Death penalty barred for child rape

[MicroBalrog]

What's the legal standard for "cruel and unusual"?

In the age of the Founders, "Flogging" was not seen as an unusual punishment, nor cruel. Other stuff, even more disgusting, was practiced in the 18th century.

Yet nobody claims - seriously at least - that introducing the death penalty for stealing a car, or flogging for shoplifting, would not be "cruel and unusual.

C&U usually means "in accordance with the standards of the era".

How do we judge that?

[MechAg94]

I would also point out that at least in my state it is the jury that decides guilt and who also decides if the death penalty applies. 

[MechAg94]

I guess crimes like this really piss me off so it is difficult to argue without getting a little emotional. 

[Balog]

I think public flogging and humiliation is a perfect remedy to many property crimes. Get caught tagging a wall? A good beating and a couple days in the stocks getting pelted with rotten veggies by irate citizens should cure you of that.

[Dntsycnt]

Balog:  You're not being serious, are you?

While I'd love to kill every child rapist on the planet, I am not comfortable at all with the state killing them.

[BlueStarLizzard]

serial rapist, serial murders and child molesters have pshochological issues. they are compelled to do something horrible, and as such should be treated like rabid animals. you don't pet it and try to make it better. you kill it before it hurts you or someone else.

there is no recovery. there is not a purpose in keeping them alive. there is no tourture needed or crule and unusual punishment.

just put the animal down and move on.

and that is all i've got to say.

[Balog]

Balog:  You're not being serious, are you?

While I'd love to kill every child rapist on the planet, I am not comfortable at all with the state killing them.

I'm being very serious. The point of punishment is to discourage the repetition of the offensive act. Nothing deters better than pain and humiliation, especially for young people who can't see beyond the immediate consequences.

Why are you so uncomfortable with the state killing people who deserve it? I hardly think raping a pre-pubescent child is a slippery slope issue. Are you also uncomfortable with the state placing people in prison? Punishing evil-doers is one of the few legitimate purposes of the .gov.

[Matthew Carberry]

Imprisonment is reversible in the case of an error being made at trial.

Death is permanent.

I'd rather lock a convicted scumbag up for life, which is cheaper than the death penalty process in any event, than risk killing an innocent man wrongfully convicted.

[Antibubba]

"....but but but, it's for the children!!!"




Hey, somebody had to say it.

[MicroBalrog]

I hardly think raping a pre-pubescent child is a slippery slope issue.

Are you familiar with "Dateline"?

[Racehorse]

serial rapist, serial murders and child molesters have pshochological issues. they are compelled to do something horrible, and as such should be treated like rabid animals. you don't pet it and try to make it better. you kill it before it hurts you or someone else.

there is no recovery. there is not a purpose in keeping them alive. there is no tourture needed or crule and unusual punishment.

just put the animal down and move on.

and that is all i've got to say.

I agree with everything you said except the bolded part. I don't think they are compelled to do anything. I think they still have the ability to choose. The fact that they choose to give in to their perverted urges is what makes them so despicable to me.

[roo_ster]

MB & others who recoil in horror at public humiliation and/or corporal punishment* as cruel & unusual:

I grant that such is unusual today, but I think it, in many cases, much less cruel* than imprisonment for months or years.

Personally, I would rather take a beating with no long-term aftereffects than be incarcerated.  Also, if the offender is supporting a family, you have likely just tossed them on the welfare roles if the guilty party is incarcerated.

I would limit corporal punishment to a first offense or some step before incarceration.  Repeat offenders who have already gotten their licks obviously have not learned their lesson and need to be incarcerated to protect the rest of us from their depredations.


Death penalty, in general:

These days, I am much more sympathetic to the death penalty for the reason that we can so much more reliably rule out the wrongly accused.  The whole deal where folks are freed due to genetic testing is something I applaud and it reinforces my confidence that newly-accused folks are less likely to be convicted than in the past.


Death penalty, for child-rape:

I am in favor of it.  There are deep-seated reasons why even the most base among us recoil with horror at the violation of children.  Those who do the violating need to be removed from the gene pool, posthaste.









* I do NOT include actual, no-bull torture in corporal punishment.  Corporal punishment would be something less than the caning one would see in Singapore, as such caning leaves some pretty nasty aftereffect.

[wmenorr67]

Also, if the offender is supporting a family, you have likely just tossed them on the welfare roles if the guilty party is incarcerated.

Then give them some assistance to get on their own feet.


But most people like that already don't have jobs and are on public assistance.

[Dntsycnt]

My dad always said he'd like to see rapists put in the stocks, nude, on a public stage with a corncob on a stick, so that any passersby could grab it and give them a poke.

I think that would qualify as "unusual."

You do make a compelling argument for corporal punishment, though.  I'll have to think on that.

[Firethorn]

I think that would qualify as "unusual."

[pendantic]But the constitution says cruel AND unusual punishements are forbidden!  Not cruel OR unusual!  The punishment is allowed as long as it's either cruel or unusual, but not both![/pendantic]   

Honestly enough,  I consider a 'Cruel' punishment one that doesn't fit the crime and/or doesn't fix the problem(them committing criminal acts).  If caning is proven to be 90% effective in preventing future criminal acts by first time offenders*, then one could argue it's not cruel - it's fast, cheap, and effective.  Storing criminals in prisons can be considered cruel as well.

Worst case, make it an option - 20 months in jail or 20 lashes.  Which would you pick?

[MechAg94]

I would argue that prison is NOT reversible.  Sure you can let them out and feel better about yourself for doing it, but they will never get those years back nor forget their time in prison.

I applaud jurisdictions who are using genetic testing to let innocent people out of prison.  I also applaud those jurisdictions and labs for maintaining those samples in good enough condition to test after many years.  I am more concerned about the jurisdictions who aren't doing it and don't have the evidence anymore. 

[MicroBalrog]

[pendantic]But the constitution says cruel AND unusual punishements are forbidden!  Not cruel OR unusual!  The punishment is allowed as long as it's either cruel or unusual, but not both![/pendantic]   grin

It's pedantic

Pendantic is not a word.

[FTA84]

This is why I am all for reinstating banishment (for those who have had legal appeals exhausted).  Got a child rapist?  Obviously, they can't (and never will be able to) participate in our society.  Don't want to take their lives?  Put them on a remote island with a knife, a backpack, and some water.  God will sort the rest out.

This is the way it was done in antiquity and is done everyday outside of the legal system.  Smoking in a resturant that is non-smoking?  You will be asked to leave.  Misbehaving in school (a right more fundamental than the 'right' to rehabilitation in prison)?  You will be kicked out.

Either participate, contribute, but, at the very least, cooperate with society or get out.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I am not comfortable at all with the state killing them.

adult life consists of a number of needed actions that are often uncomfortable you get used to it

[Matthew Carberry]

I am not comfortable at all with the state killing them.

adult life consists of a number of needed actions that are often uncomfortable you get used to it

Because that's the only reason someone could possibly be uncomfortable with the death penalty? 

Because they aren't a grown up?

Really?

I didn't realize it was as simple as that.  All this time I thought there were any number of quite adult and sophisticated moral, ethical and intellectual arguments to be made both for and against.

Nice to know that those against it actually just "have some growing up to do".

 

[BlueStarLizzard]

serial rapist, serial murders and child molesters have pshochological issues. they are compelled to do something horrible, and as such should be treated like rabid animals. you don't pet it and try to make it better. you kill it before it hurts you or someone else.

there is no recovery. there is not a purpose in keeping them alive. there is no tourture needed or crule and unusual punishment.

just put the animal down and move on.

and that is all i've got to say.

I agree with everything you said except the bolded part. I don't think they are compelled to do anything. I think they still have the ability to choose. The fact that they choose to give in to their perverted urges is what makes them so despicable to me.

i say compelled for numerous reasons. you never can trust a molestor not to do it again. it is incomprehensible to me that a person would knowingly and volentarly rape or murder for enjoyment, especially when it comes to a child. they're are also KNOWN psycological problems which make them impossible to rehabilitate.
by what means do they begin? because something in them compels them to do it. the fact that they have acted on those urges makes them twice as likley to do it again.
my use of that term does not defend them. which i'm sure you have figured out by the fact that i am perfectly willing to send them to the executioner.

[MicroBalrog]

adult life consists of a number of needed actions that are often uncomfortable you get used to it

That's interesting.

What exactly makes the death penalty for "child molestation" needed?

Practically all the countries of the world, the United States included, have got along for centuries without having it. How is it "needed"?

[LadySmith]

On one hand, you have the ruling that states the death penalty is not warranted because child rape does not result in physical death.
On the other, you have the murder of everything that makes a child a child.

There is also the fear that the death penalty for child rape would result in the murder of the victims because the rapist has everything to lose by leaving the victim alive and nothing to lose if caught.
There is also the belief that child rapists usually will not stop their crimes unless they are put to death.

And then you have the possibility that an innocent person may be put to death by the state while modern technology makes guilt and innocence easier to prove.

Hmmm...

What exactly makes the death penalty for "child molestation" needed?

Death appears to be the only effective means of dealing with child molesters at this time. Over the years children have had childhood stripped from them for fear of molesters. Compare trick-or-treating of the past to present. Men and their manhood are questioned because of this. They are seen as potential molesters now. Yet for all the overprotection children continue to be raped in seemingly epidemic proportions. Whether the frequency is real or perceived is another matter of debate, but it is enough to have changed our society.
And society is getting sick of it.

[MicroBalrog]

Death appears to be the only effective means of dealing with child molesters at this time.

Please elaborate as to why life in prison is ineffective. It seems to work for... oh I don't know, the entire world.

[Matthew Carberry]

Death appears to be the only effective means of dealing with child molesters at this time. Over the years children have had childhood stripped from them for fear of molesters. Compare trick-or-treating of the past to present. Men and their manhood are questioned because of this. They are seen as potential molesters now. Yet for all the overprotection children continue to be raped in seemingly epidemic proportions. Whether the frequency is real or perceived is another matter of debate, but it is enough to have changed our society.
And society is getting sick of it.

Then "sick of it" society needs to be educated that perception is not actually reality.  Especially when peoples lives are on the line.

Society is sick of the epidemic of school and other mass shootings and wants to start screwing with peoples lives and rights to "assault weapons and hi-cap mags" because of it.

Except that, regardless of media-driven perceptions, there isn't and hasn't been an epidemic of school and other mass shootings and thus no additional regulations or infringements are necessary.

If anything, reporting of child abuse by and to authorities is better, which is a good thing as we can see if what we are doing has effect and scientifically approach the issue, but that doesn't mean the actual rates are truly increasing nor that we are gripped by some new "epidemic" that somehow requires new and more extreme measures.

Simply put, it is most likely that we are just more aware of what has been going on all along, with society and its children somehow surviving all these years with standard, proven, criminal justice responses.