Geraldo weighs in

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

By word are you referring to police reports? I was still waiting to see em


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[cassandra and sara's daddy]

And it's interesting that they claim they didn't know they were being filmed. Have you seen the longest available video? Seen the witness accounts?


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[RoadKingLarry]

Every time I read this thread, I'm reminded of an incident from 9 years ago here.  Two detectives arrest 2 young men for suspicion of murder.  One is found to have a .45 in his pocket.  Both are handcuffed and placed in cruisers.  One of them gets his hands from his back to his front (still cuffed), gets out of the car, and commences to run.  Cops shoot and kill fleeing handcuffed suspect.

One month later...
"Las Vegas Police Officers Actions Found Justifiable"  -KLAS TV News, Las Vegas.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/4909076/las-vegas-metro-police-shoot-and-kill-handcuffed-teen

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/4990822/las-vegas-police-officers-actions-found-justifiable

There has never been a "bad shoot" by cops in Las Vegas.
I had a cousin that was justifiably murdered by a Las Vegas cop. Kind of tends to color my views on these things a little.

[vaskidmark]

Tennessee v Garner  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner pretty much sets the stage these days on the "fleeing felon" rule.

There was a case in Cupeper Va a bit over 3 years ago that is still being beaten to death over at http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?99768-Culpeper-shooting .  The defense was that the driver was headed down the street towards downtown where there were a number of pedestrians who would be endangered.  It didn't work, although many observers (legal as well as lay) said it was well done.

Here we have a fleeing suspect (is failure to pay child support a felony?) that is alleged (for the nonce we will ignore any evidence to the contrary) to have had a TASER in his hand.  As an admirerer of great theater I would have liked to hear the explanation of how that endangered the lives of anybody who might have been in the direction he was running.  Sadly, I will apparently not have that opportunity.

stay safe.

[birdman]

As a side note, and NOT about this specific incident (merely related in terms of hardware) i personally believe that without mitigating circumstances if someone else is the aggressor, and is pointing a taser at me, and I have a firearm, I would consider the taser to be grave harm and a potentially lethal threat (less lethal just means not invariably so, and we know people have died from it, let alone the fact they could taser you, then walk up and kill you), and that would be sufficient for the potentiality part of the SD aspect...if within 10-15ft, then also opportunity. 
What do you think?  Does DEFINED less lethal aggressor  mean ok lethal response?
What if they are 30ft away?  Is it a 21ft + taser range?  (If they are pointing and you aren't drawn)?

I wonder if there is case history on such an aspect?

[Doggy Daddy]

There has never been a "bad shoot" by cops in Las Vegas.
I had a cousin that was justifiably murdered by a Las Vegas cop. Kind of tends to color my views on these things a little.

That is an unfortunate fact.

[De Selby]

As a side note, and NOT about this specific incident (merely related in terms of hardware) i personally believe that without mitigating circumstances if someone else is the aggressor, and is pointing a taser at me, and I have a firearm, I would consider the taser to be grave harm and a potentially lethal threat (less lethal just means not invariably so, and we know people have died from it, let alone the fact they could taser you, then walk up and kill you), and that would be sufficient for the potentiality part of the SD aspect...if within 10-15ft, then also opportunity.  
What do you think?  Does DEFINED less lethal aggressor  mean ok lethal response?
What if they are 30ft away?  Is it a 21ft + taser range?  (If they are pointing and you aren't drawn)?

I wonder if there is case history on such an aspect?

Jurisdiction specific legal advice is critical for these sorts of questions - thatd be the only sure way to get a legal perspective.

Not advice, but as a general principle based on common law rules, you should always be able to clearly articulate in your mind why your life is in danger, and why using lethal force is the only way to stop the danger.   Focusing on any trigger circumstances or events (ie, in your house or out, gun visible or not) is a recipe for making a decision that may not have been necessary to save your life.  And if using force isn't necessary to save your life, the risk that someone else will review your choices (like a jury) is absolutely not worth it.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

My fear would be that once tased they gain access to any firearm I carried


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[birdman]

My fear would be that once tased they gain access to any firearm I carried


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Or could simply beat you to death. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

True particularly if that someone had just fought his way  back to his feet and disarmed you of that taser.
Its similar to the rabbit and the beagle
Rabbits running for its life beagles in it cause its his job


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[De Selby]

Or could simply beat you to death. 

A real fear, but heavily dependant on the facts of each instance. If there are circumstances that clearly mitigate the risk, you can get into real trouble.

Of course, if a video shows up on the Internet of you shooting someone while they're at a distance running away, you can expect a murder charge no matter what story you give.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Facts like fighting for control of a weapon?
Couple factors that are different for a cop. Its not typically an option to throw up their hands and quit. Its not really sop. Folks actually expect them to keep after the guys they are arresting


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[De Selby]

My fear would be that once tased they gain access to any firearm I carried


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Think through that rule for a second - if a suspect is running to a place you can't see, he might have weapons there, particularly a house.  Does that mean any time a suspect runs a police shoot is good?

Scenarios for harm need to be reasonable and based on concrete facts, not fanciful or based on maybes.  They also can't depend on choices you make later.  Being at higher risk for a messy arrest because someone runs into an abandoned building isn't for example cause to shoot them before they get in the door.

The most disturbing element of support for the cop in this case is that supporters seem to view the gun as a compliance tool - keep resisting and it's the option that follows baton and tasers.  That is completely wrongheaded and a dangerous way to think about policing and state power.  

A police handgun serves the same purpose as a ccw, no more.  It is not there to ensure that people obey directions or submit to even lawful commands.

[De Selby]

Facts like fighting for control of a weapon?
Couple factors that are different for a cop. Its not typically an option to throw up their hands and quit. Its not really sop. Folks actually expect them to keep after the guys they are arresting


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The handgun isn't a tool to help the cop carry out lawful instructions.  And if you watch the video, there's no struggle or even remotely arguable appearance of struggle when the shots are fired.

[just Warren]

It might well be close enough for a jury. A good defense guy can make that happen.


As to Scout's feMP I could see her being prosecuted if she let the guy go and he stabbed someone with that broken bottle. "Well why didn't you shoot him? Didn't you care that he cold have hurt someone?" So that was possibly a no-win situation for her.

[Hawkmoon]

My fear would be that once tased they gain access to any firearm I carried

Doesn't work if the "threat" is 10 yards away and increasing the distance as fast as his legs will carry him AWAY FROM you.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Hes got a real lawyer now. He might well opt for a bench trial. I might. I am not hip on how politicized the judiciary  is there. I have found its tougher to get a decent appeal off a bench trial too. Other members if the lawyers guild are less inclined to risk hurting a fellow members feelings. Plus a bench trial tends to be more controlled less openings for reversible error. And i would have to be planning on appeal as a backup.
Heck i would have to consider a manslaughter plea deal with the right sentencing recommendation. This is gonna be a political circus so there may be no offer.


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[MechAg94]

The handgun isn't a tool to help the cop carry out lawful instructions.  And if you watch the video, there's no struggle or even remotely arguable appearance of struggle when the shots are fired.

I think you are splitting hairs.  I don't think you can separate the 5 seconds of the actual shooting from everything else that occurred.  Not and be truly objective. 

[makattak]

As I don't have a dog in this fight, and can't recall- I'm fairly certain the officer's backup came from the direction the deceased was running,  no?

How long after the shoot did the other officer show up? It was less than a minute I think

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Assuming objectivity is a goal presumes facts not in evidence


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[Jocassee]

Tennessee v Garner  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner pretty much sets the stage these days on the "fleeing felon" rule.

There was a case in Cupeper Va a bit over 3 years ago that is still being beaten to death over at http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?99768-Culpeper-shooting .  The defense was that the driver was headed down the street towards downtown where there were a number of pedestrians who would be endangered.  It didn't work, although many observers (legal as well as lay) said it was well done.

Here we have a fleeing suspect (is failure to pay child support a felony?) that is alleged (for the nonce we will ignore any evidence to the contrary) to have had a TASER in his hand.  As an admirerer of great theater I would have liked to hear the explanation of how that endangered the lives of anybody who might have been in the direction he was running.  Sadly, I will apparently not have that opportunity.

stay safe.

Well put, but at this point we know there was a 1.45 minute fight with a police officer, before a taser was used (and that potentially on the officer). I don't know if that makes him a violent felon but it does make him a felon who had a 1.45 minute fight with a cop.

[De Selby]

I think you are splitting hairs.  I don't think you can separate the 5 seconds of the actual shooting from everything else that occurred.  Not and be truly objective. 

the difference between shooting someone who you are locked in struggle with, and shooting them in the back 10 yards away running, is not hair splitting.  

If you can't reassess your actions fast enough to account for the difference, you should not use a gun for SD.

[De Selby]

As a larger matter, automatically lining up to oppose the activists mostly just demonstrates that all parties to the issue are equally irrational and knee jerk.

Yes, obviously the activists will make a stink about this shooting.  They appear to be right to do so from the video.  There is no sense in finding reasons to make this like the ferguson shooting.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Appear to be? Thats not the definitive i have come to expect


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[MechAg94]

As a larger matter, automatically lining up to oppose the activists mostly just demonstrates that all parties to the issue are equally irrational and knee jerk.

Yes, obviously the activists will make a stink about this shooting.  They appear to be right to do so from the video.  There is no sense in finding reasons to make this like the ferguson shooting.

There aren't many activists on this one.  Maybe you?