Vegas strip mass shooting!

[TommyGunn]

Not a very smart move. I have a feeling that the majority of their membership may think bump stocks are as stupid as all get out, but still would fight to keep them legal.

This is pretty much where I am.   Bumpstocks are a silly novelty useful for wasting ammo.   I don't want them banned,  but I'm pretty much reconciled to them being banned,  which is I guess where I differ.
What concerns me more, really, is that once again a tragedy and it's resultant emotions are being used to drive lawmaking,  not cool,  collected, logical thought.

[French G.]

On return fire, the ROE is now different. No longer a barricaded down on his luck domestic violence loon that the police sniper can plink off rather than starve out. On sep 10 2001 nobody thought ramming a passenger jet with an F-16 was an acceptable tactic, but the next day some chick was headed off to do it.

It's an area target, not a point target. I am sure that many officers are not familiar with their carbine at that range. 500 yards, or closer since the cops don't necessarily appear right in the target zone. Target is elevated so holdover is reduced. A typical 1x optic zeroed at 25/300ish is going to be pretty ballpark. Hose it. If fortune is on your side a patrol cop is a leftover army or USMC troop.

[DittoHead]

Paddock paid $600 for a Ruger American .308 bolt-action rifle with an 18-inch barrel and four round capacity

  I paid half that for mine!

Also, I'm in the camp that think shooting back in that situation is dumb/crazy.

[Scout26]

Does anyone know if there's some evidence he may have targeted Lollapalooza, other than the room location and timing? Or is that enough? Is Lollapalooza Chicago that big, that no one would get one of those rooms by coincidence?

Big music festival and he apparently requested a room with a view of Grant Park, where it would be happening.   64 year olds generally aren't the target audience.  Here are some of the acts:  https://www.lollapalooza.com/lineup/

Out of 110, I recognize three.  And I've only knowingly heard the music of two, Lorde, and Blink-182 .  (Chance the Rapper is big for donating his winnings of some show contest to the Chicago Public Schools.  I've never heard one of his "songs", as I don't listen to (c)Rap.  So I'd guess that a 64 year old retired accountant is probably not a big (c)Rap aficionado.

That to me shows that he was planning to go for the high score.  It just may have turn out that having a big music fest at a more local place changed his plans.   I can only imagine the anti-gunners stuttering if he had done his evil deed in Chicago.
 

[Hawkmoon]

But does the contract under which Satan holds his soul actually have terms preventing cops from learning to do the same, or is it possible your friend just can't recite the plot of every episode of Game of Thrones and every HS/college/pro football game played during the times he "ain't got time to practice?"

And, unless there was reason to believe the guy had duct taped pregnant nuns to every inch of the room except where he was shooting out of, then the safe target area isn't human torso sized, it's roughly 8' high and (guessing by the room map) 50+ feet wide.  Yes, you need better than that to kill him, but just keeping him distracted would save lives.  Even Whitman resorted to shooting through the scuppers once there was meaningful return fire.  No telling how many people didn't get shot because they weren't on the limited field of fire that offered him. The Vegas shooter wouldn't have had any real cover to get behind.

I'm going to assume that you may be serious, that you just might -- possibly -- not be trolling, so I'll dignify this with a response.

He's out in some farmer's field, shooting at ground hogs. There are no occupied hotel rooms above, below, or to either side of his line of fire. The distance is known, it's daylight, his scope is zeroed for 500 yards, and he's not taking incoming fire so his adrenaline isn't sky high. And, of course, he's shooting a rifle that was built and set up specifically for long-range, precision shooting -- not an AR-15 patrol carbine with a 1x holographic sight. There is a difference.

The Texas Tower sniper is not an appropriate comparison. Yes, civilians with rifles eventually pinned him down. But he was up on the tower by himself, he wasn't surrounded by occupied hotel rooms. "Just keeping him distracted" is suppressive fire. Suppressive fire is area fire, not point fire. The notion of inviting deaths of guests in the hotel as "collateral damage" in the hope that the suppressive fire might temporarily neutralize the shooter is about the craziest thing I've ever encountered on the Internet. Thank God the Las Vegas police don't spend too much time playing Call of Duty.

[Hawkmoon]

Follow-up question: Did "ACP" originally describe the weapon, or the cartridge? My 1911 shoots .45 Auto.  

Both.

When the 1911 was new, "auto-loading" pistols were referred to as "automatic" pistols. It meant "auto-loading," but back then a machine gun was a "machine gun," and the term "full-auto" to describe a machine gun hadn't been invented.

[Fly320s]

Big music festival and he apparently requested a room with a view of Grant Park, where it would be happening.   64 year olds generally aren't the target audience.  Here are some of the acts:  https://www.lollapalooza.com/lineup/

Out of 110, I recognize three.  And I've only knowingly heard the music of two, Lorde, and Blink-182 .  (Chance the Rapper is big for donating his winnings of some show contest to the Chicago Public Schools.  I've never heard one of his "songs", as I don't listen to (c)Rap.  So I'd guess that a 64 year old retired accountant is probably not a big (c)Rap aficionado.

That to me shows that he was planning to go for the high score.  It just may have turn out that having a big music fest at a more local place changed his plans.   I can only imagine the anti-gunners stuttering if he had done his evil deed in Chicago.
 

I'm confused.  Are you talking about the Vegas mass murderer or is this another guy? 

[RoadKingLarry]

Same nutjob, different venue.

[freakazoid]

The Texas Tower sniper is not an appropriate comparison. Yes, civilians with rifles eventually pinned him down. But he was up on the tower by himself, he wasn't surrounded by occupied hotel rooms. "Just keeping him distracted" is suppressive fire. Suppressive fire is area fire, not point fire. The notion of inviting deaths of guests in the hotel as "collateral damage" in the hope that the suppressive fire might temporarily neutralize the shooter is about the craziest thing I've ever encountered on the Internet. Thank God the Las Vegas police don't spend too much time playing Call of Duty.

He wasn't surrounded by hotel rooms, he was surrounded by a campus and city. They shot rounds into the air having no idea where they were going to land. Thank God those idiots didn't hit anyone...

[Scout26]

I'm confused.  Are you talking about the Vegas mass murderer or is this another guy? 

Same nutjob.  Booked a room for first weekend in August, as same time as a different large music festival.  Had reserved a room with a view of Grant Park, where the festival would be occurring.  However, he never checked in.    My guess is that he wanted to go out as the biggest mass murderer in US History.  But perhaps he had a half-assed plan to make an escape and flee the country, although the Philippines does, IIRC, have an extradition treaty with the US.  And since he booked the room in his name, it would have taken all of about 10 seconds to track him to PI, and request extradition.
 
Or not.   Interesting is that this guy is a cypher, a zero, a nobody.   Nobody can come up with anything other: Accountant, Gambler, and Amateur Pilot, never interacted with anyone very much.  GF is a Filipino national.  He bought a bunch of guns legally, jumping through all the 4473 and NICS hoops without  even a blip.  No prior interaction with LE, other then Father being on the FBI 10 Most Wanted at one point, when he was very young.  No on-line or social presence.  /pol/ thinks they have one video of him at a Resistance/Antifa wearing a Birth Canal hat.  No note, no manifesto, no nothing.  No discernible motive.  Yet, he clearly did some planning and wanted to make a statement.

[freakazoid]

I heard he tried to book a room at some hotel that would of overlooked some concert venue but the rooms were all booked, was that the Lollapalooza?
Is his girlfriend, or she his wife?, a Filipino national? I have also read she is Australian. There is so much misinformation and stuff out on this this is crazy.

[grampster]

I owned that 2nd Colt in the pics above in .380.  I carried that as a backup pistol to my S&W 38 Police Special revolver in the 60's.  Iirc, I traded it for something I don't remember back in the 60's.  Maybe I traded a Browning mouse gun in .25 for it with a Vice detective.

[RoadKingLarry]

I heard he tried to book a room at some hotel that would of overlooked some concert venue but the rooms were all booked, was that the Lollapalooza?
Is his girlfriend, or she his wife?, a Filipino national? I have also read she is Australian. There is so much misinformation and stuff out on this this is crazy.

The two of them ae both pushing the WTF-O-Meter.
She has multiple names in use in LV and California, multiple marriages, a couple concurrent.
Shooter has zero digital foot print, has apparently lived a "double life" that none of his family know anything about and is a multimillionaire with no real direct, upfront source of income.
Holywierd couldn't write this script, they don't have enough imagination.

[Scout26]

I heard he tried to book a room at some hotel that would of overlooked some concert venue but the rooms were all booked, was that the Lollapalooza?
Is his girlfriend, or she his wife?, a Filipino national? I have also read she is Australian. There is so much misinformation and stuff out on this this is crazy.

Scroll back a bit.  Booked a room in the Blackstone hotel for 2-4 Aug 2017, requested a room overlooking Grant Park in Chicago.  Where the Lalapalooza Music Festival would be taking place during that time.  Another music festival with tens of thousands of attendees.  I'm guessing that the range would have been a bit further then ~500 meters he had a Mandalay Bay for the Route 91 Harvest Festival.   If you look at Google Maps you can see that the Blackstone isn't nearly as tall (21 stories) and I can't remember if Lalapalooza is at the Pritzker Pavilion or the Petrillo Band Shell, but both are enclosed with trees and at least 800 yards as the crow flies to the closest one.  

Again, my guess is he wanted High Score.

Plus there's entire driving 1/2 across the country to get there, vs roughly an hour from his home.  

[Perd Hapley]

Both.

When the 1911 was new, "auto-loading" pistols were referred to as "automatic" pistols. It meant "auto-loading," but back then a machine gun was a "machine gun," and the term "full-auto" to describe a machine gun hadn't been invented.

The point is that "automatic" refers to the gun's operation. When the rounds are called "automatic" or "ACP," it only's because they're named after the gun. It's not because there's something about them that causes the gun to be fully automatic like a machine gun, as the CBS report implies.

[Perd Hapley]

Big music festival and he apparently requested a room with a view of Grant Park, where it would be happening.   64 year olds generally aren't the target audience.  Here are some of the acts:  https://www.lollapalooza.com/lineup/

Unlike you ancient dudes who can't spell Lollapalooza, I actually do know what it is.    I didn't realize it was only a Chicago thing now.* They used to tour here, and other cities in the U.S. Since he's not of my generation (and the soulless creep probably didn't enjoy that rather delightful music called "rap") it's also likely he'd never heard of Lollapalooza. It's still possible he just wanted a room with a pleasant view of the park. On the other hand, if Chicago was not his usual hang-out, and no other reason emerges for him being there, then I'd agree it looks like he was targeting Lollapalooza.




*Except for its overseas venues.

[MechAg94]

He wasn't surrounded by hotel rooms, he was surrounded by a campus and city. They shot rounds into the air having no idea where they were going to land. Thank God those idiots didn't hit anyone...

In the Austin incident, they suppressed fire from a man who was actively shooting people and took the risk that a miss "might" come down somewhere and harm someone.  They prevented further deaths by the accounts I have read as the man wasn't able to take easy aimed shots off the roof after that.  It bought time for others to enter the tower and take him out.

If the police there 1) had the rifles capable of putting rounds on target and 2) he was still actively shooting and 3) they knew where he was shooting from, I would hope they would try especially if that was the only way to stop him.  From what we have been told, as soon as he was challenged by police, he shot himself.  This seems to happen with a lot of these mass shooters.  And I would point out that if police did take shots at him, the wouldn't be doing it from 500 yards away.  It would still not be an easy shot from the ground, but the police wouldn't need to fire from the concert area.  I agree that shooting 9mm or 45 ACP from the concert area would not be good, but I am sure there were closer locations a rifleman could shoot from and be effective.  

I have not heard if anyone on the ground knew which window the gunfire was coming from before police entered the hotel so I am not sure if any of this is relevant.  Maybe one of you has heard something different.  

[MechAg94]

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20171005/nras-wayne-lapierre-and-chris-cox-issue-joint-statement

This link is to the statement the NRA issued.  I don't think they intended it to sound like they were giving in on outlawing bump stocks, but the sentence about inviting new regulations seems to do that. 

[AJ Dual]

Unlike you ancient dudes who can't spell Lollapalooza, I actually do know what it is.    I didn't realize it was only a Chicago thing now.* They used to tour here, and other cities in the U.S. Since he's not of my generation (and the soulless creep probably didn't enjoy that rather delightful music called "rap") it's also likely he'd never heard of Lollapalooza. It's still possible he just wanted a room with a pleasant view of the park. On the other hand, if Chicago was not his usual hang-out, and no other reason emerges for him being there, then I'd agree it looks like he was targeting Lollapalooza.




*Except for its overseas venues.

One of the Obama girls was in attendance at Lollapalooza, with commensurate SS protection. I'm not sure how far out they push their perimeter for something like that, when POTUS or some of the First Family is not speaking, just "attending", but the SS manning rooftops, and examining any high buildings , windows or vantage points is a pretty common procedure for them. Of course, it could easily be simple blind luck on Paddock's part that he didn't show for it.

[Angel Eyes]

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20171005/nras-wayne-lapierre-and-chris-cox-issue-joint-statement

This link is to the statement the NRA issued.  I don't think they intended it to sound like they were giving in on outlawing bump stocks, but the sentence about inviting new regulations seems to do that.  

I read it as an attempt to avoid legislation.  If the BATFE regulates/bans bump stocks, there is less opportunity for Congress to do so (and possibly tack on other restrictions in the process).

[AJ Dual]

I read it as an attempt to avoid legislation.  If the BATFE regulates/bans bump stocks, there is less opportunity on Congress to do so (and possibly tack on other restrictions in the process).

Looking at how they worked National Reciprocity into Dana Loesch's statement at the end makes me think they're trying to set up the GOP for a quid-pro-quo to get that passed in trade.

Granted, it would be even nicer to just say "Eff you... We're keeping bumpstocks. AND we're passing the HPA, Nat. Recip., and doing away with the Hughes Amendment. Deal with it." However if wishes were fishes, we'd all cast nets.

[MechAg94]

I was looking at a youtube thing on the shooting.  It was CNN, but it said the guy fired 200 or so rounds through the door and down the hallway when cops initially approached where he was.  It was apparently at that point he stopped firing on the crowds.  They were trying to talk about whether he planned to escape or not.  The person interviewed said he did.

I finally saw the picture of the guns in the room.  That one rifle on the floor with the slide-fire stock had a 100 round Surefire mag.  It is too long to be the 60 round.  The 60 rounder isn't much longer in overall length than a 30 round mag.  The 100 round mag is a good bit longer. 

[Hawkmoon]

The point is that "automatic" refers to the gun's operation. When the rounds are called "automatic" or "ACP," it only's because they're named after the gun. It's not because there's something about them that causes the gun to be fully automatic like a machine gun, as the CBS report implies.

Correct. The notion of an "automatic round" is ludicrous. A truly automatic round would be exceptionally dangerous. How could you get it out of the box without it going off? How would the factory get it into the box without it going off? An "automatic round" either wouldn't need a gun, or would shoot itself as soon as it's put in a gun.

I suppose all those ACP cartridges should be renamed, but somehow .45SACP just doesn't ring my chimes.

[AJ Dual]

I finally saw the picture of the guns in the room.  That one rifle on the floor with the slide-fire stock had a 100 round Surefire mag.  It is too long to be the 60 round.  The 60 rounder isn't much longer in overall length than a 30 round mag.  The 100 round mag is a good bit longer.  

I agree, they all look like 100 round Surefires to me.

Perhaps this comes too close to the APS prohibition on "grave dancing", but I'm really hoping that he went on the majority of his gun buying spree after Nov. 2nd 2016 and/or whatever motives he had that eventually come out of the investigation to be Lefty or Trump Derangement Syndrome.

The fact he was scoping out Lollapalooza in Chicago last summer belies that theory... OTOH, People were already getting angry on the left over how Bernie was being treated by the DNC in the primary process. Or maybe he did find out Malia Obama would be there and didn't target that because of his ideological reasons...

I'm of the mind that his motivations are going to be either "just plain evil/crazy" and the investigating LEA's honestly don't know, or his motivations were "Lefty" in nature. Because I think the one thing we can all be certain of, is if his motivations were at all Right-wing, we'd have heard about it already, and on the top of every hour since.  Especially considering someone was willing to risk their career to leak the crime scene and suicide photos, just passing along "He hated Democrats" etc. is so much easier. And that makes me think if the motive is known, or strongly suspected, it's been leaked too, but the nominal Left bias of the MSM means they're sitting on it.

[Perd Hapley]

I read it as an attempt to avoid legislation.  If the BATFE regulates/bans bump stocks, there is less opportunity for Congress to do so (and possibly tack on other restrictions in the process).

That's what I've been thinking. It would be easier to reverse, and a way for Trump and the NRA to get something they can point to, to show they're not actually uncaring, or unwilling to compromise. They may be thinking it will take some of the urgency and relevance away from Feinstein and friends. Whether those last two are even worth the effort is for us to argue endlessly about.)

FTR, I'm all for deregulating automatics.