Author Topic: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees  (Read 25220 times)

Leatherneck

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2010, 07:25:52 PM »
I don't see this particular thing as tyranny, Waitone; this is simply uncivil behavior reinforced by the courts (so far).

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vaskidmark

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2010, 07:27:16 PM »
As much as I despise the message of WBC, I find I must support their right to deliver that message.

Having witnessed the folks from WBC in action, I can tell you that they are not really that loud or that disruptive.  It is just that their message is abhorent.  They have not, to my knowlege, actually entered into a cemetary or place of worship to chant and display their signs.  They stand on the public right of way as close to the entrance of the venue as they can get.  Since they do not, again to my knowlege, use loudspeakers or bullhorns their noise generally can be effectively muffled by shutting the door or by distance.

The Patriot Guard riders do a wonderful job of blocking WBC from near access to where funerals are taking place and drowning out their chants as the family passes close to where they (WBC) are.  The folks who need to revise their methods are, IMHO, the cops.  Instead of arriving ahead of time and setting up barricades and boundaries they should wait until someone calls 911.

As for the general public that comes out to see the spectacle, I'd like to offer the following suggestion.  Go to where the WBC members are standing and shouting, and surround them.  Just stand next to them and do so in numbers sufficient to screen them and prevent them from moving.  If they start to move laterally, either 1) (preferred) stand still and force them to assault you in order to move, or 2) (more likely how folks will react) move with them but do not break the screen.

But then I'm a veteran of non-violent civil disobediance from way back.  And I hate Illinois Nazis.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Leatherneck

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2010, 07:31:16 PM »
Good thoughts, Skidmark. Lord help me, I might buy a Harley and resume riding just to join the Patriot Riders.

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Scout26

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2010, 07:50:06 PM »
Well, maybe, Fisty. But if not there and then, where and when?

TC

How about anywhere but there ??

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280plus

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2010, 07:54:38 PM »
Good thoughts, Skidmark. Lord help me, I might buy a Harley and resume riding just to join the Patriot Riders.

TC
Yea, I have to say that is ONE reason that could actually coerce me to do the same.
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vaskidmark

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2010, 07:54:51 PM »
Good thoughts, Skidmark. Lord help me, I might buy a Harley and resume riding just to join the Patriot Riders.

TC

No need to buy a scooter to join them.  As a matter of fact having a few cages riding along can be quite helpful -- think cargo-carrying capacity among other things.

I'm not anywhere as active as I ought to be, but I've showed up a couple of times and was welcomed.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

grampster

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2010, 08:02:52 PM »
Freedom of speech ends when that speech becomes disorderly conduct by creating a disturbance.  Depends on local ordinances or state statutes.  When I was in LE, we arrested people who's behavior by word or deed in my presence interfered with the peace of innocent bystanders.  Perhaps that's subjective, but my judgment as LE is many times subjective when enforcing misdemeanors.

Whether the charges stuck or not was up to the prosecutor and or the court.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

280plus

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2010, 08:09:32 PM »
I think the fact that noone has taken any of them out yet is a testament to the will of the people to make this thing work the way it's supposed to. It shows what the good people in this country are made of.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2010, 08:42:34 PM »
As much as I despise the message of WBC, I find I must support their right to deliver that message.

As do I.  In an appropriate time, place and manner, as with any other speech. 
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2010, 08:54:29 PM »
Go to where the WBC members are standing and shouting, and surround them.  Just stand next to them and do so in numbers sufficient to screen them and prevent them from moving.  If they start to move laterally, either 1) (preferred) stand still and force them to assault you in order to move, or 2) (more likely how folks will react) move with them but do not break the screen.

skidmark

I like that idea. Perhaps also carry your own large blank banners and picket signs? Just large blank pieces of canvas to obstruct the view of anything being held up by them.


As for getting a chopper and joining the riders, do you thinking hauling out my unmuffled M35A2 deuce and a half would be sufficient? It can block alot of view and is plenty loud.  :lol:

sanglant

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2010, 09:28:42 PM »
just a mental image, it would be funny to see them roped off into a little freespeech zone and the Marines airdrop(or just quickly set up) a (really big) tent over them. :O

Hawkmoon

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2010, 09:37:30 PM »
In addition to Hawk, I would like to point out that the first amendment protects the family's right to practice religion.

While I always appreciate a supporting opinion, I have to point out that the 1st Amendment does not protect anyone's freedom to practice a religion. The 1st Amendment says that "the Congress" shall not enact any law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Incorporation of the 1st Amendment against the states via the 14th Amendment merely says that the states also may not enact any law establishing a state religion, or prohibiting the free exercise of one's religion.

Any laws that protect individuals from religious interference by other individuals (not the State) derive from other laws, if any, NOT from the 1st Amendment.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2010, 09:40:44 PM »
....point out that the 1st Amendment does not protect anyone's freedom to practice a religion.
....
The 1st Amendment says that "the Congress" shall not enact any law ... prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

How does that work again?

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2010, 10:39:46 PM »
Free speech does not grant you license to disturb the peace or cause pain and suffering to others.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2010, 10:40:13 PM »
.

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2010, 10:44:46 PM »
Well, maybe, Fisty. But if not there and then, where and when?

TC

Federalism means not everything is a federal case.  Let the locals determine what sort of public disruption of lawful religious observance is allowable.  
Regards,

roo_ster

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S. Williamson

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2010, 11:00:28 PM »
Perhaps an ordnance prohibiting demonstrations within a certain radius of cemeteries and/or religious structures.  ???
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vaskidmark

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2010, 11:41:25 PM »
Quote
Free speech does not grant you license to disturb the peace or cause pain and suffering to others.

Beg to differ with you on that last part.  There are reasonable restrictions on "free speech" such as not inciting to riot, not uttering a liable or slander, and not advocating the violent overthrow of the government.  Causing "pain and suffering" is not one of the things the .gov can resasonably restrict me from doing.  Your recourse for hurt feelings is to seek redress through the civil processes.

As for "disturbing the peace" -- let's start with the wiki definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disturbing_the_peace "Disturbing the peace is a crime generally defined as the unsettling of proper order in a public space through one's actions. This can include creating loud noise by fighting or challenging to fight, disturbing others by loud and unreasonable noise (including loud music or dog barking), or using offensive words or insults likely to incite violence."

Nothing the WBC folks do at funerals even comes close to the above behaviors.  Their chanting does not rise to the decible level of excessive noise, and the words they say do not challenge to fight and are not anywhere near as offensive as the common (in both senses of the word) conversations of many.  They do not hurl insults likely to incite violence, although there are some who apparently would respond with violence against them.

The WBC folks express their opinion on the difference between their (WBC's) religiously-derived beliefs and the policy of the .gov.  They also offer their opinion/speculation on the behavior of persons who hold religious beliefs different from their own.

And as for the notion of
Quote
an ordnance prohibiting demonstrations within a certain radius of cemeteries and/or religious structures
-- aren't we already upset by the establishment of "free speech zones", complete with chain link fencing, set aside where they cannot be seen or heard from where our .gov officials are speechifying?  What makes doing that to the WBC acceptable but otherwise a trampling of First Amendment rights for the rest of us?

As long as the WBC folks do not block traffic or create a safety hazzard by their physical actions, and they do not commit criminal trespass on private property, they should be free to make asses of themselves no matter how much you may disagree with or dislike what they are saying.  And I will, to repeat the statement of someone whose name eludes me at the moment, defend to the death their right regardless of the fact that I totally disagree with what they are saying.

For me the bottom line is that it is not the place for .gov to attempt to restrict or mediate the speech of WBC because some find it offensive or disagree with their opinions.  It is, however, the right and duty of every individual to demonstrate by peaceful means their disagreement with both the message and the way in which the message is delivered.  I am not aware that WBC obtains parade or demonstration permits, so there is little risk of law enforcement stepping in to preserve a privilege granted to them by the .gov.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

KD5NRH

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2010, 11:52:19 PM »
There is no legitimate reason to protest a funeral,

I hope to be in good enough shape to protest mine.


kgbsquirrel

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2010, 11:58:44 PM »
That is a very good post Skid, but I think I should make mention of Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 1942. The SCOTUS determined nine to zero that words or messages that by their very nature would incite violence or a breach of the peace are among the few not covered by the First Amendment. This is well known as the "fighting words" doctrine, and well, I'm not sure about you, but I think I can safely say for every current or former member of the military I have ever met, holding a sign at a soldier's funeral proclaiming....



..and..



...would incite more than a little violence or a breach of the peace. While I do feel a little cross with myself for taking this position, I do have to remind myself that liberty is being free to do what you will so long as you do not harm others. In this case I can find no way to defend WBC under the first amendment.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 12:03:21 AM by kgbsquirrel »

S. Williamson

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2010, 12:40:46 AM »
Before I continue, let me plainly express the following:
1) I am not advocating violence against the group.
2) I would not condone violence against the group.

However,



Wouldn't it be deliciously ironic if someone "pushed too far" (disregarding the above legal debate over whether their signs are capable of driving someone to that point) implemented the object referenced in the image against the group?  ;/
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2010, 12:44:51 AM »
Now, I served (if it can so be called, given the nature of my service) in a different military, and I am myself a member of the group the Phelpsians hate. I am not sure I agree with banning their protests, but I have a question:

Isn't America at war in Iraq?

Wouldn't it be arguably illegal to actively cheer on the enemy in time of war and to openly state that you want as many soldiers killed as possible?
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2010, 12:50:14 AM »
CNN is conducting a poll.  Even their decidely liberal viewership is well over 80% in the "this is a really boneheaded decision" category.

What's really telling is how CNN has the poll question worded...

"Should the dad of a dead Marine be forced to pay legal costs for funeral protesters he sued unsuccessfully?"
(bolding mine -Brad)

Jeez, these unabashed haters even tried to put a twist on this.

Brad
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sanglant

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2010, 03:28:11 AM »
just for some perspective(yes i have watched ratatouille to much :angel:), where would the press and courts be if the graveyards in question were planed parenthood building? :angel: please don't reply to this, not trying to get the thread locked. i just meant it as a what's the word ehh something to think about.[popcorn] really any of the left's(or the right if they ever get to the point they own most of the media :P) special children's groups could be substituted. =D

mods, what would you(as a group) think of having a option to mark a post for review before it's posted. :laugh: some days it would be nice to have some(of mine at least) posts nuked before they go live. [tinfoil] just an side effect of the drugs i guess. :facepalm:

KD5NRH

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Re: Marine Father ordered to pay Fred Phelps court fees
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2010, 03:33:35 AM »
One commentor on the site had a very good point, What if I stood outside the NAACP all day screaming "God hates N-words" all "N-words are going to hell".

Suddenly I see an opportunity to put the KKK on the front lines; make them some signs identical to the WBC ones except for replacing "soldiers" with the obvious epithet, send them to some black funerals, and see how the courts try to justify treating the two any differently.