Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Monkeyleg on December 28, 2010, 07:55:28 PM
-
Of all of the products I sell on my site, none are as problematic as ACOG sights. It's not because they're defective, as they're not. I have yet to see a defective ACOG, and between the two distributors I work with on ACOG's, they've only seen one in the last several years.
The problem is with certain buyers, the military wannabe's who will spend $1500 on a sight that's built for war, one they'll take to the range a couple times a year, and gaze lustfully at the sight the rest of the year. They want the machismo of war, but also the perfection of a safe queen.
I've now had one too many buyers call to complain that his ACOG sight is marked up or scratched or whatever, so I've posted this notice on every model's page:
PLEASE READ: TRIJICON ACOG SIGHTS ARE MADE FOR THE MILITARY. THEY'RE MADE FOR WAR. THEY ARE NOT MADE TO LOOK PRETTY. SOME COME FROM THE FACTORY WITH SLIGHT COSMETIC DEFECTS. THIS IS TO BE EXPECTED, JUST AS AR15 MAGAZINES ARE OFTEN BLEMISHED. IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING MORE COSMETICALLY PERFECT, YOU MIGHT WANT TO CONSIDER ONE OF THE CHEAPER ACOG CLONES THAT ARE MADE TO LOOK COOL.
-
Of all of the products I sell on my site, none are as problematic as ACOG sights. It's not because they're defective, as they're not. I have yet to see a defective ACOG, and between the two distributors I work with on ACOG's, they've only seen one in the last several years.
The problem is with certain buyers, the military wannabe's who will spend $1500 on a sight that's built for war, one they'll take to the range a couple times a year, and gaze lustfully at the sight the rest of the year. They want the machismo of war, but also the perfection of a safe queen.
I've now had one too many buyers call to complain that his ACOG sight is marked up or scratched or whatever, so I've posted this notice on every model's page:
PLEASE READ: TRIJICON ACOG SIGHTS ARE MADE FOR THE MILITARY. THEY'RE MADE FOR WAR. THEY ARE NOT MADE TO LOOK PRETTY. SOME COME FROM THE FACTORY WITH SLIGHT COSMETIC DEFECTS. THIS IS TO BE EXPECTED, JUST AS AR15 MAGAZINES ARE OFTEN BLEMISHED. IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING MORE COSMETICALLY PERFECT, YOU MIGHT WANT TO CONSIDER ONE OF THE CHEAPER ACOG CLONES THAT ARE MADE TO LOOK COOL.
*Nods sagely* You are dealing with the AR-15 owners who pitch a hissy fit if the anodizing isn't perfect and matching on their rifle. They are also the people who will put velcro or some other padding over their brass deflector so it doesn't get marked up. And they get obsessed with their web gear (it has to match color shades EXACTLY!!!!11!!!)
-
Finishes not matching other pieces of equipment are acceptable, but I would be miffed at $1500 for an optic with scratches and such.
I'm not at all fussy about marks and scratches on my gear AS LONG AS I PUT THEM THERE. I am fussy about NIB items (not refurbed or used) with marks and such, especially stuff that costs a mortgage payment.
I can't say I blame them for returning the sights.
Chris
-
*Nods sagely* You are dealing with the AR-15 owners who pitch a hissy fit if the anodizing isn't perfect and matching on their rifle. They are also the people who will put velcro or some other padding over their brass deflector so it doesn't get marked up. And they get obsessed with their web gear (it has to match color shades EXACTLY!!!!11!!!)
I have no AR, but I do have an AR lower I bought on clearance. It is a factory second. The defect in it is so slight that it literally took me three days to find it. On Arfcom people were saying that it is so horrible they can't bear to look at it. One guy said it "turned his stomach". What is it? The mag release button hole is milled at a very tiny angle from vertical. Functionality is not affected.
That said, mtnbkr has a point. Something that costs that kind of money better look good out the box. That lower cost me $50 shipped.
-
I loved my acog. I wish i could afford a nicely built AR with one on it. Alas.
-
I can't say I blame them for returning the sights.
Then don't buy an ACOG. At least now I'm warning people. It's the nature of the product. I took a $100 hit with this transaction, between the credit card fees and shipping.
The ECOS sights are especially prone to marks, although they can almost always been brushed out with your fingertip.
I will bet you $100 that this sight comes back to me with some finger marks on the soft finish of the dark earth material, and nothing else.
-
Don't worry, long before I spend $1500 on a tacticool optic, I would spend that money on a laundry list of vintage S&W revolvers (can you get me a good deal on a K32?). :D
Could you post a pic of what you're talking about though? In your first post, it sounded like the ACOGs were coming out of the package with actual scratches, but in your second post they sound merely smudged. Which is it?
Chris
-
FTR, when I was in the service and we got Trijicon products from the manufacturer NIB, it was pretty much perfect.
After being out on deployment and getting jumped a few times, not so much, there would be cosmetic blemishes a-go-go. They were very robust and kept working, though. I had very few actaully break.
I am lead to wonder if your Trijicon products are not factory refurbs, returns, etc.
-
So, those handsome-looking, cheap ACOG ripoffs that are not as good but look unblemished - what are those? If I were to choose The Path of the Mall Ninja, which mall-ninja ACOGoid would you recommend?
-
I am lead to wonder if your Trijicon products are not factory refurbs, returns, etc.
Absolutely, positively not. Never.
I get these complaints most often with the ECOS dark earth finish. The finish is almost like clay, and has some knap to it. It does show fingerprints readily, but they brush out.
Here's one of the ECOS models:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gunshopfinder.com%2Ftrijicon%2Facog_ta01ecos.jpg&hash=d378c0e69d84f6f9b7265b4ef76b4a7359d23088)
I should have recognized this guy as a flake when he called the first time. He was looking for one model of ACOG that I didn't have in stock, so he decided to buy a TA01 ECOS. If I'm spending $1400, I buy what I have in mind, not what's available.
He got the TA01 ECOS, but realized that the TA31 ECOS had more features, and he obviously wanted more features (such as the dual illumination), so he accused me of not fully explaining the differences between all of the models. I checked my phone logs and saw that I'd had two conversations with him on 12/12 (my birthday), one at 10:17 am and another at 5:15 pm. Both were about 15-20 minutes. I distinctly remember explaining the fiber optics, reticle choices, RMR vs. Docter Optic red dots, external fixed sights...IOW, everything.
I had him send the TA01 ECOS back for an exchange, but did charge him 2.5% for restocking, which is half of what I usually charge. Still, he was mad that he had to pay the 2.5% plus shipping costs for the TA31 ECOS.
I sent it to him UPS, and it was supposed to arrive late last week. UPS "rescheduled" delivery to yesterday. The guy called me on Thursday, Friday and Monday wondering where his ACOG was. I told him UPS had "rescheduled" delivery. He got mad and said he'd worked for UPS for several years and they were always on time. He was implying that I was lying.
I'd like to take this ACOG and stick it...
OK, that's a second rant. It doesn't count. ;)
MB, Bushnell makes an ACOG clone for under $200.
-
12/12 (my birthday)
Happy birthday! :)
-
Here it is.
http://bushnell.com/products/scopes/riflescopes/reddot/730132P/
It's only a 1x red dot reflex scope though that has the needless complication of an external shell similar to an ACOG. No tritium illumination, or fiber optic light pipe for daytime either.
My main problem with Trijicon products is that whenever I have enough money saved up for one, I just go buy some whole other rifle or handgun, or an entire slew of accessories I need plus ammo instead. When the price of one of the $1400-odd ACOG could get me a whole other rifle, and one that's pretty high-end too, I just can't pull the trigger on it.
Monkeyleg has the BEST prices on the net. I've never found anyone who beats him, especially when you include an honest "to your door" price that includes shipping and handling. He's so low, he's been in trouble with some of the manufacturers, and has to do the "can't publish the price"-thing.
And even at his best price, I can still put together one hell of a custom AR for that much.
I know it is the rule of thumb that top-tier quality optics cost as much or MORE than the rifle they sit on, but I can't ever completely convince myself of it. =| It's parroted as some sort of sage advice, which I wholly recognize may well be true, but I've got this nagging suspicion it's also got a bit of an elitist factor to it. That people enjoy paying that much for their optics because it provides some sort of exclusivity.
It feels like buying a $40,000 car, and then paying another $40,000 for the stereo and GPS, and I just can't shake that.
I dunno. I guess I'd build up a flattop AR and save for an ACOG if I could see some sort of accounting that it actually costs Trijicon a fair chunk of their distributor price to produce these. I've just got this nagging (admittedly unfounded) suspicion that a $1400 ACOG costs them like $600 or so, Uncle Sam gets them for $700, and Trijicon is laughing all the way to the bank on their .civ sales because they've got the recognition and the "mojo".
Part of my suspicion is based on how their only serious competition for similar products is ELCAN, and they have even fewer .civ sales and similar products are priced even higher, like their 1-4X DR Spectre scope.
-
AJ, not all of the ACOG sights are $1400. There are $800 sights that do the same thing as the $1400 models, but don't have the added reflex sight on top, the quick-release base, the iron sights and the dual illumination. Some guys just have to get all the bells and whistles, just like the guys who buy the night vision compatible EOTech sights, even though they don't own any night vision equipment.
Speaking of EOTech, their sights have flawless finishes, but I suspect they're made more for civilians than military.
-
Yeah... I know. But when I get $800 together, I get a handgun or some cheaper thing like another AK. :-X And I'd at least want one with the tritium and the light-pipe on it, which I think are all back in the $1000+ range. IIRC, the $800 ones are tritium only.
From a small windfall work bonus this fall, I just dropped a bit less than a grand on a 12ga Saiga, drums, mags, and 992r compliance pistol grip and folding stock conversion parts. (And that CTC Laser for my P32 I got from you.) For the price close to the least expensive ACOG, I got a drum-fed Kalashnikov shotgun, and accessories. (W00t!)
I can never get past the fact that when I even get close to $1k, that means a "whole other firearm", and not just an accessory for one firearm. It's like being a car collector, and you get enough together for some uh.... expensive tires you want or whatnot, and then realize you have enough for a whole other car instead.
More optics are certainly in my future for sure though. My eyes aren't getting any better.
I need to just go for one of your EOTechs and magnifier packages. Still about half the price of the least expensive ACOG's, and the versatility of being able to do 1x and then flip over to 3, 5, or 7x just seems much more practical to me.
-
This is so incredibly over my head... I don't own any single firearm I paid over $450 for.
At any rate. Doesn't anybody else make a low power scope with a light pipe? Are you pretty much stuck with battery powered red dots in the lower price ranges?
-
For what it's worth, Dick, the ACOG I bought from you has a few dings and scratches in it. I put them all there myself, though, and one or two while doing something that would've broken any other scope. I have zero intention of returning it, ever. =)
-
This guy,
I should have recognized this guy as a flake when he called the first time. He was looking for one model of ACOG that I didn't have in stock, so he decided to buy a TA01 ECOS. If I'm spending $1400, I buy what I have in mind, not what's available.
He got the TA01 ECOS, but realized that the TA31 ECOS had more features, and he obviously wanted more features (such as the dual illumination), so he accused me of not fully explaining the differences between all of the models. I checked my phone logs and saw that I'd had two conversations with him on 12/12 (my birthday), one at 10:17 am and another at 5:15 pm. Both were about 15-20 minutes. I distinctly remember explaining the fiber optics, reticle choices, RMR vs. Docter Optic red dots, external fixed sights...IOW, everything.
reminds me of this:
Language warning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evr_tP9cJWY
-
For what it's worth, Dick, the ACOG I bought from you has a few dings and scratches in it. I put them all there myself, though, and one or two while doing something that would've broken any other scope. I have zero intention of returning it, ever.
The horror! Now you won't have the nicest ACOG at the range. I'll bet this ex-customer of mine would give you a hard time.
The Youtube video: :D :D :D
-
I know it is the rule of thumb that top-tier quality optics cost as much or MORE than the rifle they sit on, but I can't ever completely convince myself of it.
It ain't bullshit. If you want a near indestructible magnified optic, then the Trijicon ACOG is one of the most cost efficient optics you can buy. Yes, that's right, I said that. Because you aren't going to find another magnified optic with the durability of an ACOG for the cost of an ACOG.
AJ, not all of the ACOG sights are $1400. There are $800 sights that do the same thing as the $1400 models, but don't have the added reflex sight on top, the quick-release base, the iron sights and the dual illumination
Want an ACOG with a reddot? Buy a cheaper, basic ACOG model, put it in a LaRue base, and add an Aimpoint micro with a LaRue angle mount
-
Want an ACOG with a reddot? Buy a cheaper, basic ACOG model, put it in a LaRue base, and add an Aimpoint micro with a LaRue angle mount.
Oddly enough, Trijicon had an ACOG with their own reflex red dot sight on it, a less expensive red dot than the Docter Optic or RMR. It didn't sell. It had a plastic housing and just wasn't durable.
No doubt the guys in combat noticed the difference, but the shooters here at home didn't notice until word filtered back from Iraq or Afghanistan. I'm sure my recent favorite customer would never have considered that model.
-
So far I've been poor, only afforded a 2x mini-ACOG to stick in my carry handle. It has been there 10 years. I painted it right along with the rest of the gun with bowflage. What dings? I do need to send the thing back and get a new tritium lamp. What do you suppose the turnaround is on that?
-
Dick, fire your customer.
-
Of all of the products I sell on my site,
Can you get Ultimak rails?
-
I don't see any distributors who carry Ultimak. Sorry.
-
Something getting scratched do to use is one thing, it is another if it comes like that from the factory. Is it really so wrong for something you own to look how you want it to? Are we seriously complaining about people who like there equipment to look uniform? Would you complain about someone who complains about getting a car directly ordered from the factory and it came with scratches on it or parts that didn't match in color?
-
I've now had one too many buyers call to complain that his ACOG sight is marked up or scratched or whatever, so I've posted this notice on every model's page:
PLEASE READ: TRIJICON ACOG SIGHTS ARE MADE FOR THE MILITARY. THEY'RE MADE FOR WAR. THEY ARE NOT MADE TO LOOK PRETTY. SOME COME FROM THE FACTORY WITH SLIGHT COSMETIC DEFECTS. THIS IS TO BE EXPECTED, JUST AS AR15 MAGAZINES ARE OFTEN BLEMISHED. IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING MORE COSMETICALLY PERFECT, YOU MIGHT WANT TO CONSIDER ONE OF THE CHEAPER ACOG CLONES THAT ARE MADE TO LOOK COOL.
I would just change that to no returns unless truly defective upon delivery. Let Trijicon deal with the warranty.
But that's coming from another small business owner.
jim
-
Something getting scratched do to use is one thing, it is another if it comes like that from the factory. Is it really so wrong for something you own to look how you want it to? Are we seriously complaining about people who like there equipment to look uniform? Would you complain about someone who complains about getting a car directly ordered from the factory and it came with scratches on it or parts that didn't match in color?
No, it's not wrong for anyone to want what they buy to come unblemished. I'm finicky about that myself. It's unrealistic, though, to expect an ACOG to be without blemishes. It's the way Trijicon makes them, and the customer should be aware of that.
Jim, I'd let Trijicon deal with the warranty, except that I don't think a buyer should get something he's paid $1400 for and then have to send it in to Trijicon for repairs, and perhaps not get it back for two months. If this guy had been reasonable, and had wanted the TA01ECOS, but was unhappy with the finish, I would have exchanged it for another one and made sure it looked as good as an ACOG can.
I dunno. Maybe that warning is a little strong. This guy just really got me steamed.
-
Back in 1996-1999, Trijicon's ACOG line came from the factory looking pristine. If they are letting their QC slip on the exterior finish, I wonder about the guts of the new stuff.
-
If I'm paying $1500-2000 for a Trijicon scope, I'll not only expect a non-blemished scope, but I'll expect Milla Jovovitch to shoot the rifle for me.....
...probably why I've never bought one.....that, and I'm not sure how I'd mount one on my old .303 SMLE....
Sounds like the problem's on Trijicon's end....if it's causing that much of a headache, maybe you should switch scope providers.....
-
Sounds like the problem's on Trijicon's end....if it's causing that much of a headache, maybe you should switch scope providers.....
They're too profitable, and they're popular. It's just the head cases like the one described that drive me nuts.