New HVAC product for you homebuilders

[280plus]

http://www.robur.com/pag_gahp.jsp?idl=2

This, as long as it works as stated, is the best thing since sliced bread. It can take heat out of the air at 100% efficiency at -4*F. The warmer it is the higher the efficiency to 150+ %

It will not use natural gas or propane to heat until it is below -4 outdoor ambient. In the summer it will use Nat gas or propane to COOL.

It cools and heats water which is then pumped to wherever you want. Antifreeze is necessary though.

For service all you need is a gas line and  15 amp 220V for electrical. So for most of the winter, depending on where you are, you will heat your house using only ~ 8 amps when the unit runs and nothing else. No COMPRESSOR to draw heavy amps AND you can run your heat and cool with your averaged sized generator.

Downside: NOT CHEAP! but worth it in the long run...

I was quoted "Between $12,000 and $15,000" for a 5 ton unit which will probably do 2000-2500 sq ft. and that's MY cost without tax!

[brimic]

Sounds very interesting, but linky no worky.

[cfabe]

Will it also only heat at 150% or so efficency at more moderate temps, say, 40F? Compared to an electric heat pump which can do more like 300% from what I've read.

Is the 150% a limit of the gas absorbtion cycle compared to a freon-type refrigerant?

Very cool though, nice to see some innovations in this field. Price tag is way out of line for any home I'd be building for myself, but for a high-end home it could fit into the budget.

[K Frame]

The link doesn't work, but if this is an absorption system I REALLY have to wonder about the efficiency figures that they're quoting.

[280plus]

I tried linky and it worked foer me.  try "Robur" in google and its called an Absorption heat pump.

cfabe. Where are you deriving 300% from? My mechanical mind tells me if I can heat a house down to -4 ODT using only 8 amps I'm doing pretty good. But  I AM posting this for you all to pick it apart so don't be shy. I got the plans on my desk right now for a 7,000 sq ft home I, apparently, will be putting heat and A/C into. We WERE looking at SIX separate split system A/C s and hydro air but with this product I can make hot and cold water and ship it to separate airmovers around the house (air handlers or fan coils) AND heat certain floors as well. Another draw back, max water temp 140*F. I'm curious as to what the air temp coming off the coil is at that water temp. I got info coming.

Eliminates: (pardon me while I think "out loud" here)
Condensers
Heavy wiring to condensers
Line sets from condensers to air handlers (most in excess of 70 ft and up 3 stories)
Single coil A/H instead of double coil
Boilers in basement with combustion air supply issues
Hours of labor to run and connect all that crap,,,at least four 8 hour days worth, probably more.

[280plus]

I don't understand why the &^&&$%&@ !! link aint working!

[280plus]

I don't understand why the link isn't working. It's still working for me. try copy and paste?

Good Mike, I want to know why?

[280plus]

REVERSIBLE AIR COOLED GAS FIRED ABSORPTION HEAT PUMP

Air-Conditioning and Heating with unique Gas Fired High Efficiency unit.

The Reversible Absorption Heat Pump GAHP-AR is a gas fired unit supplying chilled water down to +3°C or hot water up to +60°C.

The same unit is suitable for heating or cooling by reversing the absorption cycle, using outside air for heat rejection in cooling mode and outdoor air as a heat source in heating mode. The gas efficiency at rating conditions is 140% in heating mode.

As a general efficiency feature in temperate climate area (about twice heating load versus cooling load) the gas savings during heating season will pay the gas for the cooling season.

The Robur GAHP-AR unit is specifically designed for outdoor installation only, thus do not take up valuable indoor space, nor require a boiler or cooler room and it operates down to -20ºC outdoor ambient in heating mode and up to 45ºC outdoor ambient in cooling mode.

[K Frame]

The more I read about this, the more it sounds like the old gas absorption refrigerators.

They were great, they lasted forever, they were absolutely quiet, and they did a good job of cooling things, but I'm sure that they weren't nearly as efficient as electric units.

[Brad Johnson]

Nothing new. My grandparents had a propane fueled 'fridge in the 40's. Just bigger scale.

Sounds an awful lot like a simple gas heat unit combined with a gas-fired compressor for cooling. The chilled/heated water concept has been used in commercial applications for decades.

BTW, try this link - http://www.robur.com/pag_gahp.jsp?idl=2

FWIW, 135% efficiency is thermodynamically impossible. If you read their page very, very carefully, you find that they are talking about a 135% increase in efficiency over comparable conventional units. It's a little misleading, but still darned impressive.

Brad

[K Frame]

This makes me wonder what kind of liquid/gas they're using for the absorption cycle.

Most systems use anhydrous ammonia, which is quite toxic if it gets loose.

[280plus]

Yea, I asked the rep about where they were getting the 150% from. He wasn't quite clear on it himself. I'm going to be looking for some answers when I get the package. My take is that
 -4 is the break even point to which they're assigning a value of 100% and anything above that is an increase over that "100%"

and YES!! ding ding ding... just like grandmas old propane refrigerator only bigger and with an attitude...

Ok, I made up the part about the attitude

Ammonia absorption is still in use but mostly for ice rinks and warehouse sized freezers. Ever drive a forklift in a freezer? S'fun. This absorption HP may just put them back on the map in the smaller scale markets. I'm impressed myself. I DO occasionally come across a residence with an absorption A/C system made by Robur / Servel. They make a good product.

[Fly320s]

I'm looking more towards solar and wind power for my future.  It's already a big deal in California; they are the third largest market for solar panels in the world.

[280plus]

Well, upon further research, I find that the 157% claimed is achieved at 77*F ODT with 86*F water out. Uh hello, I don't NEED to be heating when it's 77 out! And I need 140*F water out. They ARE playing with the numbers a bit.

So, according to their chart, at 45*F ODT with 140*F water outlet the efficiency rating is,,,

ODT*F     %EFF

59            142

50            137

45            131

35            119

19            111

14            105

5              100

-4             96

(ODT= Outdoor Temperature)

Or is it they're like shooters. Showing you the good targets but not the bad ones.  LOL...

Still, the numbers don't look that bad.

Anyhoo, their "efficiency rating" means that at 100% you are spending the same energy to heat your house with the heat pump as if you were burning gas.

Another term for it is COP (Coefficient of Performance). The point at which you are getting out the same energy as you are putting in. According to the chart for the application I'm looking at 5*F is my COP with this unit

A conventional HP has a much higher COP. Let's say ~ 35*ODT for a rough number. Each application has it's own unique COP unless you put identical equipment in identical houses.

[Brad Johnson]

Or is it they're like shooters. Showing you the good targets but not the bad ones.   LOL...

SHHHHHHHHHHH dammit! That's supposed to be a secret!

Brad