Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Fly320s on December 09, 2008, 09:31:08 AM
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About time!
http://www.newsday.com/iphone/chi-rod-blagojevich-1209,0,4048252.story
From the Chicago Tribune
TRIBUNE EXCLUSIVE
Blagojevich's Senate selection process investigatedFederal probe widens to Obama's vacant seat
By Jeff Coen, David Kidwell and Monique Garcia | Tribune staff reporters
9:20 AM EST, December 9, 2008
UPDATE: Source: Feds take Gov. Blagojevich into custody
A source said today that Gov. Rod Blagojevich was taken into federal custody at his North Side home this morning. The U.S. attorney's office would not confirm the information, and a spokesman for the governor did not immediately return a phone call for comment. Click here for the latest updates.
A three-year federal corruption investigation of pay-to-play politics in Gov. Rod Blagojevich's administration has expanded to include his impending selection of a new U.S. senator to succeed President-elect Barack Obama, the Tribune has learned.
Federal authorities got approval from a judge before the November general election to secretly record the governor, sources told the Tribune, and among their concerns was whether the selection process might be tainted. That possibility has become a focus in an intensifying investigation that has included recordings of the governor and the cooperation of one of his closest friends.
The governor has not been accused of any wrongdoing. The specific contents of the recent recordings have not been disclosed. Blagojevich has said the appointment of a Senate successor, which is his choice alone, could come in a matter of weeks.
Speaking to reporters Monday for the first time since the Tribune revealed federal investigators had recorded him and others as part of their corruption probe, Blagojevich said his discussions were "always lawful." He also defended close confidant John Wyma, whose cooperation with federal agents helped lead to the recordings, as "an honest person who's conducted himself in an honest way."
"I should say if anybody wants to tape my conversations, go right ahead, feel free to do it," he said. "I appreciate anybody who wants to tape me openly and notoriously, and those who feel like they want to sneakily, and wear taping devices, I would remind them that it kind of smells like Nixon and Watergate."
Unlike the recordings that the federal government has of Blagojevich, the tapes that led to President Richard Nixon's 1974 resignation over the burglary of Democratic offices at the Watergate complex and the ensuing coverup were made by Nixon himself.
Regardless of "whether you tape me privately or publicly, I can tell you that whatever I say is always lawful and the things I'm interested in are always lawful," Blagojevich said. "And if there are any things out there like that, what you'll hear is a governor who tirelessly and endlessly figures out ways to help average, ordinary working people."
Blagojevich's comments came amid increasing concern by Democrats that the governor's pending appointment of a Senate successor may become politically tainted as a result of the investigations surrounding his administration. Federal investigators have been looking into allegations of corruption regarding state jobs, appointments and contracts in connection with Blagojevich's prolific fundraising.
Blagojevich has not been charged with any wrongdoing and contended that if federal investigators areƒs "going to those lengths and extents [of obtaining recordings], if in fact that's true, that would suggest all the past has been pretty good."
"I don't believe there's any cloud that hangs over me. I think there's nothing but sunshine hanging over me," the governor said.
Blagojevich made the remarks at a Monday morning visit to laid-off workers staging a sit-in at the Republic Windows & Doors plant on Goose Island.
Later Monday, he met for 90 minutes with Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., the South Side and southwest suburban congressman who has been the most visibly active campaigner for the appointment to replace Obama. Jackson, who was among the last high-profile Senate successor candidates to speak with Blagojevich, has had disagreements with the governor and is not close to him.
Blagojevich issued a strong defense of Wyma and accused the Tribune of publishing misinformation and possibly defamatory material.
"To begin with, they didn't get it right," he said. "John Wyma's lawyer put out a statement. The Tribune was wrong and very well may have defamed him."
But the statement from Wyma's lawyer did not directly address the Tribune story and instead appeared directed at media outlets and others who reported Wyma wore a wire.
The Tribune noted that Wyma's cooperation with federal investigators helped lead to recordings of Blagojevich but did not report that he wore a wire.
Wyma's lawyer also did not respond to the Tribune's report that Wyma was cooperating with investigators. "John Wyma is a friend of mine, he was my chief of staff, and I'm sure whatever he does, he does ethically and follows the rules," the governor said.
Blagojevich said he would not remove Wyma from his inner circle of advisers. He also told the Tribune that Wyma was not involved in the deliberations over an Obama successor. "No, I consider him a friend. and I don't consider him as anything but a friend. And to someone who, as I've known him, always has been an honest person who's conducted himself in an honest way," Blagojevich said of Wyma. "That's the John Wyma I know and it's the John Wyma that [Obama's incoming chief of staff, Rep.] Rahm Emanuel knows and a lot of other people know."
Blagojevich said he had last spoken to Wyma the day before Thanksgiving, when he offered holiday wishes and "talked a little bit about the plight of the Detroit Lions. He's from Michigan."
And the governor indicated he was not concerned about Wyma cooperating with federal investigators. "Look, I believe everybody should just tell the truth and pursue the truth and be truthful and then you do that and everything's fine," he said.
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Just in time for Christmas. This should be fun to watch.
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IIRC, Blago is Dan Rostenkowski's son-in-law. Brings a new definition of the term "crime family". Thieving bastards....
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If this is true, it might be an early Christmas for everyone!
Might this be from his ties to Tony Rezko?
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/blagojevich/1206714,blago100708.article
Maybe Tony actually believed him and DID tell the truth?
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*bangs on western border* Hey! Keep it down over there! Darn noisy neighbors. Oh, look, Beatrice, the cops are over at the Illinoisians again. Put on the coffee.
This used to be such a nice neighborhood. :laugh:
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Is there a jaw drop smiley?
Oh happy day! Rejoice with me, my friends. This calls for a celebration.
They need to get the spider at the center of the web (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_M._Daley). And do it now, before "our new Chicago overlords" take office.
IIRC, Blago is Dan Rostenkowski's son-in-law
Nope, Dick Mell, another Chicago pol.
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I think there's nothing but sunshine hanging over me
Okay, somebody around here owes me a new keyboard and a fresh cup of coffee! =D
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Criminal Complaint:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/acrobat/2008-12/43789434.pdf
God bless the internet and instant gratification for political junkies.
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Defendants ROD BLAGOJEVICH and JOHN HARRIS, together with
others, attempted to use ROD BLAGOJEVICH’s authority to appoint a United States Senator
for the purpose of obtaining personal benefits for ROD BLAGOJEVICH, including, among
other things, appointment as Secretary of Health & Human Services in the President-elect’s
administration, and alternatively, a lucrative job which they schemed to induce a union to
provide to ROD BLAGOJEVICH in exchange for appointing as senator an individual whom
ROD BLAGOJEVICH and JOHN HARRIS believed to be favored by union officials and
their associates.
To quote Achmed, the Dead Terrorist:
"Holy Crap!"
This information, in turn, is divided into sections relating to three topics:
(a) efforts to obtain campaign contributions in exchange for official actions by ROD
BLAGOJEVICH; (b) efforts to use state funds for the private purpose of inducing the
Tribune Company to fire Chicago Tribune editorial board members critical of ROD
BLAGOJEVICH by making their firing a condition of state assistance to the Tribune
Company in connection with Wrigley Field; and (c) efforts to obtain personal financial
benefits for ROD BLAGOJEVICH in return for his appointment of a United States Senator.
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Photo of arresting agents? :lol:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fffmedia.ign.com%2Ffilmforce%2Fimage%2Farticle%2F681%2F681821%2Funtouchables-cast_1137616950-000.jpg&hash=73af4cb636e4477dc29d72cf6d96ec17dc0e29c9)
AWESOME!
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Do you think DoJ now has the ATF's Thompsons in .38 Super now? =D
Busted for selling Obama's Senate seat! Oh, please, oh, please, let the conspiracy net drift out! :police:
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=D
This made my morning!
From MSN:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28139155/?GT1=43001
WASHINGTON - Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich was arrested Tuesday on charges of conspiring to get financial benefits through his authority to appoint a U.S. senator to fill the vacancy left by Barack Obama's election as president.
According to a federal criminal complaint, Blagojevich also was charged with illegally threatening to withhold state assistance to Tribune Co., the owner of the Chicago Tribune, in the sale of Wrigley Field. In return for state assistance, Blagojevich allegedly wanted members of the paper's editorial board who had been critical of him fired.
John Harris, the governor's chief of staff, was also charged, the U.S. Department of Justice said.
Blagojevich, 51, and Harris, 46, both of Chicago, were each charged with conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud and solicitation of bribery.
A 76-page FBI affidavit alleges that Blagojevich was intercepted on court-authorized wiretaps during the last month conspiring to sell or trade for personal gain the state's U.S. Senate seat.
Federal prosecutors have investigated Blagojevich's administration for at least three years. The governor has repeatedly denied any wrongdoing.
The Department of Justice alleges that in exchange for the Senate appointment, Blagojevich discussed obtaining:
a substantial salary for himself at either a non-profit foundation or an organization affiliated with labor unions;
placing his wife on paid corporate boards where he speculated she might garner as much as $150,000 a year;
promises of campaign funds — including cash up front;
a cabinet post or ambassadorship for himself.
"The breadth of corruption laid out in these charges is staggering," said Patrick J. Fitzgerald, United States Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois. "They allege that Blagojevich put a 'for sale' sign on the naming of a United States Senator. The citizens of Illinois deserve public officials who act solely in the public's interest, without putting a price tag on government appointments, contracts and decisions."
Corruption in the Blagojevich administration has been the focus of a federal Operation Board Games involving an alleged $7 million scheme aimed at squeezing kickbacks out of companies seeking business from the state. Federal prosecutors have acknowledged they're also investigating "serious allegations of endemic hiring fraud" under Blagojevich.
Blagojevich and Harris are due to appear in federal court later on Tuesday to face the charges.
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Do you think DoJ now has the ATF's Thompsons in .38 Super now? =D
Busted for selling Obama's Senate seat! Oh, please, oh, please, let the conspiracy net drift out! :police:
Not just that!
Selling Obama's Senate seat IN EXCHANGE FOR AN APPOINTMENT TO THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.
Looks like I might be able to recycle a Clinton era statement:
"The Obama Administration: A team with convictions. And more coming!"
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Being that this is rather political, you can find it discussed here:
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=16687.0
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Did anybody notice that there is no mention of what political party they belong to? If they had been Republicans it would have said so so everytime their names were mentioned, so I guess they weren't Republicans and if that is the case, I guess they must be Democrats.
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Every elected Democrat governor of Illinois since 1961 has been arrested on Federal charges of corruption.
Republican Governor Ryan (also in jail) might as well have been a Democrat the way he governed.
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d'oh! I figured I shoulda looked there. but I usually try to avoid politics like the plague... :)
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I usually try to avoid politics like the plague... :)
Same here.
Back to the subject at hand, all I can say is, "Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy."
Brad
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This so makes my day. Here's hoping they implicate the One.
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Every elected Democrat governor of Illinois since 1961 has been arrested on Federal charges of corruption.
Republican Governor Ryan (also in jail) might as well have been a Democrat the way he governed.
Makes me so proud of my birth state.
I'm so glad I escaped to Virginia.
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Every elected Democrat governor of Illinois since 1961 has been arrested on Federal charges of corruption.
Really? WLS 890AM just said 4 out of 6?
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Now this is politics place fodder if I ever saw it.
Oh crap. Someone already started this in politcs place. Given that that one has far more replies in it, I'm just going to close this one.
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Every elected Democrat governor of Illinois since 1961 has been arrested on Federal charges of corruption.
Really? WLS 890AM just said 4 out of 6?
33 Otto Kerner, Jr. elected January 9, 1961 sent to prison in 1973 for his role in an illegal racetrack scheme
34 Samuel H. Shapiro took office May 21, 1968 not elected governor, just finished Kerner's term as governor
36 Daniel Walker elected January 8, 1973 sentenced to seven years in prison in 1987 for receiving over a million dollars in fraudulent loans for his business and repairs on his yacht.
40 Rod R. Blagojevich elected January 13, 2003 arrested today by the FBI.
WLS may be going back to Adlai Stevenson (1949?) and is probably including Shapiro as one of the not arrested.
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Republican Governor Ryan (also in jail) might as well have been a Democrat the way he governed.
Yup. Our here in the sticks, there were far more yard signs for his D. opponent, a "downstater" from southern IL, than for G. Ryan. Far more. I think I saw, like, 2, in our town of 25K. Chicago won it for Ryan.
And George <spit!> Ryan missed no opportunity to dis gun owners.
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DECEMBER 9--The criminal complaint filed today against Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich contains a remarkable section detailing the Democratic politician's alleged attempt to cash in on his ability to fill the U.S. Senate seat vacated by President-elect Barack Obama. Attached to the U.S. District Court complaint is an FBI affidavit, excerpted below, alleging that Blagojevich was caught on wiretaps noting that the Senate seat "is a f__cking valuable thing, you just don't give it away for nothing." He was also recorded saying that unless "I get something real good," he would appoint himself to the vacancy. "I'm going to keep this Senate option for me a real possibility, you know, and therefore I can drive a hard bargain. You hear what I'm saying. And if I don't get what I want and I'm not satisfied with it, then I'll just take the Senate seat myself." According to the surreptitiously recorded conversations, Blagojevich spoke with associates about the possibility of trading the Senate post for either an ambassadorship or a Cabinet post. The Democratic politician, according to the affidavit sworn by FBI Agent Daniel Cain, "analogized his situation to that of a sports agent shopping a potential free agent to various teams." Blagojevich, 51, and his chief of staff, John Harris, were arrested this morning on political corruption charges.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/1209081rod1.html (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/1209081rod1.html)
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Illinois Politics, coming soon to a whitehouse near you!!!
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He wasn't soliciting for a bribe.
He was asking for a bailout
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Merged threads...
It's gonna be a nice Christmas to see Blagojevich in handcuffs, though. =D
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He wasn't soliciting for a bribe.
He was asking for a bailout
Of course now that I said that.....
Will he be bailed out?
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So wait, counting that Repub. guy, 5 of the governors since '61 have been arrested? Out of how many total?
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$4500 bail?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/09/illinois.governor/index.html
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: Gov. Rod Blagojevich released on $4,500 bail, forfeits passport
NEW: Barack Obama says he had "no contact" as governor chose his successor
Blagojevich arrested, accused of conspiring to sell Obama's Senate seat
Governor can still appoint Obama's successor despite arrest, U.S. attorney says
CNN) -- Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich appeared in court Tuesday afternoon to hear federal corruption charges against him. Bail was set at $4,500, and Blagojevich was then released on his own recognizance.
Rod Blagojevich is serving his second term as governor of Illinois.
The governor, who appeared in court in a blue jogging suit, also had to forfeit his passport.
FBI agents arrested Blagojevich and his chief of staff, John Harris, early Tuesday on federal corruption charges related in part to the selection of President-elect Barack Obama's successor to the Senate, the U.S. attorney's office said.
U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald declared Tuesday a "sad day for government."
"Gov. Blagojevich has taken us to a new low," he said. "This conduct would make [Abraham] Lincoln roll over in his grave."
Fitzgerald said the government had bugged the governor's campaign office and placed a tap on his home phone.
Obama reacted to the news at a press conference on Tuesday.
"Obviously, like the rest of the people of Illinois, I am saddened and sobered by the news that came out of the U.S. attorney's office today," he said. "But as this is an ongoing investigation involving the governor, I don't think it would be appropriate for me to comment on the issue at this time."
When asked by reporters whether he had any contact with Blagojevich about the Senate seat, Obama said he had no contact with the governor or his office.
"I was not aware of what was happening," he added.
Fitzgerald said the case required "unusual measures" because of actions Blagojevich was expected to take soon, including filling the vacant Senate seat. "There were a lot of things going on that were imminent," he said.
"We were in the middle of a corruption crime scene and we wanted to stop it," Fitzgerald said.
One big question now is whether Blagojevich retains the right to name Obama's successor if he remains in custody or even under indictment. The answer is yes, according to Fitzgerald.
Jay Stewart, executive director of Chicago's Better Government Association, agreed. He said Blagojevich retains the right to fill the senate vacancy until he's out of office, which won't happen unless he quits or is removed from office by impeachment.
At a press conference Tuesday, Illinois Sen. Dick Durbin, a Democrat, said he wants the Illinois Legislature to act quickly to pass a law setting a special election to fill Obama's seat, in order to prevent Blagojevich from making a tainted appointment or there being a lengthy vacancy in the Senate.
"No appointment by this governor under these circumstances could produce a credible replacement," Durbin said. iReport.com: What do you think of Blagojevich's corruption charges?
Fitzgerald said Blagojevich was looking to pull $8 million in funding for a children's hospital after the hospital's chief executive officer did not give a $50,000 contribution to the governor's campaign.
Also, Fitzgerald said, it was expected that Blagojevich would soon sign into law a bill that would direct a percentage of casino revenue to the horse racing industry -- a bill supported by someone who contributed $100,000.
"To let that bill be signed, to me, would be very, very troubling," Fitzgerald said.
The governor's office, in an afternoon statement, said the allegations "do nothing to impact the services, duties or function of the state."
"Our state will continue to ensure health, safety and economic stability for the citizens of Illinois."
Lt. Gov. Pat Quinn said the governor should use a provision in the Illinois constitution that allows him to step down, but not necessarily to resign. "I recommend to the governor to realize ... that he cannot carry out his responsibilities of office today, and he should, in my opinion, step aside."
Quinn, a Democrat like Blagojevich, said under the provision, a determination can be made later as to whether he can return to office.
Quinn said he had not spoken to Blagojevich at length since summer 2007.
In a 76-page affidavit, federal authorities say wiretaps caught Blagojevich conspiring to sell or trade the vacant Senate seat in exchange for financial benefits for himself and his wife, Patti.
The governor also often weighed the option of appointing himself to the Senate seat, saying he was "stuck" at governor and might have access to more resources as a senator than as a governor, the affidavit says. A Senate seat could also help him remake his image ahead of a possible presidential run in 2016. "If ... they're not going to offer anything of any value, then I might just take it," he said in one conversation.
At times, he discussed obtaining a substantial salary for himself at a nonprofit organization or an organization affiliated with labor unions, as well as placing his wife on paid corporate boards where she might make as much as $150,000 a year, the government said.
During one recorded conversation, Blagojevich said he needed to consider his family and said he was financially hurting, the affidavit said.
"I want to make money," Blagojevich said, according to the affidavit.
The intercepted phone calls also caught the governor and Harris discussing the possibility of the Tribune Company's obtaining assistance from the Illinois Finance Authority in efforts to sell the Cubs and the financing or sale of Wrigley Field, the government said. The company owns the Chicago Tribune, the Cubs, and Wrigley Field.
Blagojevich allegedly directed Harris to tell Tribune officials that state assistance would be withheld unless members of the Chicago Tribune's editorial board were fired. The Illinois governor saw them as "driving discussion of his possible impeachment," the affidavit said.
"Our recommendation is fire all those [expletive] people, get 'em the [expletive] out of there and get us some editorial support," the governor allegedly said in one phone call.
Federal authorities also allege the governor and Harris schemed with others -- including convicted real estate developer Antoin "Tony" Rezko -- to obtain financial benefits for himself, his family and others, including his campaign committee, Friends of Blagojevich.
Reports from the Chicago Tribune last week said federal authorities were investigating the governor and were secretly taping his conversations -- with the help of his former congressional chief of staff, John Wyem.
"I don't believe there's any cloud that hangs over me," Blagojevich told WLS-TV in Chicago on Monday, as he responded to the reports of wiretapping. "I think there's nothing but sunshine hanging over me."
He added, "By the way, I should say if anyone wants to tape my conversations, go right ahead, feel free to do it. I appreciate anybody who wants to tape me openly."
Blagojevich, who turns 52 on Wednesday, is in his second four-year term as Illinois governor. His term ends January 2011.
Before that, he served as a U.S. congressman for Illinois' 5th district from 1997 until 2003, according to his online biography.
He and his wife have two daughters.
The state's last governor, George Ryan, was convicted in April 2006 on racketeering and fraud charges.
Ryan reported to a federal prison in Wisconsin in November 2007 to serve a 6½-year sentence. Earlier this year, the Supreme Court of the United States said it would not hear an appeal from Ryan.
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Blago is small potatos...
I'll be impressed and convinced the feds really are trying to stamp out corruption when they arrest Dailey at gunpoint and march his sorry ass off to the joint.
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It's gonna be a nice Christmas to see Blagojevich in handcuffs, though. =D
Epic lolz. I want perp-walk photos.
When asked by reporters whether he had any contact with Blagojevich about the Senate seat, Obama said he had no contact with the governor or his office.
There's a story from a couple of weeks ago, where Rom Emmanuel (or whatever) contradicted that flatly. It appears the One is lying. :O
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In October, several weeks prior to the election, the Chicago Tribune learned of the investigation. The US Attorney, Fitzgerald, asked that this newspaper sit on the story for a while stating that the investigation would be jeopardized. The Tribune did so.
Would the fact that this was unfolding have any impact on some voters?
Would the fact that this US Attorney is the same one who prosecuted Scooter Libby have any impact on voters?
Timing is great!! Wait till after the election to let this prime example of Chicago politics loose!!
Well, at least the Tribune just went bankrupt.
Thank God for change and hope we can believe in.
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In October, several weeks prior to the election, the Chicago Tribune learned of the investigation. The US Attorney, Fitzgerald, asked that this newspaper sit on the story for a while stating that the investigation would be jeopardized. The Tribune did so.
Would the fact that this was unfolding have any impact on some voters?
Would the fact that this US Attorney is the same one who prosecuted Scooter Libby have any impact on voters?
Timing is great!! Wait till after the election to let this prime example of Chicago politics loose!!
Well, at least the Tribune just went bankrupt.
Thank God for change and hope we can believe in.
The Trib learned of the investigation before the feds got their wiretap in place. If they had leaked the story, it would have probably killed the investigation.
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So, Jesse Jackson will not become the senator from Illinois?
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http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/pr/chicago/2008/pr1209_01.pdf
A 76-page FBI affidavit alleges that Blagojevich was intercepted on court-authorized wiretaps during the last month conspiring to sell or trade Illinois’ U.S. Senate seat vacated by President-elect Barack Obama for financial and other personal benefits for himself and his wife. At various times, in exchange for the Senate appointment, Blagojevich discussed obtaining:
a substantial salary for himself at a either a non-profit foundation or an organization affiliated with labor unions;
placing his wife on paid corporate boards where he speculated she might garner as much as $150,000 a year;
promises of campaign funds – including cash up front; and
a cabinet post or ambassadorship for himself.
I don't understand something. What is described here is nothing less than modus operandi of Washington elite-dom. Why is it a crime in his case yet ok in the cases of innumerable figures. <shakes head in amazement>
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Why the amazement?
He got caught, they didn't (yet).
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U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald declared Tuesday a "sad day for government."
Maybe so, but a good day for the citizens.
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Unreal.
I bet his defense will state that the wiretaps were illegal...
So why do we keep electing Democrats and Republicans? Is it because we're more used to their bad actions?
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The governor, who appeared in court in a blue jogging suit
<Pout>I wanted to see an orange jumpsuit</pout>
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So why do we keep electing Democrats and Republicans? Is it because we're more used to their bad actions?
lack of sane alternatives
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So why do we keep electing Democrats and Republicans? Is it because we're more used to their bad actions?
lack of sane alternatives
And why don't we get decent people to run in the primaries and then nominate them... oh wait I know the answer to that. When we actually get decent people to run in the primaries, we will then get too scared of the notion and keep voting for same-old, because we are afraid OTHER people will not vote for the decent people in the general.
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generally decent folks avoid politics like hiv
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generally decent folks avoid politics like hiv
Then they shouldn't be surprised at the results.
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$4500 bail?
You are advised to treat the One's pals with kid gloves. It increases your chances of promotion come Jan. 21, and decreases your chances of doom.
and Blagojevich was then released on his own recognizance.
What exactly does that mean? He looks in a mirror and says: "Yup, that's me"?
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There's a story from a couple of weeks ago, where Rom Emmanuel (or whatever) contradicted that flatly. It appears the One is lying. :O
Sorry. It was David Axelrod who said it, in an interview with Chicago's FOX affiliate. He said that Obama HAD talked with Blago about the successor.
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Sorry. It was David Axelrod who said it, in an interview with Chicago's FOX affiliate. He said that Obama HAD talked with Blago about the successor.
Really.
Well well well well well.
Did the nation just learn a bit more about what Chicago Politics really means, after all?
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Really.
Well well well well well.
Did the nation just learn a bit more about what Chicago Politics really means, after all?
No, not for long atleast. I bet there's a new season of American Idol coming up soon, amirite? After all, what's more important than American Idol? Bread and circus, bread and circus...
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Really.
Well well well well well.
Did the nation just learn a bit more about what Chicago Politics really means, after all?
Nope. The MSM will ignore that point. The masses are just happy a black man has been elected. We've changed!
Amerika is anew!
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Here is a nice photo for the morning...
Blagojevich Obama Daley
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.timeinc.net%2Ftime%2Fdaily%2F2008%2F0812%2Fblagojevich_obama_1209.jpg&hash=2be30d71fc0ad81b85a3e446913690f2b98d9382)
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Heard on the news a bit ago that some Illinois Democrats are saying that if Blagojevich doesn't step down fast, they're going to begin impeachment proceedings.
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Heard on the news a bit ago that some Illinois Democrats are saying that if Blagojevich doesn't step down fast, they're going to begin impeachment proceedings.
Ah yes, the rest of the criminals in Illinois are in serious CYA mode.
I just love my birth state.
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Obama just called for Blagwhatever to step down, as well.
According to the Tribune, the Gov. is also accused of trying to extort the firings of Tribune editorial board who were critical of him.
The carrot there was the threat that if the Tribune didn't do it, the state would make it VERY difficult for the Tribune to get rid of Wrigley Field.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/10/AR2008121001677.html?hpid=topnews
Jesse Jackson Jr. May Be Tied to Blagojevich Probe, Attorney Says
State Lawmakers Scramble to Take Control of Filling Vacant Senate Seat
Video
Jackson Jr. on Blagojevich Corruption Scandal
Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. denies any wrongdoing in connection with the Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich charges in a press conference.
» LAUNCH VIDEO PLAYER
»
By Peter Slevin and Kari Lydersen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, December 10, 2008; 5:59 PM
CHICAGO, Dec. 10 -- "Senate Candidate 5," an aspirant to President-elect Barack Obama's former U.S. Senate seat mentioned in FBI tapes of Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich, appears to be Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., his attorney said at a press conference here this afternoon, but he said Jackson "has made no illicit approach to the governor."
Although Blagojevich (D) was captured on the tapes saying that an emissary from Candidate 5 had offered to raise $500,000 for Blagojevich's campaign treasury, lawyer James Montgomery said Jackson knew nothing about that.
"Politicians and fundraisers do some funny things from time to time," said Montgomery, who told reporters that Jackson does not know the unidentified emissary. "I wouldn't put it past someone to claim they were representing congressman Jackson."
Jackson (D-Ill.) has made no secret of wanting to fill the seat Obama resigned Nov. 16 after being elected president. He met with Blagojevich on Monday, the day before the governor was charged with two federal counts of felony influence peddling.
In a press conference on Capitol Hill in Washington late Wednesday afternoon, Jackson said, "I reject and denounce pay-to-play politics and have no involvement whatsoever in any wrongdoing.
"I did not initiate or authorize anyone at any time to promise anything to Gov. Blagojevich on my behalf," Jackson said. "I never sent a message or an emissary."
Jackson, recently elected to his eighth term, said his 90 minute meeting with Blagojevich Monday was the first time he had met with the governor in four years.
"I spoke with the U.S. attorney's office on Tuesday," Jackson said. "They shared with me that I am not a target of this investigation." He said he would cooperate "fully and completely" with federal investigators.
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Blagojevich headed to work as usual Wednesday morning, even as a spokesman for President-elect Barack Obama said Blagojevich's arrest on corruption charges Tuesday means he can no longer govern effectively and should step down.
The youthful-looking governor, whose 52nd birthday is Wednesday, waved to reporters and said nothing as he left his North Side home and ducked into a dark SUV. His seeming nonchalance gave no hint of the uncertainty that defines Illinois state government now that its chief executive has been caught on audiotape trying to shake down business leaders and hawk Obama's former Senate seat to the highest bidder.
Politicians in both parties are calling on Blagojevich to resign or face impeachment charges. Lt. Gov. Pat Quinn (D), a populist who is long estranged from Blagojevich, has told colleagues he is ready to step in, and a spokesman for Obama said it was time for Blagojevich to go.
"The President-elect agrees with lieutenant Governor Quinn and many others that, under the current circumstances, it is difficult for the Governor to effectively do his job and serve the people of Illinois," said Robert Gibbs, the incoming White House press secretary, said.
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There is something deliciously ironic about the concept of Je$$ie Jack$on (even if it is Jr.) getting shaken down. :laugh:
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Jesse Jackson Jr. May Be Tied to Blagojevich Probe
Heh heh..........A shakedown artist trying to shakedown THE shakedown artist. Don't think for a second that Jesse Sr. didn't leave fingerprints on this either.
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Here is a nice photo for the morning...
Blagojevich Larry Obama Moe Daley Curly
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.timeinc.net%2Ftime%2Fdaily%2F2008%2F0812%2Fblagojevich_obama_1209.jpg&hash=2be30d71fc0ad81b85a3e446913690f2b98d9382)
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Are there any images out there of him doing a perp walk? I just checked TSG, etc., and no mug shot... I want that for wallpaper!
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Jackson said, "I reject and denounce pay-to-play politics and have no involvement whatsoever in any wrongdoing.
Yeah, and I'm going to check under my pillow bright and early in the morning to see what the tooth færie left me, too.
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coming from the spawn of the reverend pay to play thats ironic
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I wonder if Gov. Doyle is having his staff check the office for bugs right about now?
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Michelle Obama is the "Specifically Named Individual" on page 64 of the Criminal Complaint against Governor Rod Blagojevich.
From the indictment:
ROD BLAGOJEVICH said that the consultants (Advisor B and another consultant are believed to be on the call at that time) are telling him that he has to “suck it up” for two years and do nothing and give this “motherf***er [the President-elect] his senator. F**k him. For nothing? F**k him.” ROD BLAGOJEVICH states that he will put “[Senate Candidate 4]” in the Senate “before I just give f**king [Senate Candidate 1] a f**king Senate seat and I don’t get anything.” (Senate Candidate 4 is a Deputy Governor of the State of Illinois).
>ROD BLAGOJEVICH stated that he needs to find a way to take the “financial stress” off of his family and that his wife is as qualified or more qualified than another specifically named individual to sit on corporate boards.
>>The “specifically named individual” is Michelle Obama, who was appointed to the Board of TreeHouse Foods, a WAL-MART vendor, on June 25, 2005, even though she did not have experience in the private sector previous to the appointment. Here are the benefits the Obama family received as a result of Michelle Obama’s stint with the WAL-MART vendor:
According to the couple’s tax returns, Mrs Obama earned $51,200 (£25,700) for her work as a non-executive director on Treehouse’s board last year, on top of the $271,618 salary she was paid as a vice-president of the University of Chicago Hospitals.
She also received 7,500 Treehouse stock options, worth a further $72,375, as she did the previous year, when she banked a $45,000 salary from the company.
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Oooh, it's getting juicier. =D
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Lemme guess, the media is still going to tell us that Obama has nothing to do with this sort of Chicago-style politics.
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Funny...
But CHANGE seems to have about the same odor as entrenched bureaucracy...
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It's now being reported that Rahm Emanual (D-Clinton/Daley/Obama) is heard on the Blago tapes on SIX separate calls. The ChosenHopeChangeOne is in full damage control mode, as they try to figure out what was said and how to spin it to the masses......
Congrats BHO, a scandal even before you take office... I'm sure that's a record....... ;/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-kass-12-dec12,0,723256.column
John Kass
December 12, 2008
When it comes to being the guy behind the guy, there is no one more conspicuous than Rahm Emanuel.
As chief of staff for President-elect Barack Obama, he's usually at Obama's news conferences, standing off to the side, glowering like some fiercely loyal mini-me.
But Emanuel wasn't there Thursday when Obama faced reporters to answer questions about federal charges against Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich (D-Dead Meat), accused of trying to sell Obama's Senate seat to the highest bidder.
"I have never spoken to the governor on this subject," Obama said. "I am confident that no representatives of mine would have any part of any deals related to this seat."
Wow. No staffers tried to make a deal for his Senate seat?
"I've asked my team to gather the facts of any contacts with the governor's office about this vacant seat, so that we can share them with you over the next few days," Obama said.
He could have just asked Emanuel, but he wasn't there, and reporters kept wondering, "Where's Rahm? Where's Rahm?" What they should have been asking is, "Where's Jimmy?"
As in state Sen. James DeLeo (D-How You Doin?)
DeLeo is an extremely powerful politician. You know this because he's hardly ever quoted in newspaper stories.
Emanuel and DeLeo have a relationship. Emanuel is the congressman from the 5th Congressional District, where DeLeo is the Democratic state central committeeman. What hasn't been reported on much is that Emanuel has not yet resigned from the House. And if you want to play politics in Jimmy's sandbox, you need his OK.
DeLeo is also considered by some to be the real governor of Illinois. Blagojevich is the nutty guy who makes the speeches and gets the federal slap. They're so close that if Jimmy suddenly stopped walking, Rod would chip his teeth on the back of Jimmy's head.
It's reasonable to assume that if there's one fellow Rod would talk to about the Senate seat, it's Jimmy. And given their relationship, Jimmy could talk to Rahm. I'm not suggesting money was offered. There is nothing illegal about politicians horse-trading to fill seats. Only when such deals are monetized—as the governor is alleged to have done—is it illegal.
I'm just talking about putting political pieces on the board the Chicago Way. A vacant Senate seat and a soon-to-be vacant House seat in Illinois would be a package deal. Consider this mathematical equation: Jimmy/Rod + Jimmy/Rahm = Happy Rod, Jimmy and Rahm. Get it?
Before he became so powerful, Jimmy was a lowly traffic court bailiff making a measly $20,000 a year. Yet he was able to own shiny new Cadillacs, Jaguars and Mercedes, astounding federal agents, who in 1989 charged him with taking bribes to fix tickets in the Operation Greylord probe of judicial corruption.
Later, his former roommate told a federal grand jury that there was $35,000 in cash in their freezer, carefully wrapped in butcher paper so the bills wouldn't get freezer burn. But the roommate came to Jimmy's defense, saying the money was his, not Jimmy's, and that it came from the roommate's stolen-car business.
At Jimmy's trial, Outfit gambling boss Ken "Tokyo Joe" Eto emerged from the witness protection program to testify that he passed cash to Jimmy via handshakes. Eto had been hiding since Outfit hit men tried to kill him. They used cheap bullets, and three slugs failed to fully penetrate Eto's diamond-hard cranium.
The jury didn't believe the feds. They believed Jimmy and acquitted him, so he rose to political prominence, and now Obama's chief of staff is the congressman in the district Jimmy controls.
Jimmy didn't return my call to his office, so we checked other joints. "DeLeo?" said Glenn, the manager at Carmine's. "I've never heard of the name. Who?"
At Tavern on Rush, a hostess said, "I haven't seen him today." A woman at Cafe Bionda simply said, "No, he's not here."
So I phoned the Excelsior Casino in Aruba, where Jimmy takes politicians to gamble, including Illinois Secretary of State Jesse White. I figured Jimmy might be there.
"Who's calling please?" asked a secretary in the office of Michael Posner, the casino boss who has Chicago connections.
Tell him John from Chicago is calling, I said. Posner picked up and was quite chirpy, for about three seconds, until he realized I was a newspaper guy.
"If you want to find him, call him yourself," Posner said. Click.
Later, Jimmy's attorney phoned, upset that I'd called all over looking for him. She told me that Jimmy had nothing to do with any deal for Rahm's seat or Obama's seat.
"The answer is no," said Jimmy's attorney. "No."
OK, but I'm still waiting to hear from Jimmy, so I can ask him about Rod and Rahm. I won't hold my breath.
You never hear from the real guy behind the guy.
That's how they remain the guy behind the guy.
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Congrats BHO, a scandal even before you take office... I'm sure that's a record
You mean you hope for a record? Is that not change, good sir? Scout, I put it to you that you hate America.
Reichsfurher von Emanual knew? That means Obama knew!
If Obama knew and did not drop a dime=several federal felonies!
Will Obama be impeached before he will be sworn in? =D
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Will Obama be impeached before he will be sworn in? =D
Hope springs eternal !!! =D =D =D
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Hope springs eternal !!! =D =D =D
Which means we'd be either looking at having Biden or (if Biden's indicted alongside BO) Nancy Pilosi as president.
I'm not sure which is worse...
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Some folks are enjoying this mess more than others, it seems.
http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=MGQ5YjEwNjJkZDQ5MDRkZDVlNDI0ZTg0MjJiNDk0NDk=
A Little Blago for Everyone
A cornucopia of corrupt crapulence.
By Jonah Goldberg
There are so many things to love about the Rod Blagojevich scandal it’s hard to know where to begin.
Wait. That’s not right. There are so many bleeping things to love about this bleeping-bleep Blagojevich scandal it’s hard to know where to begin.
For starters, the folks at the Chicago Tribune are Christmas Pony Happy because Blago tried to strong-arm the Trib’s owners to fire members of the editorial board. Instead, Trib editors will get to have a big tailgate party outside Blago’s cell window.
Newspaper people love that sort of thing.
For the more historically minded, it’s a time for nostalgia. The past comes alive as Chicago’s grand tradition of corruption is sustained for another generation. As the Chicago Tribune once wrote, “corruption has been as much a part of the landscape as corn, soybeans and skyscrapers.” According to the Chicago Sun-Times, as of 2006 — when Blago’s predecessor, George Ryan, was sent to prison for racketeering — 79 elected officials had been convicted of corruption in the past 30 years. Among the perps: 27 aldermen, 19 judges, 15 state legislators, three governors, two congressmen, one mayor, two turtledoves, and a partridge in a stolen pear tree. Especially in this holiday season, it’s so very important to keep traditions alive for the kids. In a sense, Blago did it for the children.
For partisans, there’s the schadenfreude that comes with watching the Democrats — self-proclaimed anti-corruption zealots in recent years — explain why Blagojevich shouldn’t be lumped in with Congressmen Charlie Rangel (cut himself sweetheart deals), William Jefferson ($90,000 in his freezer) and Tim Mahoney (tried to bribe an aide he was sleeping with not to sue him — and you thought romance was dead) as part of a new Democratic “culture of corruption” storyline.
There’s the enormous I-should-have-had-a-V8! moment as the mainstream press collectively thwacks itself in the forehead, realizing it blew it again. The New York Times — which, according to Wall Street analysts, is weeks from holding editorial-board meetings in a refrigerator box — created the journalistic equivalent of CSI-Wasilla to study every follicle and fiber in Sarah Palin’s background, all the while treating Obama’s Chicago like one of those fairy-tale lands depicted in posters that adorn little girls’ bedroom walls. See there, Suzie? That’s a Pegasus. That’s a pink unicorn. And that’s a beautiful sunflower giving birth to a fully grown Barack Obama, the greatest president ever and the only man in history to be able to pick up manure from the clean end.
Obviously the list doesn’t end there. Blago’s hair not only appears bulletproof but seems to confirm reports that he is the human model for Playmobil action figures.
And you can’t leave out the supporting cast. Mrs. Blago curses like the inmate working the cafeteria at a women’s prison who replies with an f-bomb to anyone objecting to a leaden ladle-thwack of unidentifiable green mush on their lunch tray.
Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. — himself the son of a shakedown artist — is alleged to have offered (through a minion) a half-million bucks for Barack Obama’s vacant U.S. Senate seat. Jackson replaced former Rep. Mel Reynolds, who went to jail for getting jiggy with a 16-year-old campaign staffer and stayed in jail because of various fraud convictions. Reynolds, in turn, was the “reformer” who had replaced Rep. Gus Savage, the thug-congressman who groped a Peace Corps volunteer in Zaire while on a “fact-finding” trip. Savage held off Reynolds’ attempts to replace him for several years by claiming Reynolds was financed by “racist Jews.”
Man, what isn’t there to love about Chicago politics?
It would be premature, not to mention un-festive, to discard any of these delicious immoral morsels from this cornucopia of corrupt crapulence. Fortunately, there’s no need to single out just one fragrance from this miasma of malfeasance or one dish from this smorgasbord of smut.
But, there is a nice moral to the story here. For the last several years, we’ve heard a lot about “new politics.” We are going to start fresh and put aside the old politics and the old ways. So far, it looks like Obama did nothing wrong, and I hope that remains the case. But it’s worth remembering that there really isn’t any such thing as a “new politics.” Politics is eternal because human nature is unchanging. Even Barack Obama, hero-saint light-worker Jedi Knight Messiah that he is, came from a political culture that would not be unrecognizable to Caligula.
Hopefully, Obama will take away from this the humility that comes with realizing we are all — even The One — built from the crooked timber of humanity. Hence the genius of the Founders who built a government that took our imperfection into account. As James Madison said, If men were bleeping angels ...
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GW98, I think Doyle learned enough in his 12 years as AG to know where the thin ice is. US attorney Biskupic did a lot of research on him, but never got close enough.
There was one out-and-out case of pay for play that never went anywhere. A former state representative--Larry Balow-- from the Eau Claire area had voted for our CCW bill many times. A civic group in the area wanted to restore the Altoona Roundhouse, one of those buildings railroads use to turn locomotives around, but they didn't have the money.
Doyle told Balow he'd get the money for the roundhouse if Balow would flip on CCW. We know that goes on all the time, but Balow was running around the capital bragging about it. Dave Zien heard about it, and went on the radio saying that Doyle and Balow had committed a crime. Balow threatened to sue Zien. Zien's attorney said he'd win, but the legal fees would run about $20K. Zien couldn't afford it, so he had to back down.
I would love to see Doyle and Blagojevich sharing a cell.
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Even Barack Obama, hero-saint light-worker Jedi Knight Messiah that he is, came from a political culture that would not be unrecognizable to Caligula.
I'm sorry, but that is a pile.
We are in a post-July 4th culture.
We are not in a culture of absolute power. Nor are 21st-century Americans anywhere near the same as Romans.
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I'm sorry, but that is a pile.
We are in a post-July 4th culture.
We are not in a culture of absolute power. Nor are 21st-century Americans anywhere near the same as Romans.
I suspect the culture he is speaking of is the Illinois political cultural that is dominated by Chicago machine politics.
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I'm sorry, but that is a pile.
We are in a post-July 4th culture.
We are not in a culture of absolute power. Nor are 21st-century Americans anywhere near the same as Romans.
its exaggeration for effect. thought you'd recognize it
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its exaggeration for effect. thought you'd recognize it
You know, I take it back. Three cops could have probably lifted that guy out of the car.
Also, Jonah is quite explicit about stating human nature is immutable. That is in itself nonsense.
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Also, Jonah is quite explicit about stating human nature is immutable. That is in itself nonsense.
Because since the beginning of recorded history mankind has made such great strides in combating corruption, lol...
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We are not in a culture of absolute power. Nor are 21st-century Americans anywhere near the same as Romans.
Ever been to Chicago ??
I live here. Da Mayor is as close to a Roman Emporer as we'll see in this lifetime....
Come on, even Jesse Jackson sucks up to Richie Shortshanks.... How do you think JJ Jr. got his Congressional seat ??
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I was born in Chicago and have lived 10 minutes from Cook County for the last 30 years. I have had a front row seat to the corruption.
In fact my grandpa was a precinct captain for many years under the first Daley's reign. He was rewarded with a "job" with the city for his good work that he only had for a short time. That little gig landed my grandpa and grandma Blue Cross/Blue Shield health insurance for life somehow. My grandpa died in 1974 and grandma still has her top notch insurance paid for by the city of Chicago to this day.
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Because since the beginning of recorded history mankind has made such great strides in combating corruption, lol...
Is your Presidency determined by competing Marine Corps divisions? No?
Do you operate a system of human chattel slavery?
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Is your Presidency determined by competing Marine Corps divisions? No?
Do you operate a system of human chattel slavery?
The outward manifestations of the corruption have been beaten back by liberty and rule of law no doubt.
The corrupt nature of men, especially in positions of power and authority remains basically unchanged though.
Slavery and ascension to power through force still occur in our world. It hasn't been vanquished yet.
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The outward manifestations of the corruption have been beaten back by liberty and rule of law no doubt.
The corrupt nature of men, especially in positions of power and authority remains basically unchanged though.
Slavery and ascension to power through force still occur in our world. It hasn't been vanquished yet.
And yet there are vast areas of the world where we have controlled our corruption to some extent. This was unknown completely in centuries past.
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And yet there are vast areas of the world where we have controlled our corruption to some extent.
where?
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And yet there are vast areas of the world where we have controlled our corruption to some extent.
where?
North America. Europe. Even some parts of the East are vastly better than they used to be only a few centuries ago.
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North America. Europe. Even some parts of the East are vastly better than they used to be only a few centuries ago.
fixed i've never lived in europe so i hesitate to say. unwilling to use a whitepaper to decide
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fixed i've never lived in europe so i hesitate to say. unwilling to use a whitepaper to decide
So I take it you don't have an opinion about anything that happened prior to your birth.
Read Burkhardt's Rennaissance Italy, where he describes how selling of honor titles and government posts went on openly and nobody minded - then tell me if your Blagojevich is anything like that. He's being prosecuted and will be tried - which in itself suggests modern American society doesn't approve of his actions.
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i have opinions, and they are just that opinions subject to the classic limitations
i have the possibility of actual observation during my time on earth and those observations carry more weight with me. consider a failing in my dotage but i am skeptical of categorical pronouncements
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North America. Europe. Even some parts of the East are vastly better than they used to be only a few centuries ago.
Haha. No. I know someone who lives in Italy. The government there is not only absolutely corrupt, it's damned near impossible to remove someone from office once they get their claws into the chair. They tell me all the time about the stuff that goes on even in local politics.
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Haha. No. I know someone who lives in Italy. The government there is not only absolutely corrupt, it's damned near impossible to remove someone from office once they get their claws into the chair. They tell me all the time about the stuff that goes on even in local politics.
And now go read Burkhardt about how Italy used to be like only 300-400 years ago. NOT in the Roman era.
Note I am not saying progress is inevitable and always ongoing. But it IS possible and it sometimes happens. Sometimes it gets rolled back. But it does exist.
You surely would agree it is possible to corrupt a man. Rationally then, it is also possible to uplift a man.
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I'm sorry, but that is a pile.
We are in a post-July 4th culture.
We are not in a culture of absolute power. Nor are 21st-century Americans anywhere near the same as Romans.
A few small boats, fueled by the Enlightenment and Anglo-Protestant rectitude, have been sailing against the wind of human fallibility for centuries. We can thank those comparative few for reason, liberty, and honest dealing, and we can thank them for the science and technology and free inquiry that have created the semblance of civilization, otherwise known as material progress, that has spread over a growing part of the globe.
But the storms are gathering, and although corruption isn't the universal religion, it's damn close. A crook with a GPS-enabled cellphone in his hand is still a crook.
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Is your Presidency determined by competing Marine Corps divisions? No?
Do you operate a system of human chattel slavery?
Umm, Richie Shortshanks doles out contracts and favors to the various ethnic groups (meaning their leaders) to keep them happy...
The patronage army he has created could be considered Human Chattel.....Vote for who Richie says or lose your job, have your life destroyed, etc.....
It may not be exactly Roman, but it is very medival....
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Corrected;
It may not be exactly Roman, but it is very medival evil....
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You know, I take it back. Three cops could have probably lifted that guy out of the car.
Also, Jonah is quite explicit about stating human nature is immutable. That is in itself nonsense.
Really.
Do tell where the darker impulses of humanity have been bred/evolved out, rather than socialized to the margins.
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He apparently just all of a sudden pardoned 22 people.
Illinois is out of control.
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Really.
Do tell where the darker impulses of humanity have been bred/evolved out, rather than socialized to the margins.
I don't actually THINK most people are evil. Sure we have a proportion of tyrants and gangsters and whatnot. But they're a minority.
The majority of people cut their bread every day with knives quite bigger than a Kershaw and never kill a man with them, and then pilot giant guided missiles to work (you know them as 'cars'), fueling them with an explosive ('gasoline' or 'diesel'). Most of the people in the world bring up healthy children that don't end up as gangsters or welfare bums or tyrants. Civilization exists. The fact I can send this message and you can read it is only possible due to the cooperative effort of hundreds of millions of people. We (with the exception of some parts of Africa) have civilization, not Lord of the Flies.
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Do you not see a contradiction between that opinion, and your constant complaints about everything you perceive as an infringement of liberty? You see violations of basic human rights in the gun laws, drug laws, marriage laws, and so on ad nauseum, in the U.S., and all over the world. I'm accustomed to hearing that from you, and I very often agree with you. But then you turn around and say that men are fundamentally good.
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But then you turn around and say that men are fundamentally good.
Humans are fundamentally good. They are born that way. My personal experience with raising 3 daughters to adulthood, now raising my niece's son since his birth (I've adopted him) and having 5 grandkids have convinced me of that.
Babies come into the world a blank slate. They are naturally loving and good creatures for the 1st years of their lives. There's no guile or hate in them. They don't lie, steal or do anything else that's evil until around age 4 or so. At that point they begin to be influenced by outside influences over which most parents have no control. Parents can negate the negative influences if they care to and keep their kids on the path to good. Unfortunately some just don't care enough to make the effort and kids go down the wrong path.
Humans are born good - it is their life experiences that turn them bad.
Caveat: there is evidence that some genetic defects can drive a person down an evil path. In that case I suppose they wouldn't be born good.
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Most people aren't evil, but there's alot of aholes around,lol
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Do you not see a contradiction between that opinion, and your constant complaints about everything you perceive as an infringement of liberty? You see violations of basic human rights in the gun laws, drug laws, marriage laws, and so on ad nauseum, in the U.S., and all over the world. I'm accustomed to hearing that from you, and I very often agree with you. But then you turn around and say that men are fundamentally good.
No, no I don't.
You see, if I believed human beings are fundamentally aholes and idiots that are prone to acts of incompetence and evil, then there'd be no choice but limiting our rights and freedom and having the benevolent few regulate and control our lives. In fact, the whole base of modern progressivism and big government philosophies is that you just can't trust most people. The best example of this is Thomas Hobbes' vision of anarchy where, in absence of a benevolent government, we'd all be swallowed by a storm of violence.
If you look at the history of leftist sociology and politics, it's full of people trying to attack the classical-liberal notion that people are inherently competent to decide in their own affairs. Lester Ward, who wanted government to be run by ivory-tower social-engineers, Thorstein Weblen who wrote books about how the consumers supposedly buy stuff that they don't really need and government needs to direct stuff better, and of course, guys like Marx and Engels.
And people easily buy into this, because it's very easy for people to go 'Sure, I'm smart, but those other guys, they're crazy". I call it the Tech Support Syndrome.
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So, back to the thread topic...
I talked to my aunt at length yesterday. She and her husband live in Barrington, IL.
She was mentioning Blagojevich's approval rating was in the crapper before he got busted, and that since it's now down to a whopping 13%, she was curious where that 13% of Illinois' population resided. =D
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You see, if I believed human beings are fundamentally a--holes and idiots that are prone to acts of incompetence and evil, then there'd be no choice but limiting our rights and freedom and having the benevolent few regulate and control our lives. In fact, the whole base of modern progressivism and big government philosophies is that you just can't trust most people. The best example of this is Thomas Hobbes' vision of anarchy where, in absence of a benevolent government, we'd all be swallowed by a storm of violence.
You couldn't possibly be more wrong. It is precisely because humankind are basically evil that we dare not grant too much power to one or the other of them. Authoritarian states are quite good evidence for the basic evil of mankind. Limiting one man's liberty does nothing to deal with this problem, as the only available rulers are other evil men.
It would be odd indeed, if a nation steeped in Calvinist doctrines of total depravity was not influenced by this. The writings of the Founders make it abundantly clear that men are not to be trusted to hold sway over other men. That is why they sought "a nation of laws, not men."
If you look at the history of leftist sociology and politics, it's full of people trying to attack the classical-liberal notion that people are inherently competent to decide in their own affairs.
Precisely, "their own affairs." To say that mankind is basically evil is not to say that men are basically neglectful of their own temporal well-being. Quite the opposite, in fact. But give a man ultimate power over another man (without, or sometimes even with, the bonds of paternal love or previous friendship), and the man's fallen nature becomes apparent in most cases.
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I'd humbly disagree with brother werewolf. Children are inherently not good. They are born selfish. They cry and act up as infants because they are selfish. The reason they are selfish is because they need to be. They are dependent on others. They don't smile and burble and coo for food, a diaper change or attention. They cry and squall and demand. Infants are cuddled and hugged and rocked and generally bonded with in order to overcome the inherent selfishness by love and kindness.
Later when they start to move around a bit, say 2 or 3 they start to get worse. They are still selfish, but now they are curious as well. Curiosity and selfishness breeds problems. Fortunately, they do respond to love, kindness and direction.
Children have to be taught to be good. There are too many examples of children who did not have the benefit of good teaching.
If one does not take a child in hand, lovingly teach them the difference between right and wrong, turn their selfishness into selflessness you wind up with children who remain inner directed.
I think brother werewolf confuses the result of his very good parenting skills, his love and attention with some natural good in children. His experience, imho, is because he did what needed to be done. He taught them to be good. He civilized them and it evidently worked. He taught them to be good.
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It would be odd indeed, if a nation steeped in Calvinist doctrines of total depravity was not influenced by this.
I am fully aware that the 19th century argument for limited government was in part motivated by the Calvinist understanding of original sin. As you surely know, not all Founders shared this view, and to be sure, some fractions believed in it more than others did. Recall, in this vein, Cecilia Kenyon's Men of Little Faith - one of the most seminal articles on the birth of the Constitution, and Akhil Reed Amar's monography on the Bill of Rights. To sum it up, here, the Federalists bought into this view to a greater extent than the opposition (some of the Anti-Federalists expressed doubts). To say Calvinist views of original sin dictated (rather than influenced) the formation of the Constitution would be stretching the historical truth.
Furthermore, classical-liberal thought continued to evolve after the Founders. Adam Smith and Edmond Spencer, for example, expressed a greater belief in the competence of individual men than the Founders did, and certainly much more than, say, Hamilton did (who was a truly creepy fellow).
But give a man ultimate power over another man (without, or sometimes even with, the bonds of paternal love or previous friendship), and the man's fallen nature becomes apparent in most cases.
I do not feel that I am inherently fallen. I feel that I am a good person and so are you.
Regardless, I feel that power offers man three kinds of corruption. The obvious kinds are there - the ability to rule over other men or to accept bribes or otherwise manipulate the office for one's own personal gain - but I feel the most insidious immorality occurs when men believe that they need more power to help other people, that other people need their help forced on them , not from these.
I studied with a young lady who volunteered with the Israeli equivalent of your Child Protection Services. She was convinced that her agency needed more and more power to seize children from their parents, that it was always better to remove a child from a family than otherwise. In fact, she thought the American notion of having to go before a court before seizing a child in all cases where a child was not in immediate danger of harm to be ridiculous. She did not understand at all when I pointed out that she may not be the best arbiter of what's good for other people's children.
[It is to be said here that where I live, this agency is a LOT more abusive than its American equivalent].
Was she evil? Was she corrupt? No, she genuinely wanted to help children. Yet in her desire to help those children she, and others like her, ruined many families too. Multiply it by thousands of people who genuinely want to help out, and a small fraction who are really evil or corrupt (who are surely few), and you get modern big government.
I apologize for not answering your and grampster's post in more detail. I am currently at Ben-Gurion Airport, waiting for 2swap to arrive from Germany, and my battery is running out. I will post more tomorrow or later today, and hopefully will be able to provide you with more detailed references and maybe even footnotes. :D
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Your friend with Child Protective Services is a perfect example of why even the most well-meaning humans are evil, when left to their own devices. Perhaps you are distracted by the word "evil." I could have said bad, or morally flawed, they amount to the same thing. I'm not saying that all people are Hitler or Manson, I'm just saying that they are inclined to commit moral wrongs from time to time, or even continually.
To say Calvinist views of original sin dictated (rather than influenced) the formation of the Constitution would be stretching the historical truth.
And "influence" was the word I used. ???
And again, don't confuse moral weakness with incompetence. While I don't agree with the slogan that "greed is good," it reflects a more precise truth. To wit, one reason that limited government, and the free market, work is that they offer fewer temptations to human nature. If all men are wicked, it follows that you would let each man be responsible for himself, and learn from his mistakes, only intervening when one man has violated another man's clear rights; rather than give over-weaning power to a few (corrupt) men, to lord it over other corrupt men. Also, this allows each of us to do what we do best, look out for ourselves. It is a form of social organization that allows for the impiousness of human nature, and channels it to a pragmatic good. As opposed to previous systems that trusted in the magnanimity of kings or noblemen.
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Mmmm, can we get back to playing Whack-A-Mole on Gov Blago and the rest of the elected mopes from the state of Illinois ??
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I tried bringing it back from the thread veer once, and pretty much failed, it appears.
5 pages is enough, regardless.
Enjoy the annual Politics Place vacation, folks.