Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Fjolnirsson on March 21, 2010, 07:42:25 PM
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...nevermind.
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Sorry, I screwed up.
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OK. The first link and list of names was from the orginal vote back in November '09. The second link was of the vote over just the Stupak ammendment (prohibiting federal dollars being spent on elective abortions) also from Nov '09.
Not sure what your point here is. =|
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I was just coming back to fix that, having realized my error. My point is, I'm an idiot.
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Voting underway now...
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...and that's it. Passed.
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219 to 212. Not a single Republican voted for it.
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[barf]
Traitors
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212 after the gutless Democrats who wanted political cover but didn't want to anger the leadership voted no.
The anger will be unimaginable this year.
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219 to 210. Not a single Republican voted for it.
i thought one did?
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When I clicked off Cspan 2 Reps had yet to vote. But time flows differently in the Congress-zone. ;/
I think it was party line.
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i thought one did?
Not according to the CSpan on-screen tally.
34 Dems voted against, 178 Republicans (all of 'em) voted against.
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I didn't think they'd do it.
They're going to pay a serious price in November. If not, then this country isn't the USA any more.
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Now voting on the Stupak amendment. Stupak caved to the President and renounced his amendment, but Reps are trying to pass it anyway knowing that it would prevent Senate adoption and kill the bill.
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Final tally isn't in, but the amendment is defeated. The bill will go the Senate, will be quickly passed there, and signed into law.
We're boned.
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And now they are off to solve illegal immigration! Taking all bets on the length of the amnesty bill they'll put together and how long it'll take 'em to
ram it down our throats pass it.
November isn't going to hurt them nearly as much as everyone thinks it will. If they are voted out, they will be back in shortly, and nothing will be repealed.
[barf]
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Here's a quip from Pelosi:
"We all know, and it's been said over and over again, that our economy needs something, a jolt and I believe that this legislation will unleash tremendous entrepreneurial power to our economy,"Pelosi said. "Imagine a society and an economy where a person could change jobs without losing health insurance, where they could be self-employed or start a small business. Imagine an economy where people could follow their passions or their talent and without having to worry that their children would not have health insurance."
Pelosi pledged the new legislation would create hundreds of thousands of jobs and save $1.2 trillion in the second 10 years.
"A jolt" my skinny white butt. "Shock" is more like it.
Only in her mind can spending trillions save money and create jobs.
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And now they are off to solve illegal immigration! Taking all bets on the length of the amnesty bill they'll put together and how long it'll take 'em to ram it down our throats pass it.
November isn't going to hurt them nearly as much as everyone thinks it will. If they are voted out, they will be back in shortly, and nothing will be repealed.
[barf]
And we won't have a filibuster since Senator Grahamnesty will vote for that crap.
I knew this year would be bad. I should have quashed that glimmer of hope before I considered it.
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Here's a quip from Pelosi:
"We all know, and it's been said over and over again, that our economy needs something, a jolt and I believe that this legislation will unleash tremendous entrepreneurial power to our economy,"Pelosi said. "Imagine a society and an economy where a person could change jobs without losing health insurance, where they could be self-employed or start a small business. Imagine an economy where people could follow their passions or their talent and without having to worry that their children would not have health insurance."
Pelosi pledged the new legislation would create hundreds of thousands of jobs and save $1.2 trillion in the second 10 years.
"A jolt" my skinny white butt. "Shock" is more like it.
Only in her mind can spending trillions save money and create jobs.
Don't worry, there's going to be a jolt alright.
However, jolting a heart that's already weak usually has a different effect than returning the patient to life...
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And we won't have a filibuster since Senator Grahamnesty will vote for that crap.
As a South Carolinian, I am all too familiar with that ahole. No need to remind me of his love of illegals and hatred for the people he is supposed to represent...
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http://theblogprof.blogspot.com/2010/03/video-liberty-dies-with-thunderous.html
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It was a nice Republic while it lasted.
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Stupak caved to the President and renounced his amendment, but Reps are trying to pass it anyway knowing that it would prevent Senate adoption and kill the bill.
Having lived in Michigan I wonder if Stupak is retiring. If not he is going to face a tough time in the next election.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100321/ts_csm/289188_1
The stand of Stupak and his colleagues had every indication of an underlying principle more than mere political gain. “We stood strong,” said Stupak. “We stood on a principle.”
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Knowing what the Democrats are planning(rushed amnesty bill, allowing massive new Democrat registration of new citizens beholden to them), I see no choice but to break it. Break the machine, drain the money out, hasten our countries demise as quickly as possible. Anybody have any ideas?
I'd like to believe we could turn this around. Given what we have seen play out, and what their clear intent is now, I just don't see it. Don't get me wrong, I am still going to vote, still going to push and work for new representatives, try and educate people. I just don't have much hope for any of it.
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So, what does this boondoggle do to the average working Joe?
Say a fella has health insurance from his employer right now, and makes $60K.
How much do his taxes go up? What happens to his health care?
How does that change if he made $100K instead of $60K?
Just trying to plan to cope with this crap until it can be repealed... not endorsing it by any means. [barf]
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Here's a quip from Pelosi:
"Imagine an economy where people could follow their passions or their talent and without having to worry that their children would not have health insurance."
In other words, imagine a society where producing goods and services that others find value in, and thus pay you money for, is no longer the path to having a somewhat secure/sustainable lifestyle. Instead, imagine a society where the failed artist producing works only he finds value in can have the same securities as the man producing a good or service that many use and depend on.
True capitalism is so last century. Throwing the obligatory "it's for the children" spin doesn't hide the underlying societal shift that's going on here. ;/
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So, what does this boondoggle do to the average working Joe?
Say a fella has health insurance from his employer right now, and makes $60K.
How much do his taxes go up? What happens to his health care?
How does that change if he made $100K instead of $60K?
Just trying to plan to cope with this crap until it can be repealed... not endorsing it by any means. [barf]
His employer will be like every other employer, they will drop his health care coverage for .gov run health care. Why pay for it when the .gov provides it?
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His employer will be like every other employer, they will drop his health care coverage for .gov run health care. Why pay for it when the .gov provides it?
That is probably what will happen.
If it doesn't, there are other considerations. In my case, I have once of those "Cadillac plans". Apparently they base that interpretation on the cost of the plan rather than what the plan actually offers. My plan is also a great one. So I guess if my employer continues to offer it, I'll be paying more taxes which may make me switch to an inferior one. But I suspect the benefit will go away.
Basically, I see higher taxes, less actual coverage, and a few other negatives. It's really all conjecture though, since they didn't really pass a plan yet- they passed a plan of a plan. What they passed will be changed as they manipulate it into what they wanted all along. It doesn't look good.
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FYI- MSN has a poll. At this point, 50-and some odd percent are angry at that the bill passed. About 23 percent like it.
Go there and use the same tactic Obama's Chicago machine uses- Vote early and vote often! >:D
Not that it will make any difference as we now have a bunch of politicians who just know they are smarter than we are. They will pass whatever they want and we'll just bend over because it's all for our own good. [barf]
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.investors.com%2Fimage%2FRAMclr031210_FULL.jpg.cms&hash=6b23ea2783fd7326f4326727757eb34023346ee2)
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http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/mi01_stupak/morenews/20100319faagrant.html
30 pieces of silver or coincidence
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That's part of the big problem, No one can really say for sure what it will do since no one has actually been able to read exactly what has just been passed.
I'm pretty certain taxes will go up and actual access to health care will go down. How long it will take fo it to be noticable is hard to guess.
Listening to the dems on Morning Joe thit morning it looks like they are framing this as "Just like the Civil Rights Act". That way they can frame any opposition as being racist in nature.
It may not be over yet but the fat lady is warming up her voice.
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You can call it "Suicide in November" all you want, but mark my words, this won't hurt them much. They will either stay in power or return to power shortly...
They have America by the short hairs and they know it. This won't be solved by a traditional election, this is now up to the States vs. the Federal Government...
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So, what does this boondoggle do to the average working Joe?
Say a fella has health insurance from his employer right now, and makes $60K.
How much do his taxes go up? What happens to his health care?
How does that change if he made $100K instead of $60K?
Just trying to plan to cope with this crap until it can be repealed... not endorsing it by any means. [barf]
Short answer: we don't entirely know. They didn't bother to read the bill, or let any of us read it, before they passed it. As Pelosi said, "We have to pass it to find out what's in it."
If the bill is anything like what they've been discussing, it'll mean the following things:
Insurance costs will skyrocket. Doesn't matter whether you pay them directly or your employer pays them on your behalf. Your health care costs just went through the roof.
All companies will be required to pay for over-priced insurance for their workers, or pay fines to the IRS.
Medicare funds are raided to pay for the new bill, which will leave Medicare horrendously underfunded. Expect these goons in Congress to come back in a year or three and insist on additional taxes to fund Medicare, which will really amount to additional taxes to fund the current health care bill that they concealed from the CBO in order to be able to lie about this bill reducing the deficit.
There's a new Medicare tax applied to capital gains. I think it's 5%.
The worst financial risks will now be subsidized by people who don't represent any risk. Whether you're healthy or not you'll pay as much as the worst diabetic, cancer-ridden, congestive-heart-failure, obese tobacco smoker who needs a few lung transplants. This is to make insurance more "fair".
On top of that, you'll no longer be able to buy any type of insurance of your choosing. The bill mandates that all insurance plans sold must meet new Federal standards. If you've chosen to use a minimalist insurance plan in the past, your existing plan will be outlawed. If you have an expensive comprehensive plan, they'll still probably need to make some changes to comply with the new government fiat, further increasing the costs and covering things you'd never want coverage for.
If you choose not to buy one of these new expensive health plans, you'll be fined by the IRS for non-compliance. If your employer helps you pay for one of these overpriced, legally-required health plans, the IRS will tax you on the amount paid.
In short, health care will become far more expensive, businesses will have no choice but to let additional workers go or go out of business, and none of the underlying problems with rising medical costs will be addressed. Since nothing is done to get patients involved in the pricing of their medical care, costs will continue to spiral out of control.
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They're going to have a hard time getting more money out of the 20+% of folks who are unemployed, or forcing them to buy health insurance with money they don't have =|
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Those people aren't going to pay more. You are going to pay more, to pay for them.
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FYI- MSN has a poll. At this point, 50-and some odd percent are angry at that the bill passed. About 23 percent like it.
Go there and use the same tactic Obama's Chicago machine uses- Vote early and vote often! >:D
Not that it will make any difference as we now have a bunch of politicians who just know they are smarter than we are. They will pass whatever they want and we'll just bend over because it's all for our own good. [barf]
looks like they didn't like the results, it's gone. :lol:
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Those people aren't going to pay more. You are going to pay more, to pay for them.
I'd have to have a job again, first :(
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I'd have to have a job again, first :(
Government Tractor Factory #27 will offer you a job, Comrade! :police:
Marvellous benefits include three meals per day and bullet to the head behind the shed if you are severely ill Comrade! What else can you want in glorious People's Republic Of North America? :police:
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Government Tractor Factory #27 will offer you a job, Comrade! :police:
Marvellous benefits include three meals per day and bullet to the head behind the shed if you are severely ill Comrade! What else can you want in glorious People's Republic Of North America? :police:
We have tractor factories in the USA now ? :O
Who knew? :lol:
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We build Obamacar, too, nyet?
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We have tractor factories in the USA now ? :O
Who knew? :lol:
Will soon have Comrade! Chairman Obama will see to it! :police:
For Great Worker Revolution tractors are needed! :police:
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We build Obamacar, too, nyet?
this one? (http://www.impactlab.com/2008/12/08/phylla-electric-car/) =D
is a fiat [tinfoil]
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Will soon have Comrade! Chairman Obama will see to it! :police:
For Great Worker Revolution tractors are needed! :police:
With so many unemployed workers, all they will need is a harness factory .... ;/
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Knowing what the Democrats are planning(rushed amnesty bill, allowing massive new Democrat registration of new citizens beholden to them), I see no choice but to break it. Break the machine, drain the money out, hasten our countries demise as quickly as possible. Anybody have any ideas?
Swallow your pride and use as much government controlled healthcare when the time comes. There are a lot fo injuries and ailments that you can fake and demand MRIs/CT scans, etc. Use the doctor's office as much as possible, go there if you have a cold. It will cost you more, I would imagine, but if we can get 1 million, 10 million people to do the same, the machine will be broken in short order. The faster we can get the system to a system of rationing, the more people will start to bitch and stay angry about it.
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Perhaps we need a different mindset.
We should actively encourage our employers to discard health insurance plans. Their fine is significantly less than the cost of insurance. Individual fines are also significantly less than the cost of insurance. Only buy insurance when you become ill.
The insurance companies will become investment banks or something like that, once insurance is no longer likely to be profitable. This will essentially leave gov't with the bill, and it will be catastrophic. Bankrupt the system, and let is collapse. Then we can build a new system.
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Wait, I don't understand:
You are seriously advocating deliberately sabotaging America's health care system?
You realize that'll disrupt not merely some minor bureaucracy service for people who are waiting at the DMV or whatnot, but medical care for people with broken limbs and cancer and deadly diseases?
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Wait, I don't understand:
You are seriously advocating deliberately sabotaging America's health care system?
You realize that'll disrupt not merely some minor bureaucracy service for people who are waiting at the DMV or whatnot, but medical care for people with broken limbs and cancer and deadly diseases?
Sometimes a petulant child will break their own toys during a tantrum. Reasoning with them rarely works. =|
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Wait, I don't understand:
You are seriously advocating deliberately sabotaging America's health care system?
You realize that'll disrupt not merely some minor bureaucracy service for people who are waiting at the DMV or whatnot, but medical care for people with broken limbs and cancer and deadly diseases?
I have one of those so-called 'Caddillac insurance plans' right now. I expect that to go away in the next few years. My profession (chemist) has some serious downsides (much increased odds of cancer/organ failure) which is the reason why we normally have very good insurance plans. With Obamacare, I can pretty much forsee getting cancer 20-30 years from now and not getting the top notch health care that would be available through my current insurance plan.
There are two good ways to kill a machine- throw sand in the gears, or overwork it and burn it out. I plan to do my best to do both.
If you don't kill the beast, it will swallow you whole.
Sometimes a petulant child will break their own toys during a tantrum. Reasoning with them rarely works.
Its a petulant child who supports a system that takes from one and gives to another. A petulent child is one who is wrapped up in crying "that's not fair!" Adults get the job at hand done.
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I wonder if the insurance plan the Congress has is considered a "Cadillac plan" or did they exempt themselves again? :cuss:
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I wonder if the insurance plan the Congress has is considered a "Cadillac plan" or did they exempt themselves again? :cuss:
They exempted themselves.
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They exempted themselves.
Of course! They're special. And they get to keep their plan, at your expense (if you are one of the few taxpayers left in this country), even after they retire. "It's good to be king"... or in their case, "special".
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We should actively encourage our employers to discard health insurance plans. Their fine is significantly less than the cost of insurance. Individual fines are also significantly less than the cost of insurance. Only buy insurance when you become ill.
Semi-seriously though:
I'm a pretty healthy guy, and so is my wife. We both have no ongoing prescriptions, and go to the doctor once a year. Maybe twice. Our GP's cash office visit fee is $60, and our copay/visit is $25.
Our employers provide us our annual vacinations free, and my car insurance has a pretty high personal injury policy in case of car accidents.
For years we've been paying more for insurance then we use (heck more then our total medical bills) because something might happen. We might get cancer or some other nasty, expensive disease.
To top it off, we get no money back in taxes, or subsidies that the IRS could grap for "fees".
If I get cancer or whatever, I can buy insurance then, because they can't deny me coverage.
Why should I continue to pay for insurance? What, other then my sense of honesty, could compel me to continue to underwrite other's healthcare?
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If I get cancer or whatever, I can buy insurance then, because they can't deny me coverage.
Why should I continue to pay for insurance? What, other then my sense of honesty, could compel me to continue to underwrite other's healthcare?
If the penalty for not having coverage is less than the coverage itself, there is no good reason economically or idealogically to have coverage until you need it under Obamacare.
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If I get cancer or whatever, I can buy insurance then, because they can't deny me coverage.
Why should I continue to pay for insurance? What, other then my sense of honesty, could compel me to continue to underwrite other's healthcare?
That's one of the major faults of the bill. Many young people will wait until they're either sick or compelled to have insurance before getting it.
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That's one of the major faults of the bill. Many young people will wait until they're either sick or compelled to have insurance before getting it.
I'm 30, not that young. But I could pour the money I save from not haveing health insurance into retirement, or a motorcycle, or something equally useful. As a pure numbers game the odds of you needing expensive healthcare is pretty low. That's not even counting medicare and the VA as I get older.
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I'm 30, not that young. But I could pour the money I save from not haveing health insurance into retirement, or a motorcycle, or something equally useful.
At your age, I suggest you pick the motorcycle. Motorcycles are fun. Health insurance is boring. :laugh:
I chose not to have health insurance for many years. Then I got married and decided I needed children. Health insurance was a good thing to have. That was just about the same time I sold my motorcycle. I didn't get another one until after the kid grew up. Oh, and I got divorced. My next and current wife liked motorcycles so we both got one. And I still had money for health insurance so I didn't have to pick which I wanted.
Now, sadly, the motorcycles are gone again. But not because we had to chose due to financial reasons.
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i say buy ammo, easy to store, fun to use, handy to have, and can be traded. =D [tinfoil]