Author Topic: Illegals  (Read 7484 times)

Art Eatman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,442
Illegals
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2006, 06:15:34 AM »
Several things:  First off, the history of homo sap is expansion into somebody else's turf.  Sometimes it's a power-trip thing, other times it's a population-growth thing.  Nowadays, in the U.S., it's an economic thing.  People come here because they're poor, broke and hungry.

Any population is most comfortable when the newbies assimilate and are thus much less likely to be regarded as "others".  That's the old biologically hard-wired thing all people have:  A wariness about otherness.  So, when any large number of newbies show up and don't make an effort to assimilate, problems will rise.  When there is a deliberate disregard for the manners and mores of an existing society, the problems are even greater.  Add in the fact of disregard for border-crossing laws and the emotions rise to what we're seeing today.   Exacerbating the whole thing is the tax-dollar cost burden on the existing citizenry.

Other contributory factors tie in with what Grampster said.  When I was born, the US population was just over 150 million.  Hey, folks, I feel like there are just way too many people!  Crowded beaches and highways and restaurants.  Crowded highways.  Crowded shopping malls.  Land prices out of sight.  And on and on.

We've used up a lot of our natural resources.  Oil, natural gas, iron ore, silver and gold.  We gotta import too much stuff that we need to try and maintain a standard of living for twice the number of people we had just 70-some years ago.

We got affluent, and quit having kids.  It's less that welfare keeps people out of the job market; it's more that we're real short of young people.   So, immigrants, whether legal or illegal.

Modern medicine has made it that my age group just isn't dying off fast enough, which is why investments in nursing homes and companies that make geriatric medicines and diapers for Old Farts are pretty good.

From a numbers standpoint, if you amnestied all illegals and fast-tracked legals and illegals into citizenship and got them into the Social Security system, there'd be a far better ratio of contributors to Old Farts.  Fact.  If you don't believe me, just look at the numbers.  The unfunded liabilities of the SS system is in the single-digit trillions at 4.6 and rising.  Medicare?  A "mere" $32.1 trillion.  That's trillion-with-a-t.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/3860772.html

You reckon maybe the Senate's vote might have been affected by those numbers?

"May you live in interesting times."

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

Guest

  • Guest
Illegals
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2006, 08:01:27 AM »
Quote from: fistful
Quote from: mercedesrules
Don't blame me for your ignorance of market anarchy. You're on your own with this "explanation".
That's fine.  Although with all property privately-owned, and with no law to keep folks in line, I would think people would be afraid to go anywhere
Market anarchy doesn't preclude a legal system (mutual promises, privately-arbitrated), but we shouldn't go into that here.
Quote
Quote
I am against all wlefare/socialism, BTW.
Oh, I know you are.  The problem is that when more immigrants come in to do low-wage jobs, few of them will assimilate and they and their children will change the political beliefs of our nation.  Unless Mexicans and Central Americans are more libertarian than I think, our freedoms will shrink even farther as we are loaded down with further government entitlements.  Which is why I mentioned France.  Is that what you want?
No. When I shoot my mouth off I am refering to an already-existing anarchy, not the status quo. I agree that many other changes need to accompany "open borders" (no borders). But, one has to push in the direction one believes to be the correct one....while discussing the thread topic.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,431
  • My prepositions are on/in
Illegals
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2006, 08:12:42 AM »
fair enough.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,431
  • My prepositions are on/in
Illegals
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2006, 08:56:59 AM »
Let me ramble a bit more about American Indians.  I know a bit more about the Plains tribes than others, so I'm probably projecting their characteristics onto the other tribes or nations.  The eastern tribes were of course different in some ways, and the Iroquois League and the "Five Civilized Tribes" may have been more organized than I suggested earlier.  

But in the seventeenth century, did either side really understand borders, immigration or citizenship as we know them?  The modern nation-state was still developing in Europe, from an earlier period when the continent was dotted with small kingdoms, principalities, duchies, free cities and the like.  Had they any visas or customs checks at the borders?  I don't know, although there were tarrifs and such.  

So if settlers wished to enter the New World legally, how would they have gone about it?  Making pacts, treaties, and alliances with the local nations or tribes would be one way, and that did happen, though I doubt it happened everywhere.  

If they wished to assimilate into the local cultures, how would they do it?  Well, first of all, they had no intention of doing this, but was there any place for them in the native cultures?  I doubt many would have been welcomed, except perhaps as slaves.  Like ancient tribes in the Old World, they considered themselves and their ways to be the best, and all others could go hang.  Now of course, we do know of cases where Whites assimilated into Native cultures, but these are few and far between.  

Any corrections are welcome, but my point is simply that illegal immigration may be a concept foreign to the Colonial/pre-Columbian milieu.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Illegals
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2006, 01:43:58 PM »
Quote from: Art
Does it really matter if the foreign laborers are in Bangladesh instead of Los Angeles?
Yes, it does.  A lot.

If it is done by illegal alien labor in LA, we have to provide that labor with USA/LA level of healthcare when the illegal alien gets injured.  When the illegal in LA gets pregnant and has an anchor baby, we pay for that, too, at USA costs, not Bangladesh costs.  When the anchor baby grows older and goes to school, we pay for that too.

If you have the choice between an illegal in LA or a Bangladeshi in Bangladesh, the rational choice is to outsource to Bangladesh.

Off Topic:
Quote from: WS
It seems that now the lines have been drawn I'm being treated like a mental defective for disagreeing.
No, not a mental defective.  I would argue that you have been poorly served and miseducated, however.  The old software saying, "garbage in, garbage out" applies.  Garbage input through the best mind/CPU/software will result only in garbage output, not something useful.

Winston Smith, I think you might benefit from reading some history texts written before 1970.  Keep an eye open for primary sources.  I like to haunt some of the bigger used book stores.  I find all sorts of terrific, out of print history books for a pittance.

I detected so many factual errors in your arguments, I can not hope to possibly address them all with the rigor they deserve.  Not error of opinion, but basic fact.

I feel like a doctor telling a patient they have been laboring under a handicap they were unaware of.

Good luck out west.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Guest

  • Guest
Illegals
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2006, 02:08:27 PM »
Quote from: jfruser
Quote from: Art
Does it really matter if the foreign laborers are in Bangladesh instead of Los Angeles?
Yes, it does.  A lot.

If it is done by illegal alien labor in LA, we have to provide that labor with USA/LA level of healthcare when the illegal alien gets injured.  When the illegal in LA gets pregnant and has an anchor baby, we pay for that, too, at USA costs, not Bangladesh costs.  When the anchor baby grows older and goes to school, we pay for that too.
I wonder why it is so easy for you and others to accept and defend blatant socialism, to which political mischief your advice is to adapt rather than to abolish.

garyk/nm

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 498
  • shovelbum
Illegals
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2006, 02:31:04 PM »
Quote from: mercedesrules
Quote from: jfruser
Quote from: Art
Does it really matter if the foreign laborers are in Bangladesh instead of Los Angeles?
Yes, it does.  A lot.

If it is done by illegal alien labor in LA, we have to provide that labor with USA/LA level of healthcare when the illegal alien gets injured.  When the illegal in LA gets pregnant and has an anchor baby, we pay for that, too, at USA costs, not Bangladesh costs.  When the anchor baby grows older and goes to school, we pay for that too.
I wonder why it is so easy for you and others to accept and defend blatant socialism, to which political mischief your advice is to adapt rather than to abolish.
Accept and defend?  This is this the system that is in place. Until such time as change is effected, this is what we have to work with. No amount of hoping, wishing or dreaming will change that.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,431
  • My prepositions are on/in
Illegals
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2006, 03:31:43 PM »
gary's right, mercedes.  Many of us would go nuts if we could have at the Federal budget with a pair of scissors.  However, there is something to be said for recognizing the reality of the situation.  Even so, I agree that jfruser's argument was one that attacked the wrong end of the problem, even though in my view both socialism and unenforced borders are morally and pragmatically wrong.

On the other hand (I think I'm on my third hand, now) we can't allow people to bleed to death in front of us, so someone's going to have to pay for healthcare.  The patient ought to pay, but that won't always happen, especially if he dies on the table.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Winston Smith

  • friends
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 498
  • Cheaper than a locksmith
    • My Photography
Illegals
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2006, 06:22:21 PM »
Quote
I detected so many factual errors in your arguments, I can not hope to possibly address them all with the rigor they deserve.  Not error of opinion, but basic fact.
Can you at least give me a few? I'd like to know where I'm miseducated, so to speak.

Quote
"garbage in, garbage out" applies.
Okay so it's not my fault I'm a mental defective?

And there's no excusing this:
Quote
you conceited bastard
Jack
APS #22
I'm eighteen years old. I know everything and I'm invincible.
Right?

Art Eatman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,442
Illegals
« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2006, 07:39:01 PM »
jfruser, I didn't make myself clear:  Whether a replacement worker is here or in Bangladesh, a U.S. citizen suffers if he loses his job to a lower-pay or below-scale person.  Whether he loses his job to an illegal or to a Bangladeshi, his job--for all practical purposes--has been "out-sourced".

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,431
  • My prepositions are on/in
Illegals
« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2006, 08:07:43 PM »
Quote from: Winston Smith
And there's no excusing this:
Quote
you conceited bastard
I agree.  That was uncalled for.

Then again, he was responding to a rather dismissive comment on your part.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,431
  • My prepositions are on/in
Illegals
« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2006, 08:21:55 PM »
Quote from: mercedesrules
 I see you've fully accepted the state's demonization of Muslims.
I'm still waiting for you to admit that this statement is - well - detached from reality.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Illegals
« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2006, 03:54:42 AM »
Quote from: Art Eatman
jfruser, I didn't make myself clear:  Whether a replacement worker is here or in Bangladesh, a U.S. citizen suffers if he loses his job to a lower-pay or below-scale person.  Whether he loses his job to an illegal or to a Bangladeshi, his job--for all practical purposes--has been "out-sourced".

Art
Art, the other side of the issue is that for every citizen who so loses his job, about 1000 other citizens benefit by having lower priced goods and services.  In some cases a company is able to continue employing people here only because they could outsource their most expensive operations.  If not for that the entire company would shut down.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Illegals
« Reply #63 on: May 19, 2006, 03:57:46 AM »
Quote from: mercedesrules
Quote from: jfruser
Quote from: Art
Does it really matter if the foreign laborers are in Bangladesh instead of Los Angeles?
Yes, it does.  A lot.

If it is done by illegal alien labor in LA, we have to provide that labor with USA/LA level of healthcare when the illegal alien gets injured.  When the illegal in LA gets pregnant and has an anchor baby, we pay for that, too, at USA costs, not Bangladesh costs.  When the anchor baby grows older and goes to school, we pay for that too.
I wonder why it is so easy for you and others to accept and defend blatant socialism, to which political mischief your advice is to adapt rather than to abolish.
Defend?  Nope, not from me will you read such.  On the contrary, I attack it whenever I can reasonably steer a conversation into an attack on socialism and paean to liberty and the market economy.

Accept?  Yes.  Taxation is not voluntary.  If I decide not to pay and persist (in the face of gov't force) in resisting gov't attemps to claim what gov't considers its due, I will end up barricaded with a lot of guys wearing ninja suits pointing guns at me.  It is hard to provide for a family when you have been burned beyond recognition by agents of the gov't.

So, what is one to do?  

Though not an alcoholic, the following helps one deal with the reality of gov't gone wild and beyond the bounds of the COTUS:
Quote
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

        --Reinhold Niebuhr
At the moment, I can not roll back the welfare state and the extortionate taxation gov't exacts to support it.  What I can do is work politically and morally towards that end and (this following point is key) ameliorate the effects the welfare state has on me, mine, and other citizens.

Perhaps an analogy is in order:
A patient is given a diagnosis of cancer that may eventually prove fatal.  The patient chooses to undergo chemotherapy and ratiation treatments, however, to make the cancer in them more tolerable.  The patient holds on to the hope that the treatment may not only make their predicament more tolerable, but that, hopefully, the treatments will allow him to hold on long enough to find a cure.

Is that patient "defending" the cancer?  Or is he doing the best he can given the cards he is dealt?
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Illegals
« Reply #64 on: May 19, 2006, 04:03:23 AM »
Quote from: Art Eatman
jfruser, I didn't make myself clear:  Whether a replacement worker is here or in Bangladesh, a U.S. citizen suffers if he loses his job to a lower-pay or below-scale person.  Whether he loses his job to an illegal or to a Bangladeshi, his job--for all practical purposes--has been "out-sourced".

Art
Yep, that job is gone & the guy who used to do it has to find work elsewhere.

I took that as given.

The two situations are the same to the guy who lost his job...but not to the rest of us, especially us taxpayers.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Art Eatman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,442
Illegals
« Reply #65 on: May 19, 2006, 06:01:44 AM »
Rabbi, I'm fully aware of the benefits to the consumer.  Hell's bells, I are one! Smiley  

What concerns me as we go through this transitionary period in world trade and all the changes that are happening is, "If we keep replacing highly-paid folks with low-paid folks, whence cometh the money with which to consume?"  WalMart (et al) prices are low, but so much other stuff keeps getting more expensive.  Anything which is energy-dependent is rising in cost to the producr and price to the consumer.

You've noticed the news articles about fears of serious unrest in Mexico?  And the politics, leading up to the July elections?  I don't foresee any slowdown in north-bound folks; if anything, the converse.  You think we have problems now?  Just wait!

Interesting times...

Art
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Illegals
« Reply #66 on: May 19, 2006, 08:55:21 AM »
Quote from: Winston Smith
Quote
I detected so many factual errors in your arguments, I can not hope to possibly address them all with the rigor they deserve.  Not error of opinion, but basic fact.
Can you at least give me a few? I'd like to know where I'm miseducated, so to speak.
The first whites here, the ones who founded this country, were "illegal" immigrants to this nation.
Actually, they were as legal as you can be in those times, as can be seen at the Avalon Project.

Also, most of the FFs were born in America (with the exception of Alexander Hamilton).

Did the American Indians grant us amnesty?
The entire concept of codified law in general and amnesty in particular were unknown to most American Indians.  Most were literally stone age hunter/gatherer tribes, some more sophisticated than others.

Did the mexicans when we took the southwest?
Not applicable.  See Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

Also maybe the problem is more overpriced goods than too-high wages. And where do the overpriced goods come from? too high wages...
The market economy (with some ham-handed intervention by .gov) usually determines price.  The component of cost attributable to labor varies with the product.  For instance, the labor component of, say, lawn mowing is higher relative to the labor component of petroleum or iceberg lettuce.

...I'm pretty sure that smallpox blankets broke some sort of law.
I have never, in my formal & informal studies of history, come across a primary source indicating that there was an organized effort to spread smallpox through the North American Indian population.

There are some other objections, as well:
1. Germ theory did not exist when this was supposed to occur.  
Code:
# van Leeuwenhoek, Anton (1670s)
# Semmelweis, Ignaz (1840s)
# Pasteur,Louis (1860s)
# Lister, Joseph (1860s)
# Koch, Robert (1870s)
# Iwanowski, Dmitri (1890s)
# Fleming, Alexander (1920s)
2. Even if it is given that the colonists waged biological warfare against the indians, why smallpox?  Why not influenza, bubonic plague, measels, or something else?  Or do we also have to assume that smallpox was determined by early colonists to be the one (of several) diseases which North America had not been exposed?

3. Does it not make more sense to attribute that the indians contracted smallpox the same way that europeans contracted plague and other diseases that originated in the Orient: through human contact & commerce?

4. Was there similar counter-warfare conducted by the indians against the colonists, since the colonists contracted diseases heretofore unknown to Europe?  Were the indians pushing syphillic whores on the colonists since the indians--somehow--figured out that syphillis was new to europeans?

It does not pass the sniff test outside of university departments named "*-studies" or PC textbooks where history is boiled down to Sacajewia, Harriet Tubman, and the Buffalo Soldiers.

This myth rates right up there with the myth that Cleopatra was black and that sub-saharan african engineers discovered and implemented manned flight.

Laws make criminals.
Our lawyers can speak up, but there are essentially two kinds of laws: laws against things that are in and of themselves wrong (murder, rape, theft, etc.) and laws making certain acts/things illegal (zoning, nusiance weed ordinances, transporting vegetable matter across state lines, etc).

What makes me entitled to live here in this land of milk and honey and not them?
I assume you are a US citizen.  All others have no right to even step foot on US soil, just as I have no right to bust in your apartment door and pop a squat in your living room.

Who am I to exclude them?
You are a citizen of the USA, a sovereign nation.  US citizens, through their representatives, have the authority to let in whom we will, in whatever proportion we want, from wherever we want, with whatever skills/qualifications we dictate...or no one at all.  It is our call to make, not anybody else's.

These people pay taxes. It's just in the form of working for so low wages so employers can charge cheaper prices.
Lower wages relative to someone else doing the same job is not equivalent to paying taxes.  It is more in the nature of a subsidy to the employer by the taxpayers.

Those selfsame hospitals that are being closed due to illegal immigrants were probably built and painted and cleaned by illegal immigrants.
Assume that what you write is true.  So, it is OK to cause the county hospitals to go tango uniform and bleed the local taxpayers dry, as long as some illegal alien, sometime, scrubbed one of the toilets?

The great likelihood is that those hospitals closed were not built with illegal alien labor, as they were built before the great post-1965 influx.  The influx led many localities to close public hospitals and private hospitals to go bankrupt:
Quote
Bankrupt hospital serving Hispanic immigrants closing
Submitted by Editor on August 16, 2004 - 16:00. Health

Los Angeles, AP - A financially troubled hospital that served as a principal care destination for Hispanic immigrants must now close its doors and it has many concerned the closure will overwhelm resources in the city's remaining emergency rooms.

A federal bankruptcy judge Friday ordered the Elastar Community Hospital in East Los Angeles to shut down. The 80-year-old hospital has racked up more than $10 million in debt and it couldn't afford to pay its roughly 400 workers.

The hospital filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection last fall, but it didn't work. It has since been placed under Chapter 7 protection, which allows for a court-appointed trustee to begin liquidating its assets.

Elastar is the third hospital with an emergency room to close in the county this year.

"We cannot stand any more closures in an emergency system capacity in Los Angeles - this system is on the brink of absolute chaos," said Jim Lott, the executive vice president of the Hospital Assn. of Southern California.
Lemme see, 2004-80=1924.  41 years before the flood across the borders started.

When my family visited Big Bend last year, we brought our 6MO boy with.  Many times, in conversation with folks who lived nearby & on the way, the conversation turned to kids and the birthing of same.  

When dining in the Reata restaurant in Alpine, Texas, we had a pleasant conversation with a BP officer & his pregnant wife.  We learned that the closest labor & delivery ward in Midland, Texas was a 3 1/2 hour trip.  Practically, if you wanted your baby born in a hospital, it had to be scheduled for induction or ceasarian.

A similar conversation was drummed up with the fellow who runs the Starlight Theater (restaurant) down on the border.  His wife was was expecting and they planned on a home birth.  If she wanted to birth her child in a hospital with a L&D ward & real, live OB/GYNs, she would have to drive 5 hours from the border to Midland.

These hospital closings have serious, deleterious effects on American citizens.

And when I talk about the Mexican Southwest being taken, I mean from the Mexicans. Texas, California, and other states were once part of the Mexican Empire. Look up: James Polk, Mexican American War.
Yep, I have.  Wars have consequences.  If you provoke one to rally popular support and lose, you usually end up taking it in the face.  A more contemporary example would be the Faulkland Islands War.  Yet another junta of latin american strongmen thought a military expedition to carve a little territory off an anglo country would be just the thing to solidify their political position.  They choose...poorly.

And from whom did the Mexicans take Mexico?  The Spanish.  From whom did the Spanish take Mexico?  The collection of indian tribes...with the help of other indian tribes who did not like being ruled by the Aztecs.

I mean, seriously, remember the Alamo, glorious battle fought so that Texans could own the slaves that the Mexicans didn't want them to.
Yes, the Mexican gov't had laws against slavery, but did not enforce them on anglos or mexicans.  Kinda like our laws against employing illegal aliens.

You don't think there might have been more to it, since the vast majority of Texas did not own slaves?  Maybe freedom of religion?  A dislike of Mexican troops disarming Texans?  Or maybe that they feared Santa Ana might do to them what he did to Zacatecas?
Quote
On May 11, 1835, Francisco García's militia, was defeated at the Battle of Guadalupe by the forces of General Antonio López de Santa Anna. After his brutal victory, Santa Anna's forces ransacked the city of Zacatecas and the rich silver mines at Fresnillo. He then granted his soldiers two days of rape and pillage in which 2000 non-combatants were killed. Soon after this battle, President Santa Anna began calling himself "The Napoleon of the West".
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Quote from: Winston Smith
Quote
"garbage in, garbage out" applies.
Okay so it's not my fault I'm a mental defective?
You seem to be especially keen on attributing to others a negative attitude toward yourself.  Persist in this and you very well may be successful.

I'll be a bit more blunt in what I think the deal is:  sh-t in your brains, not sh-t for brains.  The brains seem to be working, but they have been fed ersatz facts rather than the real thing.

Why do I think this?  Because you have some facility when expressing yourself in text.  This is not a perfect proxy for mental facility, but it does point in that direction.  Then you use that facility along with crap data to come to your conclusions.

For example, Ptolomy was a sharp fellow.  But he was completely wrong in his conception of the solar system (geocentric).  He just did not have good enough data.  Fast forward to Copernicus, Kepler, and Galileo.  They were able to get it right (heliocentric), not because they were smart & Ptolomy was dumb, but because they were able to feed their minds with quality data.

Like I wrote before, older books (especially contemporaneous accounts), tend to be freer of politically correct nonsense such as the "Cleopatra was black," and "the colonists intentionally sold smallpox-ridden blankets," and "America was full of happy, in-touch-with-nature indigeonous folk who rarely warred on each other."

Quote from: Winston Smith
And there's no excusing this:
Quote
you conceited bastard
Yep, it is best to keep communication cordial, no matter what you may think to yourself.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Illegals
« Reply #67 on: May 19, 2006, 10:25:45 AM »
Quote from: Art Eatman
Rabbi, I'm fully aware of the benefits to the consumer.  Hell's bells, I are one! Smiley  

What concerns me as we go through this transitionary period in world trade and all the changes that are happening is, "If we keep replacing highly-paid folks with low-paid folks, whence cometh the money with which to consume?"  WalMart (et al) prices are low, but so much other stuff keeps getting more expensive.  Anything which is energy-dependent is rising in cost to the producr and price to the consumer.

You've noticed the news articles about fears of serious unrest in Mexico?  And the politics, leading up to the July elections?  I don't foresee any slowdown in north-bound folks; if anything, the converse.  You think we have problems now?  Just wait!

Interesting times...

Art
Art, we have been transitioning for like 30 years.  Remember all those steel mills around Pittsburg?  I doubt there is one left.  They were some of the most highly paid workers in America.  And those pay scales ruined the companies so now no one works for a steel co in Pittsburg (probably an overstatement here but you get the point).  Meanwhile P'burg is not a depressed slum but a city with a large base of medical research, high tech, etc.
It isnt a question of whether we outsource those jobs or not.  We could more easily legislate the tides.  It is a question of whether we can create policies that will ease that process, lower taxes and regulation chiefly.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

Guest

  • Guest
Illegals
« Reply #68 on: May 19, 2006, 12:25:25 PM »
And there's no excusing this:

Quote
you conceited bastard
The word I was looking for was arrogant.  You want to be taken seriously when answering discourse with this:?

Quote
Hahah "better," oh you moral objectivists!
I'm sticking to my guns on this one. Arrogant.  

sorry about delayed response, i've been without ISP