Author Topic: Calling all scientists and smart people  (Read 7025 times)

vaskidmark

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Calling all scientists and smart people
« on: July 29, 2011, 04:30:54 AM »
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/29_05.html

Quote
Nearly 50,000 tons of sludge at water treatment facilities has been found to contain radioactive cesium as the result of the accident at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. Over 1,500 tons is so contaminated that it cannot be buried for disposal.
....
The most contaminated sludge, with 89,697 becquerels per kilogram, was discovered at a water treatment facility in Koriyama City, Fukushima.

The ministry says 76 percent of the roughly 50,000 tons of radioactive sludge is being stored at water treatment plants and they have no ways to dispose of most of it.

It says more than 54,000 tons of additional sludge has not been checked for radioactive materials.

The ministry plans to study how to dispose of the radioactive sludge.


So I'm figuring if you can't bury it and let it decay for however long it takes, you probably can't a) burn it and b) shouldn't try to throw it into outer space towards the sun or some other such place.

Anybody want to help the ministry figure this one out?

stay safe.
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HankB

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2011, 05:59:58 AM »
Put it in checked baggage on Southwest Airlines - no human being will ever see it again.
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Fitz

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2011, 07:34:05 AM »
Afghanistan
Fitz

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230RN

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2011, 08:14:35 AM »
Store it in the Hiroshima memorial?


I'm not signing this one so nobody will know who posted it.
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Tallpine

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2011, 09:55:47 AM »
I'd say that they're just fukushimed :(
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MechAg94

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2011, 10:00:16 AM »
I assume they mean they can't put it in a landfill.  I was thinking that has to be someway they could dry it and solidify it before finding some stable place to store it or bury it. 
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roo_ster

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2011, 10:04:05 AM »
I assume they mean they can't put it in a landfill.  I was thinking that has to be someway they could dry it and solidify it before finding some stable place to store it or bury it. 

We have a winner!  The solids are going to be (likely) less than 1% the volume of the total. Or, find some way to precipitate the solids out and scrape the bottom of the tank.

Another answer would be an undersea pipe to the Marianas trench (or someplace REAL DEEP in the ocean).
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Nick1911

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2011, 10:22:32 AM »
Dry it out, assuming that none of the radioactive components are volatile enough to boil off at STP; then either store it as is, or mix with glass to stabilize and store.

vaskidmark

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2011, 10:28:19 AM »
Wastewater treatment plant "sludge" is almost always the dried stuff.  It's not the wet "goo" that goes in, but the stuff that's left over after the water has been cleaned and then the water in what is left over has been either evaporated (the really old days) or pressed out through mechanical filters, with the water then redirected through the treatment process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewage_sludge_treatment

Quote
Sludge disposal
When a liquid sludge is produced, further treatment may be required to make it suitable for final disposal. Typically, sludges are thickened (dewatered) to reduce the volumes transported off-site for disposal. Processes for reducing water content include lagooning in drying beds to produce a cake that can be applied to land or incinerated; pressing, where sludge is mechanically filtered, often through cloth screens to produce a firm cake; and centrifugation where the sludge is thickened by centrifugally separating the solid and liquid. Sludges can be disposed of by liquid injection to land or by disposal in a landfill. There are concerns about sludge incineration because of air pollutants in the emissions, along with the high cost of supplemental fuel, making this a less attractive and less commonly constructed means of sludge treatment and disposal. There is no process which completely eliminates the requirements for disposal of biosolids.

In South Australia, after centrifugation, the sludge is then completely dried by sunlight. The nutrient rich biosolids are then provided to farmers free-of-charge to use as a natural fertiliser. This method has reduced the amount of landfill generated by the process each year.

In the very large metropolitan areas of southern California inland communities return sewage sludge to the sewer system of communities at lower elevations to be reprocessed at a few very large treatment plants on the Pacific coast. This reduces the required size of interceptor sewers and allows local recycling of treated waste-water while retaining the economy of a single sludge processing facility.

As for sinking the stuff in the ocean - dude!  Haven't you seen enough movies to know that's where we get at least half of our mosters from?

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

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They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

roo_ster

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2011, 10:42:07 AM »
As for sinking the stuff in the ocean - dude!  Haven't you seen enough movies to know that's where we get at least half of our mosters from?

Japan needs a disaster it can shoot with laser beams.
Regards,

roo_ster

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seeker_two

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2011, 11:16:59 AM »
How far away is North Korea?....they're looking for nuclear materials....
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2011, 11:21:23 AM »
Well, I'm not a scientist, but I am really, really, really smart. So here I am.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2011, 01:03:53 PM »
We need some birdman in this thread...

However, in the meantime...

So we've got 38kbq per Kg of Cesium activity in this waste. Or a figure of roughly 38,000 Geiger counter clicks per Kg of this waste.

I'll assume this is Cesium 137.

If I did my math right, that's like 0.0032 mrem/hr or 3.2 thousandths of a milli-rem standing one foot away (30 cm actually) from a Kg of this sludge. (I'm only doing this for a [ballpark] 1.2 MeV gamma rays, alphas and betas... you can effectively ignore, unless ingested for most purposes. Does Cs 137 decay produce anything other than a gamma?)

I think it takes roughly 450 rem total not millirem to reach the LD/50 for humans, assuming no medical care after exposure. So to reach a 50/50 chance of dying, you'd have to hug a Kg of this sludge for something like 16 years.  =D

I could be completely wrong, since converting simple becquel counts into mrem or other dose/time units kind of has an apples/oranges problem to it. I might have picked the wrong Cesium isotope. Dropped decimal places, or some of my half-assed assumptions are too far off the reservation. (BIRDMAN... get over here, please...)

This stuff is "hot" in terms of extremely strict nuclear safety standards, but I'm guessing (with some really bad back of a napkin math) it ain't all that hot in terms of standing around during nuclear detonations, or inside the containment vessels at the actual moment of meltdown.
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Tallpine

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2011, 01:46:26 PM »
Quote
This stuff is "hot" in terms of extremely strict nuclear safety standards, but I'm guessing (with some really bad back of a napkin math) it ain't all that hot in terms of standing around during nuclear detonations, or inside the containment vessels at the actual moment of meltdown.

 =(  I was hoping for mutant deep sea monsters ...
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AJ Dual

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2011, 02:10:29 PM »
=(  I was hoping for mutant deep sea monsters ...

A quick perusal of Japanese animation and films tells me they're all busy assaulting underage schoolgirls at the moment.  [tinfoil]
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seeker_two

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2011, 02:33:08 PM »
A quick perusal of Japanese animation and films tells me they're all busy assaulting underage schoolgirls at the moment.  [tinfoil]

Pedo-zilla?....


http://www.cspro.lv/uploads/pictures/1300821682.jpg

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Brad Johnson

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2011, 03:39:51 PM »
IIRC cesium is refined by acidifying the the ore and recovering the cesium from the solution.  I wonder if they could do the same with the "sludge".

Brad
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birdman

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2011, 06:24:47 PM »
AJ, first off you are correct with your numbers...this level of radiation is basically background.  If you painted yourself with a kg of this, and danced around for 6 months, you would equal your normal background exposure.

Hmm.  Let's see here.  First, let's assume that the mean activity of the whole 1500 tons is 10% of the peak, so we have the most radioactive part at 90kbq/kg, and the mean at 9kbq/kg.  That gives us 13.5 GBq of activity (0.3 curies) total.  Given that this sludge probably has a density of about 2g/cc (dirt basically), it's 750 cubic meters of sludge, or an activity of (rounding) 18 MBq/m3

Now, to run the numbers.  Assuming it's Cs-137, the dose rate at a meter is 0.0087 mrem/hr/MBq.

A sphere, 1m thick, encasing a person, would contain roughly 72 MBq, yielding 0.6mrem per hour.  That means, to reach the maximum yearly occupational dose, you would have to live in the sludge-ball for a year.  In other words, unless you ate it (it is probably nasty, yet still wouldn't hurt you, radiologically speaking), you might as well just live on it.

BTW, the potassium in a human being has about 5kBq, (75Bq/kg) so this sludge is roughly 120 times as radioactive as a newborn baby on a pound for pound basis.

(I'm going to use 300 Bq as a "baby-equivalent-activity" unit from now on)

Or, if you like it this way, the 50 million residents of Japan contain 250 GBq of potassium, or nearly 19 times as much as this sludge.  So, really, if you want to dispose of it, just give a lucky 5% of the population a souvenir "fukushima sludge keepsake" with 300g of the mud, and done. 

So if having 3oz of this around is the equivalent of carrying triplets to term (radiologically), and the PEOPLE that live in the area are more radioactive than the sludge...why do we care?

birdman

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2011, 07:17:40 PM »
Actually AJ, you did drop a decimal I think.
0.0032 mrem/hr yields 450 rem in 16 thousand years, not 16.  And since LD50 is based on prompt dose, my calcs showing basically 1kg = 2x ambient means you will likely have zero lifetime effects.

Azrael256

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2011, 07:57:02 PM »
Bottle it and sell it.  It can't be worse than Mountain Dew.

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2011, 08:22:58 PM »
I'm thinking "Energy Drink" here.  ;)
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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2011, 10:23:04 PM »
I would just dump it in the ocean.
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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2011, 11:27:22 PM »
They could just put it in sheet rock and sell it cheap to US contractors. Oh wait they already did that with the sulfuric acid.
http://consumerist.com/2009/01/chinese-poison-drywall-creates-sulfuric-acid-inside-homes.html
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2011, 12:17:47 AM »
Bottle it and sell it.  It can't be worse than Mountain Dew.

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Re: Calling all scientists and smart people
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2011, 12:21:44 AM »
I would just dump it in the ocean.

Just what I was thinking.  Does that make us smart?
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