Author Topic: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives  (Read 13165 times)

Gowen

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TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« on: February 17, 2010, 09:18:40 PM »
Does this mean that if you have been shooting recently, the gunpowder residue will stand you out?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/02/17/tsa.hands.swabbing/index.html?hpt=T1

TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
By Jeanne Meserve and Mike M. Ahlers, CNN
February 17, 2010 4:54 p.m. EST


Washington (CNN) -- To the list of instructions you hear at airport checkpoints, add this: "Put your palms forward, please."

The Transportation Security Administration soon will begin randomly swabbing passengers' hands at checkpoints and airport gates to test them for traces of explosives.

Previously, screeners swabbed some carry-on luggage and other objects as they searched for the needle in the security haystack -- components of terrorist bombs in an endless stream of luggage.

But after the Christmas Day attempted bombing of Northwest Flight 253 over Detroit, Michigan, the TSA began a program of swabbing passengers' hands, which could be contaminated by explosive materials, experts say. The TSA will greatly expand the swabbing in the coming weeks, the agency said.

"The point is to make sure that the air environment is a safe environment," Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano told CNN. "We know that al Qaeda [and other] terrorists continue to think of aviation as a way to attack the United States. One way we keep it safe is by new technology [and] random use of different types of technology."

Security experts consulted by CNN said swabbing hands is a good move, and privacy advocates said they support the new swabbing protocols, provided the agency tests only for security-related objects and does not discriminate when it selects people to be tested.

It's a "very good idea," said security expert Tony Fainberg. TSA screeners currently swab luggage handles and parts of bags that are likely be contaminated by human hands, he said, and swabbing a person's hands increases the chances of finding explosive materials. "Looking at the hands means you will probably get a better dose," he said.

Under the new protocols, tests will be conducted at various locations -- including in checkpoint lines, during the screening process and at gates. Newer, more portable machines make it easier to conduct tests away from fixed locations such as the checkpoint.

The TSA has more than 7,000 explosive trace detection (ETD) machines and has purchased 400 additional units with $16 million in federal stimulus money. The president's fiscal 2011 budget calls for $60 million to purchase approximately 800 portable ETD machines.

Napolitano said the tests will not significantly increase wait times at airport checkpoints.

The American Civil Liberties Union has "always supported explosive detection as a good form of security that doesn't really invade privacy," said Jay Stanley, an attorney and privacy expert with the organization.

Stanley said the ACLU is chiefly concerned that the TSA does not discriminate when selecting people for enhanced screening -- something the agency said it does not do -- and that it treat people with dignity.

"We would not want to see it implemented in a discriminatory fashion, for example, in a disproportionate way against Muslims and Arabs or, for example, people with red hair or anything else. Security experts from across the spectrum will tell you that that's not just unfair and unjust and not the American way, it's also a terrible way to do security," Stanley said.

Swabbing also should not be used to test for nonsecurity-related contraband, such as drugs, he said. "Under the Constitution, searches in airports are only for the purpose of protecting the security of airline transportation; they are not general law enforcement stops. And so it wouldn't be permissible for the government to use these trace portal detectors to look for drugs," Stanley said.

The TSA said the machines test only for explosives. It declined to specify which explosives, citing security reasons.

Because some legal substances -- such as fertilizers and heart medicines -- can result in "false positives," Stanley said the ACLU also wants to ensure that people who test positive be treated respectfully.

"It's important that the government treat people who do show up as a positive -- fairly and with dignity -- and not parade them off in handcuffs and treat them as terrorists, but do rational things to investigate what the problem might be," he said.

But swabbing hands does not, by itself, raise civil liberty problems, Stanley said. "There's really not a big privacy interest at stake here," he said. "They are basically looking for particles of explosives, which is not something that people normally have."
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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 09:31:10 PM »
We're getting closer to "Fly Naked !!  Now with free Proctology Exams !!!"    :police: [tinfoil] :facepalm: =|
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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2010, 10:23:33 PM »
Quote
The TSA has more than 7,000 explosive trace detection (ETD) machines and has purchased 400 additional units with $16 million in federal stimulus money.
Wait, what?!? :O

Hand-swabbing I have no problem with, but Federal agencies got stimulus money?  =(
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French G.

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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2010, 10:44:01 PM »
Spray bottle+liquid miracle gro+nearest thing to checkpoint that everyone touches=instant security theater win!

I'm guessing the swabs would pick up on the nitrogen. If the swabbing and sniffing got large scale one wannabe jihadi could probably close down an airport with a little baggie of smokeless powder and a hole in his pocket. Just wander around the unsecure side, sprinkling powder down your leg and into the carpet. Many hapless people's shoes trigger sniffer.
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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2010, 10:45:03 PM »
Wait, what?!? :O

Hand-swabbing I have no problem with, but Federal agencies got stimulus money?  =(

The financial equivalent of touching oneself? Now that's stimulating!
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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2010, 11:38:00 PM »
Quote
Hand-swabbing I have no problem with, but Federal agencies got stimulus money?

Oh yeah, federal agencies got stimulus money.
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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 01:08:08 AM »
Quote
Does this mean that if you have been shooting recently, the gunpowder residue will stand you out?
Maybe. Do you reload your ammo with semtex?  :P

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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 08:52:20 AM »
Maybe. Do you reload your ammo with semtex?  :P

Oh man, I bet that'd be a real hot load.  Hold my beer... :P

HankB

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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 08:58:21 AM »
I just read that some guy in, IIRC, Britain was "detained" and threatened with prosecution for a time because explosive residue was detected on his hands.

The amount was nanograms, easily picked up by touching a doorknob, hand rail, or something else that someone who works with explosives had touched.

If even microscopic trace amounts of an illicit substance are grounds for possible arrest and prosecution, we're all at risk . . . after all, isn't something like 90% of the paper money in circulation contaminated with miniscule amounts of cocain?
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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 02:23:23 PM »
How I want to spike the men's rooms with Miracle Grow in the soap dispensers.

Last month when I flew from Indy to Dallas for gun skul TSA in Dallas swabbed down my pistol case but nothing raised an alarm even though I had been shooting for 3 solid days.
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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2010, 02:27:38 PM »
Last month when I flew from Indy to Dallas for gun skul TSA in Dallas swabbed down my pistol case but nothing raised an alarm even though I had been shooting for 3 solid days.

Because I bet it's looking for 2,3-dimethyl-2,3-dinitrobutane, ethylene glycol dinitrate, ortho-mononitrotoluene (o-MNT), or para-mononitrotoluene (p-MNT).
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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2010, 03:48:34 PM »
Quote
I just read that some guy in, IIRC, Britain was "detained" and threatened with prosecution for a time because explosive residue was detected on his hands.
Isn't that a typical police tactic - threatening people with ridiculous penalties if they don't talk?
Swab a guy's bag or hands, he's got explodey powder on his person. You take him back to see why he has explodey powder on his hands. Threaten him with prosecution, Guantanamo, etc to make sure he tells all he knows.

Oh man, I bet that'd be a real hot load.  Hold my beer... :P
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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 06:00:43 PM »
:O :O :O :O :O, me'sa drive [tinfoil]

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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2010, 08:01:52 PM »
Maybe. Do you reload your ammo with semtex?  :P

Um, maybe, but you are assuming that the underwear bombers is using semtex.  You can fit a lot of smokeless in the escape hatch of a pair of tightie whities. =D
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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2010, 08:04:29 PM »
I just read that some guy in, IIRC, Britain was "detained" and threatened with prosecution for a time because explosive residue was detected on his hands.

The amount was nanograms, easily picked up by touching a doorknob, hand rail, or something else that someone who works with explosives had touched.

If even microscopic trace amounts of an illicit substance are grounds for possible arrest and prosecution, we're all at risk . . . after all, isn't something like 90% of the paper money in circulation contaminated with miniscule amounts of cocain?

go see the movie "in the name of the father" for real life example  or the book was" proved innocent"

guy did 15 years  the "trace elements" the lab found were the nitrates off fresh sausage
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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2010, 08:16:56 PM »
Um, maybe, but you are assuming that the underwear bombers is using semtex.  You can fit a lot of smokeless in the escape hatch of a pair of tightie whities. =D
:laugh:
I'm guessing they're swabbing for semtex 'cuz of the Lockerbie bombing being the only successful case of airplane bombing that I can recall. And isn't smokeless a pretty rotten explosive?
Now, black powder might get you in trouble.

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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2010, 01:50:10 AM »
Spray bottle+liquid miracle gro+nearest thing to checkpoint that everyone touches=instant security theater win!

I'm guessing the swabs would pick up on the nitrogen. If the swabbing and sniffing got large scale one wannabe jihadi could probably close down an airport with a little baggie of smokeless powder and a hole in his pocket. Just wander around the unsecure side, sprinkling powder down your leg and into the carpet. Many hapless people's shoes trigger sniffer.

Since the resident screeners on Flyertalk's Travel SAfety & Security forum have pretty well confirmed that the analyzers will alarm on glycerin (a component in most soaps, hand lotions and creams, etc., as well as nitroglycerin), you don't even need any nefarious schemes to shut things down - the system is *DESIGNED* to do so itself.  :facepalm:

Frakking MORONS.

Also - they won't use a fresh swab for you unless you ask them to.  They'll use the same one over and over and over and over again until it finally alarms on them, never imagining that tiny amounts of detectable materials will build up on the swab with each use until it reaches the alarm threshold.  As far as I'm concerned, they can use a fresh swab for each item or body part they want to test, if I get selected, even if that means they use up a whole box of swabs testing me and my stuff.  And they get to change their gloves before doing any of it, too (and they won't do THAT unless you request it, either).

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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2010, 03:10:09 AM »
Because I bet it's looking for 2,3-dimethyl-2,3-dinitrobutane, ethylene glycol dinitrate, ortho-mononitrotoluene (o-MNT), or para-mononitrotoluene (p-MNT).

So what's the false-positive rate on the test, and what are the usual causes of false positives?

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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2010, 08:17:42 AM »
Saw a story they they'll be wandering around selecting random people outside the security area to swab.

Lots of people see off the family member who's the actual traveler . . . suppose they select someone who's not traveling to test.

And that person declines.

What are they going to do - keep him off the plane that he wasn't going on anyway?
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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2010, 08:22:50 AM »
Saw a story they they'll be wandering around selecting random people outside the security area to swab.

Lots of people see off the family member who's the actual traveler . . . suppose they select someone who's not traveling to test.

And that person declines.

What are they going to do - keep him off the plane that he wasn't going on anyway?

Detainment under patriot act.  yeah, fun! 
I promise you though, if they ask to swab my hands when I'm there to pick up someone, the answer will be NO.
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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2010, 09:01:38 AM »
no disrespect intended and i understand the legal right to say no.  but why? takes only a second.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2010, 09:31:14 AM »
So what's the false-positive rate on the test, and what are the usual causes of false positives?

Assuming they're not retards and buy the right equipment.  Pretty low.  Those are chemical tagging agents for explosives.  They're not intended to be used for any other purpose for that very reason.  Very easy to detect, again, as that is their intended purpose.  Doesn't cover "homemade" stuff, but that historically, that stuff is more dangerous to the user than anyone else.

If they're morons and testing for nitrites/glycerin, false positive rate will be through the roof as both are used in tons of stuff.  Sure, you'd theoretically catch the homemade stuff, but you'd be swamped with ten thousand false positives for every one legit catch. 
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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2010, 09:35:54 AM »
Assuming they're not retards and buy the right equipment.  Pretty low.  Those are chemical tagging agents for explosives.  They're not intended to be used for any other purpose for that very reason.  Very easy to detect, again, as that is their intended purpose.  Doesn't cover "homemade" stuff, but that historically, that stuff is more dangerous to the user than anyone else.

You know, I'd be willing to bet that, even if they can't make it themselves, terrorists could find a lab out there that would provide them with fresh, high quality unmarked boom juice.


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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2010, 10:13:33 AM »
Assuming they're not retards and buy the right equipment.  Pretty low.  Those are chemical tagging agents for explosives.  They're not intended to be used for any other purpose for that very reason.  Very easy to detect, again, as that is their intended purpose.  Doesn't cover "homemade" stuff, but that historically, that stuff is more dangerous to the user than anyone else.

If they're morons and testing for nitrites/glycerin, false positive rate will be through the roof as both are used in tons of stuff.  Sure, you'd theoretically catch the homemade stuff, but you'd be swamped with ten thousand false positives for every one legit catch. 

We're talking about the TSA and the .gov, so I'll go with #2.
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Re: TSA to swab airline passengers' hands in search for explosives
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2010, 10:51:20 AM »
no disrespect intended and i understand the legal right to say no.  but why? takes only a second.

For me, two reasons.

1st. Philosophical.  We as citizens need to remind the gov every now and then that they don't get to do whatever they want.  The more a particular agency seems to think, or act like, they have no checks, the more I want to check them just out of principal.  I probably wouldn't give an ATF agent directions to the bathroom without a subpoena.  TSA is another of those agencies that needs to be kept closely in check, or they go out and break things off airplanes.

2nd. Practical.  If I'm not goinginto the sterile area at an airport, I don't take off my gun.  Chances are low, but If I did get a false positive (or a real positive for that matter, the Army lets me play with cool stuff every now and then), and the drag me off somewhere, and find a loaded, concealed pistol, how long do you think it'll take me to explain to the securers of our Homeland that no really, it's legal, they can let me go now.