Author Topic: Death penalty barred for child rape  (Read 14262 times)

MechAg94

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Death penalty barred for child rape
« on: June 25, 2008, 09:33:10 AM »
http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/death-penalty-barred-for-child-rape/

Maybe I need someone to help me understand this since I don't get the logic of this ruling.  They are saying that the death penalty is not "cruel and unusual" in the case where the victim dies.  However, if they don't die, it is "cruel and unusual".  Is it just me or is that not a legal decision at all, but an activist judge saying "I think this is wrong so I won't allow it".  IMO, if a type of punishment is NOT cruel and unusual, then it is not cruel and unusual for any significant crime.  Due to this, some sicko who rapes multiple kids who are scarred and screwed up in the head for the rest of their lives cannot be executed, but if a father of one of those kids planned to kill and then murdered the rapist, he can be executed.  It just seems ridiculous to me and a bit the beyond the scope of an impartial court ruling. 

Quote
Barring the death penalty for any crime that does not take the life of an individual victim, the Supreme Court ruled Wednesday that it is unconstitutional to impose the death penalty for the crime of raping a child. If the victim does not die and death was not intended, capital punishment for that crime violates the Eighth Amendment, the Court ruled in an opinion by Justice Anthony M. Kennedy.  The case was Patrick Kennedy v. Louisiana (07-343).  The broad declaration that death sentences should be reserved for crimes that take the life of the victim will apply, the Court said, to crimes against individuals  thus leaving intact, for example, a possible death sentence for treason.Part of the Courts rationale for nullifying a death sentence for raping a child was that the child victim gets enlisted, perhaps repeatedly, to recount the crime, forcing on the child a moral choice that the youngster is not mature enough to make. The way the death penalty here involves the child victim in its enforcement can compromise a decent legal system, Justice Kennedy wrote.

The decision split the Court 5-4.  It nullified a Louisiana law that provided capital punishment for raping a child under age 12.  The law was since amended to apply to raping a child under age 13.  Five other states have similar laws.

At the close of Wednesdays public session, Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., announced that the Court will issue all remaining decisions for the Term at 10 a.m. Thursday.  The test case on whether the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a gun is among those remaining (District of Columbia v. Heller, 07-290).  The others still pending are cases on the constitutionality of the so-called Millionaires Amendment on campaign finance (Davis v. FEC, 07-320), and on federal regulators power to undo wholesale energy sales contracts (Morgan Stanley Capital v. Public Utility District, 06-1457, and a companion case).

Justice Kennedys majority opinion in the Louisiana capital case was supported by Justices Stephen G. Breyer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, David H. Souter and John Paul Stevens.  Justice Samuel A. Alito, Jr., wrote for the dissenters; he was joined by Chief Justice Roberts and Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.

Justice Alito, rejecting the majority view that there is now a national consensus against executing one who rapes a child, argued that the focus should not be on the fact that only six states now have such laws. More might have taken the step, Alito argued, if the Supreme Court in barring execution for raping an adult in 1977 had not given state legislators good reason to fear that they never could pass such a law.  The broad dicta in that case, Alito said, was not supported by all of those in the majority in Coker v. Georgia.  Since then, the Justice added, state courts have read the Coker opinion in its widest sweep, stunting legislative consideration of the death penalty when a child was the victim.

(I had to edit my example a little to make it more appropriate)
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

longeyes

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2008, 10:01:30 AM »
I thought crimes were violations of "The People," a rending of the public spirit...  Isn't that why criminals are prosecuted by "The People?"
"Domari nolo."

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lacoochee

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2008, 10:26:39 AM »
Well that's one more nail in the coffin of our Republic.  When you no longer can trust your government, executive, legislative and judicial,  where do you turn?  That's right you turn to your local community and dispense justice through them.  We allow the state to carry out justice, we give the state our authority to execute justice.  We can take that authority away and give it back to ourselves or other organizations outside of the state.  How close are we to that with this ruling?

Trust me if John Couie, was released today, he wouldn't get a hundred feet in Florida.

That aside I can think of better punishments for child rape than a state administered death penalty.  All child rapists should be required to wear pink and then released into general population upon sentencing.  See problem solved and being that it's Louisiana we are talking about here, any bets on how close I am to being right?

 

 
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MechAg94

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2008, 10:40:56 AM »
Well, I am not really in favor of creative punishments.  IMO, it is better to just kill a criminal than encourage cruelty or torture on the part of others.  But I realize that in Texas, I doubt a father who killed his kids rapist would be given the death penalty or convicted at all in some places.  In Texas, it is the jury that answers specific questions in addition to guilt/innocence to determine if the death penalty is applied in a capital crime.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

longeyes

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2008, 10:45:33 AM »
There is something deeply perverse in the majority's decision on punishment for child rape.  There is no crime more abhorrent.  Brutalization of the innocent is a touchstone of our most radical social fabric.  It violates the most precious relationship in civilized society.  Failure to show our most extreme displeasure at such an act lessens us as a people.  Compassion for the perpetrator shows a lack of regard for society as a whole, for "the people."
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

MechAg94

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2008, 10:59:22 AM »
There is something deeply perverse in the majority's decision on punishment for child rape.  There is no crime more abhorrent.  Brutalization of the innocent is a touchstone of our most radical social fabric.  It violates the most precious relationship in civilized society.  Failure to show our most extreme displeasure at such an act lessens us as a people.  Compassion for the perpetrator shows a lack of regard for society as a whole, for "the people."
IMO, it shows that they have really forgotten the victim. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2008, 11:09:06 AM »
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

crossfire

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2008, 11:20:35 AM »
"death sentences should be reserved for those crimes that take the life of the victim"
Personally, I know of nothing other than murder that takes the life of the victim more profoundly than rape.
What in the name of all that is just is our Supreme Court thinking?

Manedwolf

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2008, 11:22:01 AM »
How about if the crime is so heinous that it destroys the poor victim's innocence forever?

A child raped is forever damaged. No amount of therapy will erase it.

To me, that's unforgivable, and since the rapist WILL do it again if they get the chance, they need to be simply deleted.

longeyes

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2008, 02:48:50 PM »
It is interesting how the Leftist bloc on SCOTUS can be so creative in finding rights that don't exist but suddenly can't grasp the fact that you can "murder" a child's soul by rape.  All of a sudden they go literal on us.  Of course children are disposable...  I keep forgetting that.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2008, 04:01:06 PM »
often i see things differently than some folks but this time i'm with em. like the councilman in philly once said. "i'll pull on that rope"
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

crossfire

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2008, 04:52:10 PM »
It is ironic that this happens the same day as the Supreme Court ruling....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080625/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/child_prostitutes

"We together have no higher calling than to protect our children and to safeguard their innocence," FBI Director Robert Mueller said Wednesday. "Yet the sex trafficking of children remains one of the most violent and unforgivable crimes in this country."

Someone needs to wake up Justice Kennedy and reverse this Pervert Protection ruling.

longeyes

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2008, 05:03:01 PM »
Liberalism has been flirting, literally and figuratively, with libertinism for decades now.  I think we are about to see the full engagement.

The only kind of "liberty" that appears to excite the Left is sexual.  A society built on a More Perfect Orgasm is a society that is looking at a difficult future.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

Dntsycnt

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2008, 05:18:26 PM »
Longeyes:  How does that have anything to do with whether we should kill rapists?

longeyes

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2008, 05:53:13 PM »
Look behind the ruling to the cultural waves rolling onto the shore.

I for one am not interested in "mercy" for child rapists.  I don't consider executing them to be cruel and unusual; I consider their crime to be cruel and unusual.  We all die when children are raped.  If the Fab Five had more imagination they would understand how certain crimes of violence echo down through time leaving a horrendous wake of damage affecting more than just the victim.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

Dntsycnt

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2008, 06:16:35 PM »
You introduced the idea of sexual freedom into a thread about whether or not we should kill rapists.  You have yet to reconcile the two.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2008, 06:23:44 PM »
Nevermind.  I misunderstood.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2008, 06:28:11 PM »
I'm shocked to see it, but Obama has gone on record opposing the court's decision.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080625/ap_on_el_pr/obama_child_rape_case

I guess he's "for the children" more than he's for the libertinism.  Although, on balance, I agree with longyuese that the left seems way too enamored of sexual hedonism.  This bit from Obama surprises me.

longeyes

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2008, 06:32:43 PM »
I'm not sure I'd use "sexual" and "freedom" back to back...   smiley





"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

crossfire

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2008, 07:22:50 PM »
I'm not surprised that Obama, or any of the candidates, voice their objection of the SCOTUS ruling. It's just plain wrong. I cannot see how Justice Kennedy, or the other members of the Court, can now look any child in the eye and tell them they care about their welfare without choking on their words.

old school

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2008, 07:36:29 PM »
Child rapists and other broken people who are compelled to kill or harm other people as a part of their nature are of no use to the planet. They are broken. We will never allow them to return to society. So what is the point in anything other than killing them? This debate about cruel and humane is bizarre to me. What the #*&@ are they talking about? This is a no brainer to me.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2008, 07:37:15 PM »
Questions:

1. Upon what standard does one determine "cruel and unusual"? Is not the usual standard "as compared to the general standards of the time"?

2. If we can execute a scumbag who rapes a five-year-old (a horrible crime by any man's definition), do we also execute a man who has an affair with a 16-year-old? What if there's a huge year gap?

3. What does my freedom to have sex with any consenting adult (or combination of consenting adults) have to do with this?
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lacoochee

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2008, 08:38:02 PM »
Quote
1. Upon what standard does one determine "cruel and unusual"? Is not the usual standard "as compared to the general standards of the time"?

Obviously, the standard is whatever the Supreme Court decides it is at the moment.  Thanks to the legislative and executive branches of our government for not having a enough spine to limit the excesses of our increasingly dictatorial judicial branch.

Quote
2. If we can execute a scumbag who rapes a five-year-old (a horrible crime by any man's definition), do we also execute a man who has an affair with a 16-year-old? What if there's a huge year gap?

Maybe it's just me, but there is a huge difference between the rape of a 5 year and the nominal rape of a consenting 16 year old.  Seems obvious to me, that would should be weighed differently than the other.  If the 16 year old had been force-ably raped, well all bets are off.

Quote
3. What does my freedom to have sex with any consenting adult (or combination of consenting adults) have to do with this?

Nothing, where's the party? angel
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---James Madison,The Federalist Papers, No. 46.

Antibubba

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2008, 10:09:21 PM »
Quote
There is something deeply perverse in the majority's decision on punishment for child rape.  There is no crime more abhorrent.  Brutalization of the innocent is a touchstone of our most radical social fabric.  It violates the most precious relationship in civilized society.  Failure to show our most extreme displeasure at such an act lessens us as a people.

Murder is more abhorrent.  The victim will never have another opportunity, for anything.  A child victim of rape can grow up, marry, have children--they can make a full recovery.  A lot of them do. 

Those who claim to be libertarian should be wary of giving the government more opportunities to take life.  Will it then be extended for those in possession of child pornography?

Quote
Child rapists and other broken people who are compelled to kill or harm other people as a part of their nature are of no use to the planet. They are broken. We will never allow them to return to society. So what is the point in anything other than killing them? This debate about cruel and humane is bizarre to me. What the #*&@ are they talking about? This is a no brainer to me.

And they should never have a free day again.  But there are a lot of murderers who aren't sentenced to death.  But I don't want to essentially tell a child that "What was done to you was worse than death--that killing you would have been a lesser offense". 

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. Upon what standard does one determine "cruel and unusual"? Is not the usual standard "as compared to the general standards of the time"?

For the State to take the life of a man is a situation that must be utterly examined.  Once you kill a man there is no going back.  Horrific as child rape is, by itself it is not reason enough to kill him.

Quote
I cannot see how Justice Kennedy, or the other members of the Court, can now look any child in the eye and tell them they care about their welfare without choking on their words.

Kennedy isn't sending them on their merry way, right?  He's not letting them go.  He's exercising his conservative beliefs.
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MechAg94

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Re: Death penalty barred for child rape
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2008, 04:26:01 AM »
Murder is more abhorrent.  The victim will never have another opportunity, for anything.  A child victim of rape can grow up, marry, have children--they can make a full recovery.  A lot of them do. 

Those who claim to be libertarian should be wary of giving the government more opportunities to take life.  Will it then be extended for those in possession of child pornography?
Who mentioned child pornography?  Existing laws already address it.  No need to throw out issues that don't exist.  And before you throw out the next one, I believe the article mentioned the law referred to children under 12 years old.  We are not talking about teenagers here. 

Since you mention it, the person who victimized the child by creating the porn should be punished as we were talking about depending on what was actually done. 

I guess I could quote a number of movie lines from people who said there are things that haunt a person worse than dying.  I have exactly zero sympathy for rapists at all much less child rapist. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge