Author Topic: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval  (Read 16987 times)

Balog

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2009, 01:12:31 AM »
I believe if you consider the definition of a religion, secular humanism fits the bill to a T. A religion is simply a worldview about the larger, unprovable questions: origins, god, morality etc. Not traditionally "religious" != non-religious.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2009, 01:17:45 AM »
I'll say it blue.

Again, unless you're a public school official my comment had nothing to do with you. I was merely pointing out that only one religion is allowed to be taught in public schools.

technically, no religion is taught in public schools. secondly the morals that are taught in classrooms that you decided to call the religion of Secular Humanism, is an american creation and thus based pretty strongly on the AMERICAN judo-christian ideas. seriously, why take issue with it?

furthermore, as someone who doesn't beleive in any orginized religion and would probably be classed right smack dab into the Secular Humanism thing, your comment was offensive and snarky.
i get it, the bible says that the supreme being of the judo christian faith is a jelouse god. Your comment had nothing to do with that.

AND i find it hard to believe that you can't see the hipocrasy of whats going on right now in this thread.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2009, 01:18:16 AM »
I believe if you consider the definition of a religion, secular humanism fits the bill to a T. A religion is simply a worldview about the larger, unprovable questions: origins, god, morality etc. Not traditionally "religious" != non-religious.

I do believe that the above is the fun semantic game to which I was referring.  

Balog

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2009, 01:24:50 AM »
I'm honestly puzzled why you are offended, and I say that in as non-snarky and inquisitive a tone as I can. I'm also puzzled as to what hypocrisy you're referring to.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Balog

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2009, 01:30:31 AM »
I do believe that the above is the fun semantic game to which I was referring.  

How do you define religion? Serious question. Many Eastern religions are atheistic, then there's the polytheistic sects, the Universalists etc etc. Or are you taking more of a "religion is whatever I think it is, 'cause I knows it when I sees it" approach?
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2009, 01:39:39 AM »
I'm honestly puzzled why you are offended, and I say that in as non-snarky and inquisitive a tone as I can. I'm also puzzled as to what hypocrisy you're referring to.

honestly puzzled? i think i've read your posts for long enough to know your not that dumb. the original comment you made that started this thing, had nothing to do, in any way, shape or form, with the biblical text that you later quoted, and had everything to do with being a snot about another form of philosophy, that you can't stand.

which is fine. i don't expect you or anyone else to love what someone else beleives, becuase i sure as hell don't love what you beleive. However, did you once see me snark about christianity being at fault  in this thread?

yet you seem to have absolutly NO issue in snarking about what someone else may or may not beleive in.
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

Balog

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2009, 01:50:19 AM »
My comment wasn't aimed at your beliefs. It was aimed at the public school curriculum. Seriously, I don't care what you believe. Atheist, Buddhist, Catholic, Mormon; I really don't care. All I care about (or object to) is the way public schools force one brand of religion down kid's throats, while pretending they are not. So unless you are involved in your local school board, my comment has nothing to do with you.

As for snark about Christianity, how many people have made dismissive "your invisible friend in the sky" comments about it, and there have been no repercussions? Answer: a lot.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

BridgeRunner

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2009, 01:51:00 AM »
I'm taking a practical approach that considers the mission of public schools and other public institutions.  If you want, you can keep on denigrating that approach because it differs from your own.  I don't mind.

The difference is I'm not trying to prove anything, or at least not anything new or novel.  You are.  A definition developed to make a point is not a good definition in and of itself.  It might be the basis for an argument about the worth of the definition, but then you're right back the aforementioned fun semantic games.  

Again, useful in some contexts.  If you want this thread to be about how all philosophies and approaches to life are equally "religious" and therefore every legal precedent regarding religion in public schools and similar institutions is totally wrong because they don't agree with your definition of "religion" and basically public schools all suck,  then I guess we can do that.  In fact, I think we already are.

I just think it's kind of silly.  =)

ETA: Fergot to bold.  I don't know much about effective emphasizing, but ah knows it when ah sees it.

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2009, 01:53:18 AM »


 =(
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Balog

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2009, 01:53:26 AM »
You didn't answer my question. What is your definition of a religion, aside from any questions about schooling or public policy? You seem to assume that there is some standard definition that everyone in the world knows and agrees on; I'd like to hear exactly what you think that definition is.

I actually am asking this as a serious question in an attempt to understand where you're coming from, not in an attempt to "win" a debate or something.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

BridgeRunner

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2009, 01:56:42 AM »
You didn't answer my question.

You noticed that, did you?

Balog

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2009, 02:11:16 AM »
...

Wow, and they accuse me of excessive snark.

I honestly am curious what you think. It makes it difficult to initiate a conversation with someone who insists on filtering every comment through a lense that assumes the worst of intentions, tones, and underlying motives then attacks the person speaking.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #62 on: December 17, 2009, 07:46:44 AM »
[Public school administrators] have a religion called Secular Humanism, and it is a jealous god.
Could someone explain how the above is an attack on all non-religious people?  ???

As for snark about Christianity, how many people have made dismissive "your invisible friend in the sky" comments about it, and there have been no repercussions? Answer: a lot.

A lot lot. 

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tyme

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #63 on: December 17, 2009, 07:58:13 AM »
Quote from: Balog
How do you define religion? Serious question. Many Eastern religions are atheistic, then there's the polytheistic sects, the Universalists etc etc. Or are you taking more of a "religion is whatever I think it is, 'cause I knows it when I sees it" approach?
Quote
A religion is simply a worldview about the larger, unprovable questions: origins, god, morality etc.

Religion is a social phenomenon designed to give you certainty about those things, when living with uncertainty is unbearable.

"Secular humanists" do not take anything to be absolutely true unless it can be proven in a logical sense.  Theories validated by repeatable scientific results are not absolute truths.  They are generally accepted, and are assumed to be true for practical purposes, but not for philosophical purposes.

Quote
As for snark about Christianity, how many people have made dismissive "your invisible friend in the sky" comments about it, and there have been no repercussions? Answer: a lot.

If I seriously expressed a belief in Enki, would you not be dismissive or consider me the slightest bit loopy?  That Mesopotamian pantheon was a religion that a lot of people (relatively speaking) presumably took seriously for a long time.

If Scientology, with Xenu and volcanoes and reincarnation and all that, had been started as a cult during the Roman Empire, do you think it would be broadly considered a cult today?  Or would it be accepted as a religion -- a dead or a minor one perhaps, but a religion nevertheless?

If I'm supposed to take your invisible friend in the sky seriously, why is that?  Why should I take yours seriously and not the Muslim God, specifically the version who wants muslims to displace (or possibly kill) all Jews and take back Israel?  Why yours and not Hinduism or Buddhism, nebulous conglomerations of all sorts of beliefs that can mean almost anything to anyone, to the point where people can't really agree whether some versions of those religions even involve a God?

If your contention is that I should take seriously a lot of mutually exclusive belief systems that all proclaim to be the truth (or at least the path to truth), I don't really know what to say to that.

If instead your contention is that I should take all religions seriously, because they're all social clubs that discuss allegories and are only trying to get at the truth, rather than taking things asserted in the Bible or by the Church as absolute truths, then I'm perfectly willing to go along with that.  However, then religious tomes and religious doctrines cease to have special significance, and you have to acknowledge for instance Nietzsche's works as having equal standing.  Religions then become glorified book or philosophy clubs that don't stray beyond at most a few specially chosen books.  I have not yet encountered someone I'd call "religious" who can stand the implications of this religion-as-an-allegory concept, no matter how much they claim that's how they view religion.  It always turns into a "my allegory is better than [random other allegory] because mine says it's better", at which point it's no longer an allegory; their religion has been elevated above all other religions and all other philosophies and myths, for no supportable reason.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 09:07:32 AM by tyme »
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roo_ster

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2009, 08:06:22 AM »
BW & BSL:

Balog's point is not new.

Balog's point was made by Jean-Jacques Rousseau*, Dewey, Holyoak, Compte*, and many others long before any of us walked the Earth.  Most/all of whom are considered hallowed philosophers in public education and Ed Dept circles.  Heck, JJR & his bloody philosophical children in the French Revolution did not metaphorically or semantically make a deity out of their SH, they took over churches and altars and such and had worship services for "Reason."  

From their perspective, Balog's "criticism" was a feature, not a bug, and a necessary steep for a technocratic future of indoctrinated people to be used as tools by the technocrats who tolerate no deity before their own.  

I spent time in the public school system and saw how effective they have been at inculcating their SH while denigrating other beliefs.  The 3 R's may not stick, but the public school system has marked sucess with all but the most grounded in their faith.  After all, kids are required by law to spend ~8 hrs/day, 5 days/wk, 9+mo/yr for 12+ years subject to SH indoctrination in the public schools.  Parents and clergy have a great difficulty competing with the established religion philosophy of the state SH technocrats when the SHs have the public fisc and law to beat folks over the head with.

To get wound around the axle about Balog pointing out the obvious makes as much sense as a Christian getting wound around the axle by a SH pointing out that God's Son had to be murdered for Christianity to exist and that God did not intervene to stop the murder of his Son, despite having the means to do so.  It is uncontroversial to anyone who has read the texts of either camp.








* The roots of SH are in continental Europe, not America.
Regards,

roo_ster

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BridgeRunner

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2009, 09:22:05 AM »
JF:  It is possible to attach the trappings of religion to a secular society.  In the present day, some Jews do it, as well as Unitarians, although quite a few Unitarians are not secular so much as disaffected with their Christian sect of origin.  This doesn't mean that secular = religious.  It means that some people have attempted to make a point about the validity of the secular.

B: I made the comments I wanted to make.  I think it's silly to declare that virtually everything = religion.  I think it's silly to dismiss the practical policy concerns of how to ensure public schools conform to the constitution.  I think it's really silly of you  to somehow decide on your own that I have a duty to engage in debate with you on your terms. 

To clarify still further:  No, I will not provide a dictionary definition of religion for you so that we can then spend all day arguing about the definitions of the words in the definition, which definition(s) apply, and how the mean secular people are really *exactly* the same as religious fundamentalists.  I'm just not going to do it.  I made my point.  You made fun of it.  Fine.  Whatever.

I'm still not going to debate with you about the nature of religion.  I choose to take the state of constitutional law as I find it.

Balog

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2009, 09:33:46 AM »
God Reason forbid I should expect someone on a discussion forum to answer questions about their philosophy or engage in debate. How dare I "dictate" to you by asking questions!  ;/ I see you still have no interest in being cordial. That's unfortunate, but I tried so your ill manners on not really my concern.

Tyme: I don't ask you to "take my/any beliefs seriously" I ask you to not mock them in front of me. That whole polite society thing, remember? Your little spiel is especially funny given the massive twist you got in your panties over Jfruser's comment that happened to include the word atheist.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

BridgeRunner

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2009, 10:11:10 AM »
God Reason forbid I should expect someone on a discussion forum to answer questions about their philosophy or engage in debate. How dare I "dictate" to you by asking questions!  ;/ I see you still have no interest in being cordial. That's unfortunate, but I tried so your ill manners on not really my concern.

So, what you are saying is that I have a social duty to provide a definition of religion to you so that you may then demand that I provide further definitions to you so that we can spend a day or so embroiled in a semantic debate, but it is very rude of me to suggest that you are "dictating" to me what I must do? 

I see.  

Thank you for insulting me in public this time, instead of by sending me a creepy private message inviting me to repent of my "rudeness" by doing exactly what you order me to do.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Drawing of Jesus Nets Second Grader Suspension and Mandatory Psych Eval
« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2009, 10:35:55 AM »
JD

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