Anti Radical Islam Film Yanked

[Scout26]

SiS,

DID

YOU

WATCH

THE

MOVIE

??

[De Selby]

You didn't watch it, SS.

Shut up. I'm sick of your excuses.

Why aren't you HALF as offended at things like Nick Berg getting his head sawed off by people chanting "allah akbar", which was done IN YOUR NAME?

Why aren't you as offended by hatred spewed towards Muslims as you are at hatred spewed towards other religions?

I am deeply repulsed at murder.  But what's happening on this thread isn't murder-what's happening here is the reproduction of Muslim hating propaganda.

That's why I'm saying something about Muslim hating propaganda.  Your attempt to turn this into a thread about Nick Berg, when it clearly has nothing to do with his killing, only illustrates that you are refusing to own up to your own actions.

If you're upset about murders, you should target the murderers.  Reproducing hate speech against Muslims does not one thing about the killing of innocent people; it just reproduces hate speech, period.  No amount of pointing the finger at murderers will change the fact that this is what you are doing.

[Manedwolf]

Obviously, he didn't. Of course he didn't.

He covers his ears and goes "LA LA LA" when we say that there is no propaganda, only video of radicals chanting for violence before crowds, and the results of those calls to violence, with the cries of the victims.

THERE IS NO FREAKING PROPAGANDA. The film-maker let the radicals show themselves! That's all!

Again.

THERE IS NO HATE SPEECH in the film, except for that coming out of the mouths of the radical imams! NONE!

Keep denying. You're making yourself look like an enabling fool, SS. Nothing more.

[De Selby]

SiS,

DID

YOU

WATCH

THE

MOVIE

??

No-and I didn't read any of David Irving's books either, because I knew who David Irving was.  

Do you refuse to condemn anti-semitic propaganda books until you've read them?  Or does the fact that a frothing at the mouth anti-semite wrote them serve well enough for you to condemn that kind of garbage?  It does for me-and the same applies for frothing at the mouth Muslim-haters.

[Scout26]

SIS,

Maybe you should watch the movie.  Then come lecture us about "Hate" speech.

[De Selby]

No thanks scout26, I don't watch anti-semitic garbage in full to condemn it, and I don't watch anti-Muslim garbage to condemn it. 

Here's a good comment by the Dutch PM on the clown who made this film:
http://www.rabat.um.dk/fr/menu/LAmbassade/Actualites/DanishPrimeMinistersDeclarationOnGeertWildersStatements.htm

I strongly condemn Geert Wilders condescending statements about Muslims. I find these expressions extremely offensive. They are so insulting that I wish to hear no group in Danish society referred to in such a manner in the public debate.

Edit:

To make the point more clear-what you are demanding is the equivalent of demanding that Jews read "Mein Kampf" before writing it off as garbage.  To be sure, there is intellectual value in picking apart propaganda works...but it is absolutely unreasonable to reject all those who condemn it based on the producer alone.  This is truly one of those cases where the author's actions and statements alone are enough to ignore the product. 

[Scout26]

I've read Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  No I haven't read Mr Irving's book, hence I will not comment on it until I've read it.

Again, why don't you watch the movie and THEN give us your opinion about it.

[Manedwolf]

I've read Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  No I haven't read Mr Irving's book, hence I will not comment on it until I've read it.

Again, why don't you watch the movie and THEN give us your opinion about it.

Simple answer.

He can't handle the truth.

Nothing in the movie but a collection of videos of the radical imams themselves, of their followers, what they call for, what they want.

It's easier to deny and pretend it doesn't exist. SS is going to be surprised someday when they come for him, too, for making a mistake and not being "Islamic enough".

[De Selby]

I've read Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.  No I haven't read Mr Irving's book, hence I will not comment on it until I've read it.

Again, why don't you watch the movie and THEN give us your opinion about it.

I'm glad you did read Mein Kampf-but are you saying that no one can write it off as anti-semitic trash without having read it?

[Scout26]

SiS,

That's the Dutch PM's Statement on Mr. Wilder's comments, NOT on the actual Film in question.

Why don't watch the movie, or can't you handle the truth ??

[Manedwolf]

Actually, I'm going to stop here, since it's obvious that SS is trying his usual nonsense to get the thread locked.

And it's too important for that. The fact that violence has been threatened against LiveLeak staffers for showing the film only validates what it shows.

If you want to comment on the film, watch the film. Even moderate Muslims who have seen it have commented that it's not bad like they thought. It's not anti-Muslim. It shows the horrible things being done by the perversion of Islam. It's a wake-up call.

Some people don't want to wake up. Oh well.

[De Selby]

SiS,

That's the Dutch PM's Statement on Mr. Wilder's comments, NOT on the actual Film in question.

Why don't watch the movie, or can't you handle the truth ??

Again, for the same reason I don't watch each film produced by Nazis just because some Nazi says "oh, but you haven't seen that documentary! That one proves there was no holocaust!"

The authorship speaks for itself-it is not necessary to review every piece of hate speech to know that it is hate speech.  Geert Wilders is a Muslim hater.  He is no different from the anti-semites in his country who spout this crap about Jews.  He targets Muslims instead.  

Watching his film and then concluding that it's a good account of Muslim society is like watching a film by an anti-semite, and then concluding that what you saw was a truthful and valuable account of Jewish life.  It is simply ridiculous-these films have absolutely zero value as far as honest study is concerned.  Their sole place is in the realm of propaganda-and when hating Muslims is popular, such films are taken seriously....just like anti-semitic trash was taken seriously in the past.  

[Scout26]

SiS,

I read Mein Kampf for the same reason I read Marx & Engels and a bunch of Soviet Military theory when I was an Army Officer.  So that I could better understand the enemy.

Since I'm Jewish, I thought it might be nice to know what drives others to hate us so much.

Until you watch the movie, your comments carry no credibility here.

[De Selby]

If you want to comment on the film, watch the film. Even moderate Muslims who have seen it have commented that it's not bad like they thought. It's not anti-Muslim. It shows the horrible things being done by the perversion of Islam. It's a wake-up call.

Some people don't want to wake up. Oh well.

No-it's just that Muslims and reasonable people rightly recognize this for what it is: propaganda.  A film put out by a guy who makes his living spouting conspiracy theories about Muslims and agitating for a ban on the whole religion is not a good source to go to for honest, unbiased evidence concerning Muslims.  This is obvious.

If you had something that was reasonably professional and put out by someone who at least tried to appear interested in research and study, that would be worth discussing.  But it's simply absurd to waive your fists and demand that Muslims watch garbage put out by a rabid anti-Muslim, and then to say "OH LOOK! Thye DON"T WANT THE TRUTH!!!!!" when we rightly refuse to waste our time with it.

A film by a Muslim hater on the internet is not even close to a starting point for finding information about Islam that is worthy of discussion.  That is why I am refusing to watch it, not because I'm secretly worried that MP Goldmember is making something "too close to the truth."

[De Selby]

SiS,

I read Mein Kampf for the same reason I read Marx & Engels and a bunch of Soviet Military theory when I was an Army Officer.  So that I could better understand the enemy.

Since I'm Jewish, I thought it might be nice to know what drives others to hate us so much.

Until you watch the movie, your comments carry no credibility here.

That is a laudable goal-but you aren't reading the product of Muslims to understand them.  Reading Mein Kampf to understand the Nazis makes perfect sense.  And watching Fitna is a great way to understand Geert Wilders.

But what you are doing is watching Geert Wilder's film, and then claiming that it gives understanding about Muslims.  That would be like reading Mein Kampf and then claiming you know something more about Judaism...which is ridiculous, obviously.

See the distinction? If you want to talk about what Wilder's film tells us about one Dutch politician, great.  But you and Manedwolf are claiming that this film tells you something about Islam...which is more like claiming that Mein Kampf has valuable insights into Judaism than it is claiming that there is value in reading Mein Kampf to understand the evils of Nazism.

[Scout26]

Wow, I'm truly impressed by your critical thinking.  

"Since I think it's propaganda, it must be, even though I haven't seen it."


You just keep on apologzing for the all the hideous things your co-religionist do in your name.  Then act real freakin' surprised when the backlash hits.

You might want to watch it, just to see what your own co-religionist are saying/doing in your name.   Or are you afraid to ??  It might hit a little to close to home.  You might have a harder time excusing the "excesses" if you were to see what is being done in the name of your religion.

it's just that Muslims and reasonable people

Yep, reasonable.  That's why they're rioting and and calling for his death.  

Yep, Jews and Catholics also rioted when "The Last Temptation of Christ" and "The Passion of the Christ" came out.  Oh wait, no they didn't.  They grumbled and wrote letters to the editors. But no-one was killed and a death warrents weren't issued by the Pope or any Rabbi's.  Nor do Scorsee or Mel Gibson live in fear of being killed by some relgious zealot seeking his way to "paradise".

[Scout26]

But what you are doing is watching Geert Wilder's film, and then claiming that it gives understanding about Muslims.

Since you have not seen the film, your comment/analogy is completely wrong.

I've seen the footage of the Allies liberating Nazi concentration camps.  Since the Nazi's didn't make those films they must be false, nicht wahr ??

Here's a spoiler on the film.

Mr Wilders doesn't say a word.  It's all clips of imam's and other Muslim/Islamic leaders/people doing and talking.  Yes, yes, yes, I know.  "It's all taken out of context."

Until you watch it, your words mean nothing.

[De Selby]

But what you are doing is watching Geert Wilder's film, and then claiming that it gives understanding about Muslims.

Since you have not seen the film, your comment/analogy is completely wrong.

I've seen the footage of the Allies liberating Nazi concentration camps.  Since the Nazi's didn't make those films they must be false, nicht wahr ??

Actually, you brought up a good point-I decided I should see the film to help better understand the hatred of Muslims and the propaganda campaign against them, and I just watched it.

And no, your analogy about footage of the camps is not even close in comparison.  This was a 20 minute screed with random quotes, cheesy music, and videos spliced in of brutal murders and some guy speaking like a psycho here or there.  A video of a concentration camp is proof that speaks for itself.  A video of some clown with a sword with the notation that it was on Saudi Arabian TV (you know, the Saudi TV that no Muslim gets to vote on?) is not the same thing.

Seriously, did you watch this thing and think "ah, there's a good documentary piece on Muslims...lots of info"

Because I saw a screed with no names, a few subtitles, and then an ominous chart of the growing number of Muslims in Europe...with the obvious ugly subtext that somehow "the numbers need to be reduced, comrades!"

So let's recap this:

20 minute film including:

1. Not even names of most of the people featured.

2. Less than one minute soundbites from each.

3. Highly charged videos of crowds doing who knows what, with cheesey music in the background.

4. An appeal to cut down the number of Muslims in Europe because it is growing too fast.

That is different from anti-semitic propaganda how? And in what sane world is this a starting point for gathering information on Islam?

This was Mr. Wilder's propaganda piece, pure and simple.  It is a badly done screed with soundbites, a crappy soundtrack, and extreme gore mixed in to evoke an emotional reaction.  There is really not a single ounce of material in that piece that would contribute to an honest and unbiased discussion of Islam and its role in the world, for any time period or place.

[De Selby]

Yep, Jews and Catholics also rioted when "The Last Temptation of Christ" and "The Passion of the Christ" came out.  Oh wait, no they didn't.  They grumbled and wrote letters to the editors. But no-one was killed and a death warrents weren't issued by the Pope or any Rabbi's.  Nor do Scorsee or Mel Gibson live in fear of being killed by some relgious zealot seeking his way to "paradise".

Again, if someone wanted to do a selective film only targeting Jews, this could easily happen.  Imagine if someone just took clips of the radical riots in Jerusalem, where yeshiva students burned cars and stabbed/stoned anyone they suspected of being gay or supporting the gay rights parade...or if they videotaped a Kach meeting where the participants regularly carry signs that say "Exterminate all the Arabs and Blacks"...and then posted that to you as a "troubling insight into the world of radical judaism."

I think you would be more than within your rights to write that off as total crap, and as the product of anti-semitism.  Which it would be.

But you don't apply the same standard to Muslims, apparently...how come?

[Scout26]

Seriously, did you watch this thing and think "ah, there's a good documentary piece on Muslims...lots of info

Who said I was gathering information about Islam ??   I learned more about Islam by sponsoring a Saudi Officer in my Officer Basic Class and talking with some of the truck drivers who worked with me.  

This film is about Radical Islam.  I don't hate Muslims, unless and until they try to kill/convert me.  

What you don't get is that until YOU take back your religion from the "Kill all the Infidels" nuts, your religion is going to viewed with skepitcism and fear.  Or do you believe that Islam must rule the world ??

This is Funny:

you know, the Saudi TV that no Muslim gets to vote on

Can you name me some Islamic countries were Muslim's get to vote ??  Iraq and Afghanistan don't count, 'cause if it wasn't our Imperial Storm Troopers over there, Saddam and the Taliban would still be getting 99.9999999% of the vote.

[De Selby]

This film is about Radical Islam.  I don't hate Muslims, unless and until they try to kill/convert me.   

Okay, answer this question please: If this film is about radical Muslims, why did he end with a chart showing the growth in total number of Muslims in Europe?

And why was there not a single Muslim shown who wasn't connected to violence?

Don't be silly-this film was obviously intended to attack all Muslims. 

What you don't get is that until YOU take back your religion from the "Kill all the Infidels" nuts, your religion is going to viewed with skepitcism and fear.  Or do you believe that Islam must rule the world ??

There's nothing to take back because they don't have it in the first place.  Sorry, but Bin Laden does not own Islam-there is nothing to take from him because he doesn't have any such claim in the first place. 

I recognize that terrorism will cause people to hate my religion-just like money caused many people to hate Jews.  But the fact that this hatred is predictable does not make it right. 

Or do you think that because Bin laden is bad, therefore, all Muslims must be held accountable for it?

Can you name me some Islamic countries were Muslim's get to vote ??  Iraq and Afghanistan don't count, 'cause if it wasn't our Imperial Storm Troopers over there, Saddam and the Taliban would still be getting 99.9999999% of the vote.

Yes-they get to vote in Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Malaysia.  They also get to elect local governors and their own judicial officials in Singapore.  Which is one of the reasons why all of those countries aren't run by bizarro-land nuts; they get some measure of choice (or at least did, at some point, in the case of Pakistan.)

It is the height of hypocrisy to take the statements of a monarchy whose sole ally in the world is the United States and then to blame all Muslims in the world for it-but that is exactly what this film did by relying almost exclusively on Saudi media productions.

[Scout26]

I'm not advocating anything.

But it wasn't Blond Haired Blue Eyed guys named Sven who flew planes into the WTC, or attcked the USS Cole or blew up a Disco is Bali.

It wasn't guys with a thick brogue and names liek O'Sullivan and Murphy who attacked our embassy's in Africa, or attacked the do-gooders handing out food in Somalia.

if they videotaped a Kach meeting where the participants regularly carry signs that say "Exterminate all the Arabs and Blacks

When Kach runs a county that is developing/has the bomb, then it's a problem.  In the meantime, I'll denouce and repudiate everything Kach stands for and work against them.  In fact Kach is banned in Isreal from running for the Knesset (in which Arabs have elected representatives) because it's a racist organization.   Tell if either the same is true in Muslim countries ?? (Freely elected Jewish representatives in the legislature and organizations that call for the deaths of non-muslims banned from running for office.

Have one set of standards there SiS.  You can't have one for the Christians/Jews/West and another for the Muslims.  Everyone gets Free speech or no-one gets it.  Everyone gets Freedom of Religion or no-one gets it.  You can't hold the west to a higher standard then what you willing to accept from your co-religionists.

[De Selby]

I'm not advocating anything.

Yes, but the film includes info about the total number of Muslims in Europe why? Because it's about all Muslims. 

It wasn't guys with a thick brogue and names liek O'Sullivan and Murphy who attacked our embassy's in Africa, or attacked the do-gooders handing out food in Somalia.

True-and it wasn't black guys or Arabs with turbans who marched millions of people into gas chambers in Europe.  But that is hardly reasonable grounds for insinuating something about white people or Europeans, and it is equally unreasonable to insinuate something about all Muslims in the same way.

Tell if either the same is true in Muslim countries ??

Well, it is true in Iran, where there are freely elected Jewish members of Parliament.  But they don't call for killing-they're supportive of their own country.


In any case, on the one hand, you recognzie that Muslims have no voice in running these oppressive governments.  But then on the other hand, you want to hold all Muslims accountable for the behavior of those same governments? How does that work?

You can't have one for the Christians/Jews/West and another for the Muslims.  Everyone gets Free speech or no-one gets it.  Everyone gets Freedom of Religion or no-one gets it.  You can't hold the west to a higher standard then what you willing to accept from your co-religionists.

Wait, are you arguing that because there are radicals in Saudi Arabia who hate Judaism, therefore, it is illegitimate to criticize hate speech against Muslims anywhere in the world?

I have no idea how that can be made sense of, if it is what youa re saying.  I am holding one standard here-every religion gets respect enough to have me write off hate-speech against it. 

What's your position on hate speech against religions? If some Muslim does it against another religion, is it okay to do it to Muslims?  If that's your attitude, you'll end up behaving exactly like the people quoted in this video.  I'd rather be better...wouldn't you?

[Scout26]

Sorry, but Bin Laden does not own Islam-there is nothing to take from him because he doesn't have any such claim in the first place.

Or do you think that because Bin laden is bad, therefore, all Muslims must be held accountable for it?

When Bin Laden or some other wacko group does something bad, the Muslim world partly cheers loudly and the rest is silent.  Silence indicates at least tacit approval.  I have yet to hear any prominent or the vast majority repudiate terrorist/bad actions/comments.  

Again Bin Laden isn't being aided by guys named Maurice or Francois.  He not hiding in caves and and being guarded by guys named Pedro and Juan.

I'll answer you're question:

Okay, answer this question please: If this film is about radical Muslims, why did he end with a chart showing the growth in total number of Muslims in Europe?

For the same reason we in the US grouse about illegal immigration.  Our culture is being overrun by by people who refuse to adapt/assimilate to their new country.  When I lived in Germany I adapted to their laws and culture, I didn't make Germany adapt to me.  

Now you get answer my previously asked questions.  Do you think that Islam should rule the world ??
Do you believe that I should be free to worship (or not worship) my G_d as I see fit ??

[Scout26]

What's your position on hate speech against religions? If some Muslim does it against another religion, is it okay to do it to Muslims?

I'm for freedom of speech.  In fact swore an oath to Protect and Defend everyone's right to it.  You want to talk bad about other religions and call for the extermination/liquidation/deaths of "non-believers" , be my guest.  You'll be very suspect in my eyes, but I will defend your right to say it.  But the minute you go from talk to action, then that same oath requires that I stop you, even if I have to kill you to prevent you/make you stop.   

However it's not hate speech to play the tapes of Muslims speaking against other religions/ethnicies and then acting on it.

Sorry but "That film is Hate Speech" doesn't fly.

I guess that's the difference between us.  I'm willing to lay down my life to ensure that you can speak freely and worship as you choose.  You're also willing to lay down my life to ensure that I can't speak freely nor worship (or not) as I choose, unless I agree with you and follow your religion.