Air raid!

[MicroBalrog]

About 2 hours ago, a radio report said that Israeli tanks and infantry were on the move into Gaza.

Apparently they already invaded.

[Manedwolf]

What are infantry going to do, besides run into booby traps?

There's already reports that Hamas seems to be setting up traps, probably even in buildings occupied by Palis.

As their spokesperson even said, they embrace death as the West embraces life.

They should have just pounded harder from the air, I think.

[MicroBalrog]

They should have just pounded harder from the air, I think.

The general public, the opposition politicians, and the Army generals all wanted a ground invasion.

I'm not sure what good it will do, but there you have it.

[Manedwolf]

The general public, the opposition politicians, and the Army generals all wanted a ground invasion.

I'm not sure what good it will do, but there you have it.

When you are fighting an enemy so evil that they will happily set up a tripwire in a kindergarten and use children as the bait, I'm not sure what good it will do, either.

[Manedwolf]

Oh, yeah, and don't bother with CNN. The person they have reporting is Christiane "I won't admit I converted to Islam yet" Amanpour, doing her usual shtick about how amazing Muslims are and how mean the Christians and Joooz are being, and how this attack on "the dense civilian areas of Gaza" is all out of proportion with a few rockets.

She's the one who did that reprehensible "Holy Warriors" series. That did its best to show how Islamic terrorists were no worse than evil bad nasty Jewish and Christian "violent" people that there were just as many of.

I'm surprised she's not wearing her hijab she loves to wear.

[Tallpine]

Gaza is what - 2 miles by 10 miles ?

Why can't they just line up a bunch of D-10 bulldozers and start from one end to the other ? 

[agricola]

There is some doubt that the "truck being loaded with Grad rockets" was, in fact, being loaded with Grad rockets - which is why the video may have been taken down:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7809371.stm

[Manedwolf]

There is some doubt that the "truck being loaded with Grad rockets" was, in fact, being loaded with Grad rockets - which is why the video may have been taken down:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7809371.stm

Oxygen clinders. Right.

And the site appears to have been used to store weapons. If I saw an NV closeup of cylindrical objects being loaded on a truck from a site used to store weapons, I'd hit it too.

One of the "apartment buildings" they hit had a hell of a lot of secondary explosions, too. BBC is just a little slanted toward "that" side.

[agricola]

Oh, yeah, and don't bother with CNN. The person they have reporting is Christiane "I won't admit I converted to Islam yet" Amanpour, doing her usual shtick about how amazing Muslims are and how mean the Christians and Joooz are being, and how this attack on "the dense civilian areas of Gaza" is all out of proportion with a few rockets.

She's the one who did that reprehensible "Holy Warriors" series. That did its best to show how Islamic terrorists were no worse than evil bad nasty Jewish and Christian "violent" people that there were just as many of.

I'm surprised she's not wearing her hijab she loves to wear.

To be fair, I cannot think of a similar Muslim siege that was as bad as what the First Crusade did to Jerusalem.  That said, I cant think of a siege that was as bad as what Hulagu did to Baghdad, and he was a buddhist so I dont know what point I am making.

[Manedwolf]

To be fair, I cannot think of a similar Muslim siege that was as bad as what the First Crusade did to Jerusalem.  That said, I cant think of a siege that was as bad as what Hulagu did to Baghdad, and he was a buddhist so I dont know what point I am making.

Okay.

Why are you bringing up ancient history? How about now?

How about your Underground, our WTC?

NOW. THIS TIME.

[agricola]

And the site appears to have been used to store weapons. If I saw an NV closeup of cylindrical objects being loaded on a truck from a site used to store weapons, I'd hit it too.

Bad luck for those who live there, then.  And anyone who lives next to a plumbers.  

 

[Manedwolf]

Bad luck for those who live there, then.  And anyone who lives next to a plumbers.  

 

Then maybe they shouldn't allow or outright support rockets being launched from their neighborhoods.

Also, what the hell?

The Israeli propaganda effort is being directed to achieve two main aims.

The first is to justify the air attacks. The second is to show that there is no humanitarian calamity in Gaza.

Both these aims are intended to place Israel in a strong position internationally and to enable its diplomacy to act as an umbrella to fend off calls for a ceasefire while the military operation unfolds.

Israel has pursued the first aim by being very active in getting its story across that Hamas is to blame. The sight of Hamas rockets streaking into Israel has been helpful in this respect.

Al-BBC?

Why is so much of the world media outright groveling to the bad guys? I don't understand.

[agricola]

Okay.

Why are you bringing up ancient history? How about now?

How about your Underground, our WTC?

NOW. THIS TIME.

We had 30+ years of bombings, shootings, assasinations, mortarings, and murders carried out by a terrorist group that was at least as good as Hamas is now (and in all reality was probably far better).  About the only thing we did not try is using the RAF to bomb their strongholds.  

The shooting stopped when people started talking to each other, and - with one or two exceptions - the peace has held for the past fifteen years.  Ironically though both sides needed to realise that they could not win as things were going - which, in both cases, does not appear to be the case between the Israelis and Hamas.

[Manedwolf]

We had 30+ years of bombings, shootings, assasinations, mortarings, and murders carried out by a terrorist group that was at least as good as Hamas is now (and in all reality was probably far better).  About the only thing we did not try is using the RAF to bomb their strongholds.  

The shooting stopped when people started talking to each other, and - with one or two exceptions - the peace has held for the past fifteen years.  Ironically though both sides needed to realise that they could not win as things were going - which, in both cases, does not appear to be the case between the Israelis and Hamas.

Apples and oranges. The IRA people were not suicidal, and wanted to live.

Islamist terorrists are only too happy to die. It's a holy war from a twisted death-cult version of the religion.

"Today, you are fighting the army of Allah. You are fighting against peoples for whom death for the sake of Allah, and for the sake of honor and glory, is preferable to life....How can you possibly defeat us? -Khalid al-Mish'al, leader of Hamas"

We should have killed all those who offend the Prophet, and instead, here we are, protesting peacefully. Dr. Mahmud al-Zahar, Hamas leader in Gaza, speaking about the offensive cartoons printed in Europe, February 9, 2006

You think you can reason with that?

[agricola]

Then maybe they shouldn't allow or outright support rockets being launched from their neighborhoods.

Ah, the old collective guilt way of thinking.

Also, what the hell?

Al-BBC?

Why is so much of the world media outright groveling to the bad guys? I don't understand.

The story actually comes from a report by B'Tselem, and it is odd to hear you suggest that news media are "outright grovelling" by not believing everything the IDF says.  As it is, they are (at least in the UK) bending over backwards to present the Israeli point of view.  My point about plumbers was that if you are happy to blow up a family because they look like they were loading weapons, then God help anyone else who looks like they have weapons.

[lupinus]

We had 30+ years of bombings, shootings, assasinations, mortarings, and murders carried out by a terrorist group that was at least as good as Hamas is now (and in all reality was probably far better).  About the only thing we did not try is using the RAF to bomb their strongholds.

Round peg, square hole.  The IRA wanted freedom and a nation of their own, they didn't want to all die in the process.  Hamas on the other hand likes the idea of dying and have their own country but they refuse to sit down and shut up.

[txgho1911]

Lots of little bombs they are dropping over there. Small bombs the US sold to them even.
So why all the big booms and big fire? Making big holes with little bunker busters.

[Manedwolf]

Lots of little bombs they are dropping over there. Small bombs the US sold to them even.
So why all the big booms and big fire? Making big holes with little bunker busters.

The big booms are the Hamas ordnance stored in the buildings exploding. Some of the video shown shows fires, and then multiple energetic explosions at random intervals, chain explosions that have the sudden concussion of large HE munitions detonating and setting each other off. Very bright.

That's what happens if you make your entire city into a weapons storage warehouse.

Oh, yes, and the talking heads are now saying that Israel should have engaged Hamas and convinced them to end the rocket fire.

Talk? How many times have they talked? They keep firing rockets. The people firing the rockets are not people, they're animals. They're trying to kill civilians on purpose.

Enough. Hamas needs to be destroyed this time, completely and finally.

[txgho1911]

Was being a little sarcastic MW.
I do not have the PC to follow every video.

[De Selby]

Round peg, square hole.  The IRA wanted freedom and a nation of their own, they didn't want to all die in the process.  Hamas on the other hand likes the idea of dying and have their own country but they refuse to sit down and shut up.

No, the IRA wanted to create a Catholic state and then expel all the Irish who had collaborated with Britain.  It was a religiously fanatic movement whose members shot women and children, and committed many of the worst acts of torture in the English speaking world during that time period.

This entire discussion is premised on the belief that Palestinians have no rights.  If you accept that Palestinians presumptively have the same rights as everyone else in the world, there is absolutely no justifying what is going on. 

But folks in America and Israel don't believe that, and so when agricola points out that killing people for "looking suspicious" is crazy, that's just rejected out of hand.  And at the same time as the Palestinians are not recognized to have any rights, we're all demanding that they refrain from any violence and just play nice.

I predict two long term consequences of this war:

1.  Upwards of 1000 Palestinians dead.

2.  Israel/US friendly government in Egypt will collapse.  Maybe in Jordan too.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

you got the irish thing partially right.  you left out the extortion racket   er taxes levied by both sides on shop owners to support le cause.  while indeed there were genuine political and social concerns there were also some who made revolution their business. and as always a certain number of sociopaths gravitated to it.

and you might mention that the ira fundraising in the us was enormous. as was  the direct smuggling of arms to ireland.  the fundraising made cair look like a small church bingo game.

this from a supporter of the republican cause who was disiilusioned

[lupinus]

And what brought about an end to the IRA bombings?  Both sides talking realistically.

Until Palestinian terrorist groups come to terms with reality, stop launching rockets, and come to the table with realistic wants there can/will be no peace.

When Hammas or the terrorist group flavour of the week starts launching rockets and mortars, that warrants military response.  If they happened to have been evil enough to be sending said rocket from an apartment complex the blame is on them when said complex becomes a pile of rubble, not those who were forced to make it that way to protect themselves.

Israel has made concessions, followed negotiated cease fires, and isn't attacking unprovoked.  Until Palestine stops the idiocy of getting rid of Israel completely they will continue to get smacked around every time Israel has had enough of the current bombings.

[MicroBalrog]

But folks in America and Israel don't believe that, and so when agricola points out that killing people for "looking suspicious" is crazy, that's just rejected out of hand.

...where did you get that?

[lupinus]

This entire discussion is premised on the belief that Palestinians have no rights.  If you accept that Palestinians presumptively have the same rights as everyone else in the world, there is absolutely no justifying what is going on.

I do believe they have rights and see both sides of the issue.  I suppose a viable two state option, Palestinians get the territory they currently have, Israel gets what they currently have, holy sights are kept and respected by the state they fall under and they along with free travel routes to them remain open to all.

But Palestine doesn't want that.  Hammas and others who keep the fight going will not stop until they are either defeated or Israel is wiped away.  As Israel isn't going anywhere (and shouldn't) that leaves us with one option.

[Manedwolf]

This entire discussion is premised on the belief that Palestinians have no rights.  If you accept that Palestinians presumptively have the same rights as everyone else in the world, there is absolutely no justifying what is going on. 

They need to stop firing rockets into Israel. They need to STOP FIRING ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL.

They made Gaza into one big missile base to deliberately lob rockets into civilian areas. The ended the ceasefire and started firing rockets. So no, they have no rights. Not until they stop acting like criminals.