness than in being armed.  Most likely the BG wouldn't have attacked without the element of surprise.

[roo_ster]

The hammerless is the 650 now.  Shrouded hammer is 651.  .38 equivalents are 850 and 851.

Got the 651 in Titanium.  Not for the faint of heart.

[gunsmith]

yeah I read that too, I had no idea Scout leaders are not allowed to carry, but really-whats the worse that can happen to you in states like AZ/NV etc? You save a kid from a bear or a psycho & get kicked out? Most likely you'll be reinstated after a letter writing campaign or something..


Anyway AZ, what kind of hikes are you doing? Meaning what kind of groups? Sierra club?

[T.O.M.]

As a Scout leader, I feel horrible about this.  This leader was taking young boys on a hike at age 76.  The least of his worries should have been some nut job sticks a knife in his neck.  I know when I plan events for the boys, there are a hundred worries on my mind, but psycho killers will now end up on the list.  Good news, I have several cop dads and CCW holdering dads who have something useful around all the time.  Scout rules...well...whatever.  Concealed means concealed.

[TechMan]

Seriously -

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/08/robert-farago/question-of-the-day-have-you-ever-felt-you-needed-a-gun-and-didnt-have-one/

Question of the Day: Have You Ever Felt You Needed A Gun and Didn’t Have One?

Nice story about a person headed to the place where Taxachusetts makes you go through the hoops to get a License to Carry.  Situational awareness + time + distance allowed them to write the article.

There are those that swear by the Kel-Tec and feel comfortable carrying it.  There are those (like me) who forgot who said it but remember that wearing a gun is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable.  If you believe the Kel-Tec is not up to the job then sell it to someone who does and carry what you believe is in fact adequate.  The entire gun industry has gone wild producing small(er)-frame handguns in large calibers.  It comes down to the trade-off of power vs. comfort (recoil tolerance and ability to get back on target after the first shot).

All that said, AFAIK Boy Scout leaders are not supposed to be carrying except at designated marksmanship programs.  If your hikers are put off by the sight of the handgun then maybe a SafePacker http://www.thewilderness.com/storepinnacle/index.php?p=product&id=1356&parent=171 or something similar is needed.  Bet they'll be mighty happy to see that ol' .44 come out when it becomes necessary.

stay safe.

Clint Smith has been credited for that statement.

[Jamisjockey]

As a Scout leader, I feel horrible about this.  This leader was taking young boys on a hike at age 76.  The least of his worries should have been some nut job sticks a knife in his neck.  I know when I plan events for the boys, there are a hundred worries on my mind, but psycho killers will now end up on the list.  Good news, I have several cop dads and CCW holdering dads who have something useful around all the time.  Scout rules...well...whatever.  Concealed means concealed.

Ayup.  Last thing I'm going to do is give some weapon wielding psycho a chance at mine and someone else's kids.  After all, I'm expected to protect them from abuse, and watch out for signs of abuse, right? 

[roo_ster]

When I thought about safety and my son's Pack (I'm Tiger Cub den leader), I did not envision this sort of specific risk, but I did not exempt them from any risk "because they're Cub Scouts."

I'll take Chris & JJ tack on this issue.

[AZRedhawk44]

Anyway AZ, what kind of hikes are you doing? Meaning what kind of groups? Sierra club?

One is a little singles club.  Another group I hike with is a Meetup.com group that focuses purely on backpacking trips.

The meetup.com folks aren't too bad, but a couple of 'em are very experienced backpackers of the "ultralight" philosophy that are fortunate enough to have never had dangerous encounters in the back country.  I have had different experiences than them (2 lion encounters and 1 bear, no food negligence on my part, just remarkably bad luck) and we simply agree to disagree.  They are plenty experienced enough that, even if they don't carry, they've come across hundreds of other hikers that do carry and haven't shot 'em yet.   No problem.

It's the singles club that gives me pause.  Political spectrum is very broad in this group.  A lot of blissninnyism and holier-than-thou judgement from people that MIGHT be able to guess which end of the gun the bullet comes out from 2 out of 3 times.

I don't mind the confrontation with whomever the blissninny is... I tend to enjoy that conversation, actually.

But, I don't like the single-minded focus on the gun for the remainder of the hike.  Nor the assumption that "AZRedhawk44 = gun guy" and that I might have other things I want to talk about while hiking than the gun on my hip.  There are other people that wouldn't have brought it up, would have been perfectly okay with a live and let live attitude regarding it... except they then focus upon the gun for the whole hike rather than the scenery or wildlife or people.

I look at it as: the gun makes it possible to come out to a beautiful place like this and enjoy it without worrying too much about crazy people or large animals... strap it to your hip, keep it clean, and otherwise enjoy the outdoors. 

They (the curious ones, not the blissninny lib types) look at it as: zOMG you really carry a gun?  Why? Have you had to shoot anything with it before?  Is it that dangerous out here?  Why would you plan a hike for our group if it's really that dangerous out here?  Do you have a permit?  Can you shoot better than a cop?  Do you hunt?  Are you going to shoot anything on this trip? 

(And Gawd forbid I'm carrying a semiauto with exposed hammer and the hammer is back... then we get to talk about mechanical safety and philosophical safety along with all that.)

... and it turns into an hour-long regurgitation of the same tired conversation that I'm sure you guys have had dozens of times as well.

[Viking]

As a Scout leader, I feel horrible about this.  This leader was taking young boys on a hike at age 76.  The least of his worries should have been some nut job sticks a knife in his neck.  I know when I plan events for the boys, there are a hundred worries on my mind, but psycho killers will now end up on the list.  Good news, I have several cop dads and CCW holdering dads who have something useful around all the time.  Scout rules...well...whatever.  Concealed means concealed.

Also, better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission and all that.

[gunsmith]

... and it turns into an hour-long regurgitation of the same tired conversation that I'm sure you guys have had dozens of times as well.

it does indeed get tiring, I had to open carry a time last yr & it was a pita

[T.O.M.]

Also, better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission and all that.

After all, aren't all good scouts told to "Be prepared"?

I was once asked by a boy what you should be prepared for.  As always, the proper response is "for whatever happens."