IL governor Blagojevich in federal custody

[Ron]

Also, Jonah is quite explicit about stating human nature is immutable. That is in itself nonsense.

Because since the beginning of recorded history mankind has made such great strides in combating corruption, lol...

[Scout26]

We are not in a culture of absolute power. Nor are 21st-century Americans anywhere near the same as Romans.

Ever been to Chicago ??

I live here.  Da Mayor is as close to a Roman Emporer as we'll see in this lifetime....

Come on, even Jesse Jackson sucks up to Richie Shortshanks.... How do you think JJ Jr. got his Congressional seat ??

[Ron]

I was born in Chicago and have lived 10 minutes from Cook County for the last 30 years. I have had a front row seat to the corruption.

In fact my grandpa was a precinct captain for many years under the first Daley's reign. He was rewarded with a "job" with the city for his good work that he only had for a short time. That little gig landed my grandpa and grandma Blue Cross/Blue Shield health insurance for life somehow. My grandpa died in 1974 and grandma still has her top notch insurance paid for by the city of Chicago to this day.

[MicroBalrog]

Because since the beginning of recorded history mankind has made such great strides in combating corruption, lol...

Is your Presidency determined by competing Marine Corps divisions? No?

Do you operate a system of human chattel slavery?

[Ron]

Is your Presidency determined by competing Marine Corps divisions? No?

Do you operate a system of human chattel slavery?

The outward manifestations of the corruption have been beaten back by liberty and rule of law no doubt.

The corrupt nature of men, especially in positions of power and authority remains basically unchanged though.

Slavery and ascension to power through force still occur in our world. It hasn't been vanquished yet.

[MicroBalrog]

The outward manifestations of the corruption have been beaten back by liberty and rule of law no doubt.

The corrupt nature of men, especially in positions of power and authority remains basically unchanged though.

Slavery and ascension to power through force still occur in our world. It hasn't been vanquished yet.

And yet there are vast areas of the world where we have controlled our corruption to some extent. This was unknown completely in centuries past.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

And yet there are vast areas of the world where we have controlled our corruption to some extent.

where?

[MicroBalrog]

And yet there are vast areas of the world where we have controlled our corruption to some extent.

where?

North America. Europe. Even some parts of the East are vastly better than they used to be only a few centuries ago.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

North America. Europe. Even some parts of the East are vastly better than they used to be only a few centuries ago.

fixed  i've never lived in europe so i hesitate to say.  unwilling to use a whitepaper to decide

[MicroBalrog]

fixed  i've never lived in europe so i hesitate to say.  unwilling to use a whitepaper to decide

So I take it you don't have an opinion about anything that happened prior to your birth.

Read Burkhardt's Rennaissance Italy, where he describes how selling of honor titles and government posts went on openly and nobody minded - then tell me if your Blagojevich is anything like that. He's being prosecuted and will be tried - which in itself suggests modern American society doesn't approve of his actions.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i have opinions,  and they are just that opinions  subject to the classic limitations
i have the possibility of actual observation during my time on earth and those observations carry more weight with me.  consider  a failing in my dotage but i am skeptical of categorical pronouncements

[Manedwolf]

North America. Europe. Even some parts of the East are vastly better than they used to be only a few centuries ago.

Haha. No. I know someone who lives in Italy. The government there is not only absolutely corrupt, it's damned near impossible to remove someone from office once they get their claws into the chair. They tell me all the time about the stuff that goes on even in local politics.

[MicroBalrog]

Haha. No. I know someone who lives in Italy. The government there is not only absolutely corrupt, it's damned near impossible to remove someone from office once they get their claws into the chair. They tell me all the time about the stuff that goes on even in local politics.

And now go read Burkhardt about how Italy used to be like only 300-400 years ago. NOT in the Roman era.

Note I am not saying progress is inevitable and always ongoing. But it IS possible and it sometimes happens. Sometimes it gets rolled back. But it does exist.

You surely would agree it is possible to corrupt a man. Rationally then, it is also possible to uplift a man.

[longeyes]

I'm sorry, but that is a pile.

We are in a post-July 4th culture.

We are not in a culture of absolute power. Nor are 21st-century Americans anywhere near the same as Romans.

A few small boats, fueled by the Enlightenment and Anglo-Protestant rectitude, have been sailing against the wind of human fallibility for centuries.  We can thank those comparative few for reason, liberty, and honest dealing, and we can thank them for the science and technology and free inquiry that have created the semblance of civilization, otherwise known as material progress, that has spread over a growing part of the globe.

But the storms are gathering, and although corruption isn't the universal religion, it's damn close.  A crook with a GPS-enabled cellphone in his hand is still a crook.

[Scout26]

Is your Presidency determined by competing Marine Corps divisions? No?

Do you operate a system of human chattel slavery?

Umm, Richie Shortshanks doles out contracts and favors to the various ethnic groups (meaning their leaders) to keep them happy...

The patronage army he has created could be considered Human Chattel.....Vote for who Richie says or lose your job, have your life destroyed, etc.....

It may not be exactly Roman, but it is very medival....

[Desertdog]

Corrected;
It may not be exactly Roman, but it is very medival evil....

[roo_ster]

You know, I take it back. Three cops could have probably lifted that guy out of the car.

Also, Jonah is quite explicit about stating human nature is immutable. That is in itself nonsense.

Really.

Do tell where the darker impulses of humanity have been bred/evolved out, rather than socialized to the margins.

[Manedwolf]

He apparently just all of a sudden pardoned 22 people.

Illinois is out of control.

[MicroBalrog]

Really.

Do tell where the darker impulses of humanity have been bred/evolved out, rather than socialized to the margins.

I don't actually THINK most people are evil. Sure we have a proportion of tyrants and gangsters and whatnot. But they're a minority.
The majority of people cut their bread every day with knives quite bigger than a Kershaw and never kill a man with them, and then pilot giant guided missiles to work (you know them as 'cars'), fueling them with an explosive ('gasoline' or 'diesel'). Most of the people in the world bring up healthy children that don't end up as gangsters or welfare bums or tyrants. Civilization exists. The fact I can send this message and you can read it is only possible due to the cooperative effort of hundreds of millions of people. We (with the exception of some parts of Africa) have civilization, not Lord of the Flies.

[Perd Hapley]

Do you not see a contradiction between that opinion, and your constant complaints about everything you perceive as an infringement of liberty?  You see violations of basic human rights in the gun laws, drug laws, marriage laws, and so on ad nauseum, in the U.S., and all over the world.  I'm accustomed to hearing that from you, and I very often agree with you.  But then you turn around and say that men are fundamentally good. 

[Werewolf]

But then you turn around and say that men are fundamentally good. 

Humans are fundamentally good. They are born that way. My personal experience with raising 3 daughters to adulthood, now raising my niece's son since his birth (I've adopted him) and having 5 grandkids have convinced me of that.

Babies come into the world a blank slate. They are naturally loving and good creatures for the 1st years of their lives. There's no guile or hate in them. They don't lie, steal or do anything else that's evil until around age 4 or so. At that point they begin to be influenced by outside influences over which most parents have no control. Parents can negate the negative influences if they care to and keep their kids on the path to good. Unfortunately some just don't care enough to make the effort and kids go down the wrong path.

Humans are born good - it is their life experiences that turn them bad.

Caveat: there is evidence that some genetic defects can drive a person down an evil path. In that case I suppose they wouldn't be born good.

[CDiPrecision Gunworks]

Most people aren't evil, but there's alot of aholes around,lol

[MicroBalrog]

Do you not see a contradiction between that opinion, and your constant complaints about everything you perceive as an infringement of liberty?  You see violations of basic human rights in the gun laws, drug laws, marriage laws, and so on ad nauseum, in the U.S., and all over the world.  I'm accustomed to hearing that from you, and I very often agree with you.  But then you turn around and say that men are fundamentally good. 

No, no I don't.

You see, if I believed human beings are fundamentally aholes and idiots that are prone to acts of incompetence and evil, then there'd be no choice but limiting our rights and freedom and having the benevolent few regulate and control our lives. In fact, the whole base of modern progressivism and big government philosophies is that you just can't trust most people. The best example of this is Thomas Hobbes' vision of anarchy where, in absence of a benevolent government, we'd all be swallowed by a storm of violence.

If you look at the history of leftist sociology and politics, it's full of people trying to attack the classical-liberal notion that people are inherently competent to decide in their own affairs. Lester Ward, who wanted government to be run by ivory-tower social-engineers, Thorstein Weblen who wrote books about how the consumers supposedly buy stuff that they don't really need and government needs to direct stuff better, and of course, guys like Marx and Engels.

And people easily buy into this, because it's very easy for people to go 'Sure, I'm smart, but those other guys, they're crazy". I call it the Tech Support Syndrome.

[Gewehr98]

So, back to the thread topic...

I talked to my aunt at length yesterday.  She and her husband live in Barrington, IL.

She was mentioning Blagojevich's approval rating was in the crapper before he got busted, and that since it's now down to a whopping 13%, she was curious where that 13% of Illinois' population resided.   

[Perd Hapley]

You see, if I believed human beings are fundamentally a--holes and idiots that are prone to acts of incompetence and evil, then there'd be no choice but limiting our rights and freedom and having the benevolent few regulate and control our lives. In fact, the whole base of modern progressivism and big government philosophies is that you just can't trust most people. The best example of this is Thomas Hobbes' vision of anarchy where, in absence of a benevolent government, we'd all be swallowed by a storm of violence. 

You couldn't possibly be more wrong.  It is precisely because humankind are basically evil that we dare not grant too much power to one or the other of them.  Authoritarian states are quite good evidence for the basic evil of mankind.  Limiting one man's liberty does nothing to deal with this problem, as the only available rulers are other evil men. 

It would be odd indeed, if a nation steeped in Calvinist doctrines of total depravity was not influenced by this.  The writings of the Founders make it abundantly clear that men are not to be trusted to hold sway over other men.  That is why they sought "a nation of laws, not men." 

If you look at the history of leftist sociology and politics, it's full of people trying to attack the classical-liberal notion that people are inherently competent to decide in their own affairs.

Precisely, "their own affairs."  To say that mankind is basically evil is not to say that men are basically neglectful of their own temporal well-being.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  But give a man ultimate power over another man (without, or sometimes even with, the bonds of paternal love or previous friendship), and the man's fallen nature becomes apparent in most cases.