Post by: Ukraine Train on June 14, 2005, 11:14:51 PM
Post by: Guest on June 15, 2005, 02:14:42 AM
The problem is that there is a fixed demand for gas. The only way that people are going to need less gas is by doing all those touchy-feely conservation things like buying hybrids and carpooling. Obviously the price of gas hasnt gotten high enough for people to resort to such things enmass just yet.
Post by: TarpleyG on June 15, 2005, 04:44:00 AM
Greg
Post by: cfabe on June 15, 2005, 04:58:12 AM
Post by: mhdishere on June 15, 2005, 05:06:06 AM
As others have noted, boycotting one gas company wouldn't matter, you'd buy your gas elsewhere. You'd hurt that one company but help the others.
Adjusted for inflation gas prices were higher in the 80's than they are now.
If you want to lower prices you have to do one of two things, decrease demand or increase supply. We can decrease demand by all the conservation methods, or we can increase supply by drilling in Alaska (as we PLANNED to do) or by increasing refinery capability (because cars don't run on crude oil). Either of these will get the eco-nuts in a tizzy, but the US is NOT going to go back to horses and oxen.
Post by: charby on June 15, 2005, 05:09:49 AM
Post by: Werewolf on June 15, 2005, 05:15:55 AM
mhdishere got it right when he said:
Quote
If you want to lower prices you have to do one of two things, decrease demand or increase supply
unfortunately since oil is a finite resource even if demand is decreased thru conservation supply is still reduced as the oil is depleted.Which side of the supply/demand equation gets reduced quicker will determine if prices go down or up. Even with conservation if the supply goes down enough prices will still go up.
In addition the US is not the only demander of oil in the world. If we conserve that just leaves more for other countries and net demand may not go down at all.
IMO we've got to eliminate our dependence on oil as a fuel and that will take new technologies. Best bet now is fuel cells that depend on hydrogen but until some one comes up with a cheap way to produce hydrogen that's gonna be a non-starter.
Who knows maybe there'll be a break through in fusion power reactors and we'll all get Mr. Fusion power plants in our cars. HEY! Anything's possible...
Post by: InfidelSerf on June 15, 2005, 05:58:22 AM
It was on a week or so ago.
It was interesting to think what would happen if a major hurricane took out one of the largest oil refineries in the nation.
But the show was rather sensationalist.
Did anyone else watch it?
Post by: Iapetus on June 15, 2005, 07:35:36 AM
There was a big protest a couple of years ago, with many people boycotting petrol stations, and fuel truck drivers striking (and in some cases blockading refinaries, etc), which forced the government to back down on a planned fuel tax increase. So popular protests can have an effect.
(Well, for a while. Petrol is now more expensive than then, and a recent attempt at making another nation-wide protest never really got anywhere).
Post by: grampster on June 15, 2005, 08:23:40 AM
What we really need are courageous patriots to run for public office and tell the extremists on the environmental side to take a flying jump at a rolling donut. (Notice I said extremists!!) I'm an environmentalist, but I also live in the real world. Then we need to vigorously exploit our natural resources in a thoughful way. In the meantime, I think it's worthy for government to give a hand up to entreprenuers who are trying to find marketable energy alternitives. It will, in the end, benefit all of us, so we all should support actions such as this.
End of Sermon!
Post by: Sindawe on June 15, 2005, 09:43:46 AM
I concur that we as a nation should do what we can to stop using oil as a fuel for our vehicles. These folks http://unitednuclear.com/h2new.htm have an interesting approach, using current engine tech fueled by H2, and offering a solar powered H2 generator, should they ever come to market.
Post by: jefnvk on June 15, 2005, 09:52:27 AM
Post by: client32 on June 15, 2005, 10:08:07 AM
Quote from: Blackburn
Our city trucks are being converted to running on biodiesel
I was under the impression that there wasn't any conversion neccessary to use biodesiel. Any diesel engine could run with it.I am taking an interest in watching this. Especially with diesel engines advertising 50mpg.
Post by: mhdishere on June 15, 2005, 10:38:19 AM
A hundred or so years ago people probably looked at their transportation issues and said "Where are we going to get enough horses? How are we going to grown enough food for them? And if we take care of the first two what are we going to do with all that horse manure?"
Within a single lifetime the horse was relegated to sport/hobby use or a few people who use them for farming and transportation because they choose to (like the Amish).
Right now oil is plentiful and moderately cheap, lets face it very few people stay home because they can't afford gas even with today's prices. When it becomes less so technology will provide an alternative, and the gasoline engine will go the way of the horse. I have no more idea of what that technology will be than the average horse-user had in the late 1800's.
Post by: Fjolnirsson on June 15, 2005, 10:42:18 AM
Post by: HForrest on June 15, 2005, 11:33:06 AM
Why doesn't Bob Lazar just make an antigravity car with Element 115?
Post by: SteveS on June 15, 2005, 11:37:49 AM
Quote from: jefnvk
Haven't we already beaten this to death on THR? The oil is out there, we aren't gonna run out soon, if companies start drilling for the not-the-cheapest to drill oil. And if the political climate warms up, and we tell the tree-hugger where to shove it.
It isn't just the tree-huggers. Here in MI, gas companies wanted to drill under the Great Lakes for natural gas. The tree huggers convinced the previously rational MUCC and the Republican gov. Engler that we couldn't have slant-drilling under the great lakes. They protrayed directional drilling as some kind of dangerous, experimental technique that would result in a catastrophe. Never mind the fact that directional drilling has been around for years and is being used all over the world. Never mind the fact that Ontario is drilling under the Great Lakes for gas.People are too easily swayed by junk science. For the record, I am not a mining expert. I got this information from my mostly liberal father that had worked for some years for a mining company and had taught courses in mining engineering at MTU.
Post by: thorn on June 15, 2005, 12:06:19 PM
use less gas. that is all you can do
Post by: Ukraine Train on June 15, 2005, 12:10:48 PM
Post by: stevelyn on June 15, 2005, 12:42:03 PM
Post by: thorn on June 15, 2005, 01:10:19 PM
Quote from: Ukraine Train
Maybe I'll just get a motorcycle.
do it!!! i love my bike. plus easier parking, carpool lanes, and CA- we love it- LANE SPLITTING!!!!
of course , depending on your location this could all be moot.
in the rainy season,riding can be a real drag
Post by: Sindawe on June 15, 2005, 03:08:49 PM
Post by: Waitone on June 15, 2005, 04:03:25 PM
In short we hinder the development of high density energy resources in favor of high expense low density energy. We favor development of alternative forms of energy that haven't a snowball's chance in hell of being a viable alternative to fossil fuels. We sit on the world's largest supplies of shale oil yet get huffy when the price of oil approaches the breakeven point. We have more proven coal reserves than any other countries yet we put it off limits because of environmental concerns.
I've no sympathy. We're schitzoid when it comes to energy. We sit in the middle of plenty all the while scaring ourselves into paralysis of action. Make the economic pain bad enough and we will act but it will require the wholesale slaughter of sacred cows.
Post by: jefnvk on June 15, 2005, 04:57:30 PM
Quote
I got this information from my mostly liberal father that had worked for some years for a mining company and had taught courses in mining engineering at MTU.
Does he still work up there? That is where I am attending school.Yeah, I know that people can be swayed. I m often conviced that he first opinion people hear on some subject is often the one that they will take, and defend bitterly.
Post by: brimic on June 15, 2005, 09:52:59 PM
Unfortunately the downsides of such an action would not be enough to justify $125/ gallon gasoline.
Post by: Nathaniel Firethorn on June 16, 2005, 01:53:08 AM
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sell your SUV. drive less.
use less gas. that is all you can do
And live in a place where you can walk to meet your daily needs.use less gas. that is all you can do
I really like traditional small towns. But they're being forced into extinction.
- NF
Post by: Werewolf on June 16, 2005, 05:12:56 AM
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Our economy is energy dependent. Nothing will be done until the economy starts tanking as a result of energy costs.
^^Very, Very TRUE...But of course - by then - it will already be too late...
Post by: mfree on June 16, 2005, 05:52:03 AM
Mix that with a herd of small nuclear plants and some judicious hydro/wind/tidal power plants and we're all set. Later on we can manage with a heard of nuclear powered hydrogen generation plants, or maybe, just maybe, once there's a nuke site in every county across the US the people can stop being so exasperatingly paranoid about it and we can have electric cars with point-source recharging from small isotope generators onboard. Run the car out of juice? Just sit an hour or so and it's back on full charge ready to go. Heh, it'd bring back the advent of the sit-down restaurant too :-D
Post by: SteveS on June 16, 2005, 07:52:34 AM
Quote from: jefnvk
Quote
I got this information from my mostly liberal father that had worked for some years for a mining company and had taught courses in mining engineering at MTU.
Does he still work up there? That is where I am attending school.