Marine Veteran critically injured at Occupy Oakland

[Fitz]

Just out of curiousity... does everyone realize this was very shortly after several police were hit with rocks and other hard objects?

I don't object to the use of tear gas if crowds start throwing rocks. That said, if the cop intentionally hit this kid, he deserves to be fired, possibly prosecuted.

But what really agitates me is the friggin insinuation that the cops shouldn't have been using the gas in the first place.

*expletive deleted*ck that.

You throw rocks at the cops, you have some discomfort coming your way. No sympathy.

[kgbsquirrel]

But what really agitates me is the friggin insinuation that the cops shouldn't have been using the gas in the first place.

Since I've asked others to clarify their positions I suppose it's only right that I do so as well: I hold no sympathy for the protesters and acknowledge that injured-dude could well have caught a canister that bounced off the pavement or was just the unlucky sod who was in the way of one fired high overhead. That aside, what has me agitated is the use of a crowd control device to disperse first responders to a medical emergency. I find that to be an unconscionably immoral act.

Edit: First responder in this instance is being used as a generic term for first people on the scene rendering medical assistance. Thought I should toss that in following the conversation with my ex-paramedic friend.

[Fitz]

The flash bang was too far, I agree, and the *expletive deleted* responsible will probably not escape punishment, with the huge preponderance of video evidence and the outrage over it.

But I don't have a problem with the police putting some hurt on these folks.

However, to throw a flash bang into a crowd trying to rescue an injured person... yeah. that's terrible

[gunsmith]

its quite possible the cop throwing the flash bang had no idea they were first responders - it was other OWS folks not uniformed EMT's trying to carry the guy

[Fitz]

I guess i COULD believe that, but it's pretty unlikely.

Bleeding guy on the ground, very small crowd of people moving towards the bleeding guy, etc.

Possible he made a mistake. Highly unlikely

[Perd Hapley]

To denounce the police for violating this Quisling's right to peaceably demonstrate (assuming they did so), while pointing out the Occupiers' attacks on the rights of the 1% those of us who earn enough money to pay taxes, is to be consistent.

I thought we all agreed that it wasn't a flash bang?

[Fitz]

To denounce the police for violating this Quisling's right to peaceably demonstrate (assuming they did so), while pointing out the Occupiers' attacks on the rights of the 1% those of us who earn enough money to pay taxes, is to be consistent.

I thought we all agreed that it wasn't a flash bang?

Yeah, I see it now that i'm watching a better quality vid.

Plain CS, it looks like

So, Crowd gets gassed by cops after throwing a bunch of rocks and paint. One ex marine gets injured in the process. People try to rescue them, Officer Friendly throws a CS grenade into em.

Yeah. Officer friendly is a *expletive deleted*che. throwing gas at a downed person is bad juju. Also bad juju to gas the people attempting to rescue him

[Seenterman]

But what really agitates me is the friggin insinuation that the cops shouldn't have been using the gas in the first place.

I don't think anyone has said that in this thread. I'm pissed that Scott got hit in the face with a tear gas canister; granted as kgb said its possible the canister was shot at the ground and ricocheted into his face. What I'm outraged at is the officer who throws a CS grenade at Scott after he is down and the group of people attempting to help him.

[Fitz]

I don't think anyone has said that in this thread. I'm pissed that Scott got hit in the face with a tear gas canister; granted as kgb said its possible the canister was shot at the ground and ricocheted into his face. What I'm outraged at is the officer who throws a CS grenade at Scott after he is down and the group of people attempting to help him.

Bah, i wasn't speaking of anyone in this thread. It's the general outrage all over the interwebz about "ZOMG THE COPS USING GAS ON PEACEFUL PROTESTORS OH NOEZ!" that pisses me off

THe protestors in oakland, even before this incident, were anything but peaceful

[vaskidmark]

For some reason I am disregarding all the other voices in my head and responding to this thread.

I put in a lot of time at various riots/demonstrations during the late '60s with the 2nd MarDiv Civil Response Battalion, including Battalion point on several occasions.  If it was west of the Atlantic Ocean and east of the Missisippi River I was probably there.  I then was tasked with putting that experience to use advising the Dept. of Corrections on crowd control/riot control involving non-adjudicated detainees.  Those are my bone fides.

As best I can understand the situation the task of the police at this location at the time of this incident were to maintain a secure perimeter.  In other words, keep the riffraff on their side of some arbitrary line.  There was no assignment to push the crowd back or to clear a way through the crowd from their barricade line to some other spot on the earth.

If this assessment is correct, everything that happened with those cops at that location was just plain wrong.

Again, as best as I can understand things some other cops were tasked with clearing the crowd out of the square, and to that end they used some sort of gas to make the crowd want to leave of their own, albeit reluctant, volition.  That was all the gas being tossed into the area.  The cops at the point of our interest seem to have been aware of and prepared for the use of gas as they already had their masks on.  (If you have ever hung around inside a mask you know why it is described as not being the most comfortable thing to do.  It's hot, sweaty, limits your vision and screws with your hearing because of the Darth Vader sound of your own breathing.)

As best I can observe some of the crowd moved towards the location of "our" cops but made no overt attempt to breach the barricade.  Thus they are just milling around looking for a place with the least amount of gas to be breathed in.  "Our" cops should be doing nothing but maintaining their barricade's integrity.  If folks behind them are lobbing objects in their direction they should either peel off a contingent or preferably have their reserve (they did have a reserve, didn't they?) go deal with the lobbers.  Maintain the integrity of the barricade - non passaran and all that.

So, why did that one cop decide he just had to use his gas grenade?  How did that advance the mission of his unit?

You all know I have no answers.  But I'm not paid to give answers, just ask the questions.

stay safe.

[AJ Dual]

Being a juggalo makes it okay if someone shoots you in the face? The bar is being set low.

 

Absolutely not.

Not worth the price of ammo. Nor can we do that "bill the family" thing that China does.

You hand them kitchen magnets, and nature takes it's course, and they die of brain hemorrhaging, thinking too hard about "miracles".

Although seriously Micro, the notions of "sympathy" for someone, and determining moral/legal/ethical right and wrong are severable. At least in my mind.

His stance on U.S. Marines, having been one himself, and a Juggalo, allows me the luxury of having 0.00 on the sympathy meter for the man, while still recognizing that the actions of the police officer who most likely fired a tear gas canister at him at close range intentionally, hoping to "thump" him, and not considering it was potentially very lethal force, were wrong, and illegal.

Hence my no winners here stance, from a "sympathy" standpoint, but that agreeing what the cop did was wrong legally and ethically.

[rcnixon]

The question is, why was he there in the first place?  Just because he is a Marine vet, doesn't mean he is not taking part in the demonstration, and if he was, he deserves what he got.....chris3

Because he has the right to be anywhere he damn pleases.  He also has the expectation of not being hit in the face with a projectile fired by rioting cops.  He further has the expectation of assistance from the police per their OWN DEPARTMENT'S policy.  Whether or not you agree with the protesters, they are exercising their first amendment rights to free association, political utterances and redress.

Russ

[makattak]

And I'm still reading people assuming the police officer who threw the CS grenade had ill intent.

Allow me to juxtapose a few quotes for perspective:

What I'm outraged at is the officer who throws a CS grenade at Scott after he is down and the group of people attempting to help him.

So, Crowd gets gassed by cops after throwing a bunch of rocks and paint. One ex marine gets injured in the process. People try to rescue them, Officer Friendly throws a CS grenade into em.

Yeah. Officer friendly is a *expletive deleted*che. throwing gas at a downed person is bad juju. Also bad juju to gas the people attempting to rescue him

(If you have ever hung around inside a mask you know why it is described as not being the most comfortable thing to do.  It's hot, sweaty, limits your vision and screws with your hearing because of the Darth Vader sound of your own breathing.)

I guess i COULD believe that, but it's pretty unlikely.

Bleeding guy on the ground, very small crowd of people moving towards the bleeding guy, etc.

Possible he made a mistake. Highly unlikely

And, as I already pointed out:

I've now watched that video multiple times. I would not be able to tell that is a person had I not had multiple voice-overs and circles of the clump of clothes.

This, to me, is simply an unfortunate combination of events. The ex-marine was injured (as we don't know how, I will not assign blame. It could have been the cops or the violent "protestors", intentionally or accidentally.) While he is down, the police have obscured vision with their masks, in the dark, with a rather inconspicuous clump of clothes. A group of protestors, without obscured vision see the man and charge towards the police to aid the ex-marine. The police officer responds to what appears to be a group moving towards the barricade and attempts to clear the area.

I don't see anything wrong in this video, I see an unfortunate circumstance for all involved. It sucks to get injured at a protest, but when members of your protest decide to turn it into a riot, that is what can happen.

[MicroBalrog]

Eyewitness testimony:

http://reason.com/archives/2011/10/28/what-happened-at-occupy-oaklan

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Because he has the right to be anywhere he damn pleases.  He also has the expectation of not being hit in the face with a projectile fired by rioting cops.  He further has the expectation of assistance from the police per their OWN DEPARTMENT'S policy.  Whether or not you agree with the protesters, they are exercising their first amendment rights to free association, political utterances and redress.

Russ

not even close. didn't the cops give em 5 mins to leave?
bad decision making by the folks that stayed

[roo_ster]

And I'm still reading people assuming the police officer who threw the CS grenade had ill intent.

That is the assumption because that is most likely what occurred, given the video and the time line.  Yes, I have spent more than my share of time in a p-mask.

I agree that the tears of a hippie are both sweet and satisfying, but I am less sanguine about hippie blood and malicious acts by agents of the state.

[MechAg94]

That is the assumption because that is most likely what occurred, given the video and the time line.  Yes, I have spent more than my share of time in a p-mask.

I agree that the tears of a hippie are both sweet and satisfying, but I am less sanguine about hippie blood and malicious acts by agents of the state.

Not necessarily the most likely, just the first opinion posted and everyone seems to have started from that point.  IMO, it is most likely that it is a series of mistakes/unfortunate events with little or no evil intent. 

[MechAg94]

Because he has the right to be anywhere he damn pleases.  He also has the expectation of not being hit in the face with a projectile fired by rioting cops.  He further has the expectation of assistance from the police per their OWN DEPARTMENT'S policy.  Whether or not you agree with the protesters, they are exercising their first amendment rights to free association, political utterances and redress.

Russ

If it were a purely peaceful protest, sure.  However, I think it has been shown that it wasn't.  If you stand with a violent group, you are going to catch any backlash coming their way.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

this ^^^^  in spades

[roo_ster]

Not necessarily the most likely, just the first opinion posted and everyone seems to have started from that point.  IMO, it is most likely that it is a series of mistakes/unfortunate events with little or no evil intent. 

Actually, given the poster (Seenterman) and the target (CSI Occupy Wherever), my first reaction was "I love the smell of CS and patchouli in the evening.  Smells like...hilarity."

Plainly: I despise the Occupy* crowd to the point that I was hoping to see a righteous thumping of stinky indebted liberal arts majors.  That would please me on many levels. 

Well, there was a thumping, but it wasn't so righteous.  Frankly, if CS-ing the turd burglars isn't satisfying enough for the cop to the point he needs to pull Stupid LEO Tricks, he needs to move on career-wise or catch a round in the melon for the sake of us all.

To make it even more plain, for the slow readers: I had no problem getting the mob to disperse with CS.  If they got violent with the cops, I had no problem with the cops contributing to their education via a stout piece of hickory over the head.

What we got, instead, was:
1. Some fool needlessly shot a firearm into a crowd [37/40mm bloop gun with CS (maybe CS/FB) rounds].  Hand-tossed were obviously available would have been as effective, but didn't give Officer Friendly a chubby.
2. Another fool watching the mess and seeing a downed man, maliciously tosses a grenade at the folks trying to render aid.  Never mind the focus and body language of the first responders.

So, yeah, we deserve better.  Especially those of us who wanted a certain fellow as the GOP nominee in 2008 and were hoping Seenterman was wrong & hyperventilating(1):




(1)  Well, he was a bit overwrought what it it being a MARINE GULF WAR VETERAN!!!11. Like an ex-serviceman can't be an oxygen thief.  Especially a jarhead.  (I kid because I love...)

[KD5NRH]

This, to me, is simply an unfortunate combination of events. The ex-marine was injured (as we don't know how, I will not assign blame. It could have been the cops or the violent "protestors", intentionally or accidentally.) While he is down, the police have obscured vision with their masks, in the dark, with a rather inconspicuous clump of clothes. A group of protestors, without obscured vision see the man and charge towards the police to aid the ex-marine. The police officer responds to what appears to be a group moving towards the barricade and attempts to clear the area.

Even if he did see the downed guy, that area needed to be cleared before anybody could cross the line to remove him and render proper aid.  It's interesting that the videos never seem to include what happened between the lobbing of the grenade and the hippies bouncing the injured guy away like a sack of potatoes.  The cops may have been waiting for the crowd to back off enough so that they (or EMS) could advance their line and retrieve him properly with a backboard, but since the crowd kept pushing back in, they never got that opportunity.

[Harold Tuttle]

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[Fitz]

Lame that the "movement" plays up his service when he clearly was a disgruntled poopsickle.

THAT SAID...

still doesn't have relevance to the situation. Even if he was a gigantic turd, if he was truly intentionally *expletive deleted*ed with, that's wrong

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