Author Topic: Unintended and Unforseen Consequences  (Read 9548 times)

AJ Dual

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Re: Unintended and Unforseen Consequences
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2011, 04:29:47 PM »
Well, the .gov contractor is a BETTER situation in terms of generating economic VALUE (do not confuse with moral value) than the direct .gov employee at least. That is, presuming that the contractor produces some sort of durable good. Because the manufacture of raw materials into parts is still a key way that value is created to provide some GNP parity to the fiat currency.

And there's an expanding trickle-down effect of the same thing through all the sub-sub contractors and raw material providers too.

However, while it's "better" it's all still shell-game Keynesian economics in the end. The dragon still eats it's tail.

And it still does not change that a .gov contractor getting "taxed" is still just a shell game. At best, the contractor can hold the tax money out of profits paid by the .gov and make some micro-interest on it. From an accounting standpoint though, the .gov could just as easily underpay the contractor by the amount they'd be taxed later, and call it even.

It's just that the tax code, and areas of taxation, income, corporate income, FICA, payroll tax, is so complex, it's much easier to compute it after the fact, than proactively discount it going forward.
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De Selby

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Re: Unintended and Unforseen Consequences
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2011, 06:08:29 AM »
I think you may be confused. A free-market/rational self-interest view of economics doesn't posit that people are omniscient, but only that they usually do what seems best to them. Nor does it (usually) claim that people always act out of mere economic self-interest. Usually, some allowance is made for less tangible concerns. At least, that was always my understanding.


My earlier question remains.




It doesn't take a rocket scientist, much less omniscience, to recognise the principles of the group-buy and the cartel.  If you have a large group, and some ability to refuse service meaningfully, you have much more bargaining power.  It's also obvious in the marketplace, where union workers have better pay, conditions, and benefits than non-union workers by far. 

Anti-union people are all over this thread and this board, and there are articles by them every day in the papers. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Unintended and Unforseen Consequences
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2011, 07:37:50 AM »
I was talking about your example of people who made bad investments. How was that not clear?

I was also very clearly making a distinction between anti-unionism, and disagreements with the actions of particular unions. How was that not clear?

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De Selby

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Re: Unintended and Unforseen Consequences
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2011, 07:48:16 AM »
I was talking about your example of people who made bad investments. How was that not clear?

I was also very clearly making a distinction between anti-unionism, and disagreements with the actions of particular unions. How was that not clear?



How is it not clear that rhetorical questions rarely serve to drive a fruitful conversation?
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RevDisk

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Re: Unintended and Unforseen Consequences
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2011, 08:19:10 AM »
Balog,      All the money the Government contractor  makes comes from the Gov.-  Returning a portion of it as a "tax", is no different than it being withheld to start with, in the form of a lower price for the product.     As far as the "tax" not belonging to the Feds, I can assure you they believe it does. =)

Ah...  I don't know of a single defense contractor that is above 500 employees that solely sells to the US government.  Every defense contractor I've seen has a bunch of different programs going at the same time, as needed for survival.  If you're overly specialized and a program/project gets canned, you're now shut down instead of just running lean for a while.  This is why I work at a civil aircraft plant for a company known for its military programs. 

I'll leave it to the economic theorists here to whether defense contractors "produce".   They do, by any metric.  I suppose it'd be a question of arguing whether it should include govt revenue, govt revenue minus taxes or whatever metric you'd like.   


Personally, I have a job that is well paying because we are a non-union shop with less taxes than CT.  De Selby, by your standards, we are obviously being foolish to fight so hard to keep the unions out.  By our standards, we like our jobs, the pay is decent enough, the benefits aren't bad, and we would like all of these things to continue, not go away.  Could we unionize, and browbeat the company to give us every dime possible?  Sure.  Then our jobs would go away within a couple months to a couple years. 

It wasn't corporate propaganda that brainwashed us into believing this.  Making aircraft is a bit on the knowledge intensive side, so the majority of folks that don't wash out have slightly more information processing capacities than some industries.  It's simple logic to us.  Plus some of the older guys love telling union stories.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Unintended and Unforseen Consequences
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2011, 12:58:04 PM »
Unions can maintain their power only by regulatory capture and undemocratic methods. 

Government mandated closed shops, card check in lieu of secret ballot elections, tinpot dictatorship tactics of intimidation to prevent regular secret ballot votes to retain or rescind union representation.

Since they have to maintain capture they use the dues not for negotiation or pensions but to elect legislators who will support their "el uniondente for life" regimes; regardless of the political affiliations or wishes of their members.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Unintended and Unforseen Consequences
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2011, 01:28:02 PM »
How is it not clear that rhetorical questions rarely serve to drive a fruitful conversation?

Are you kidding me?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 06:16:30 PM by Fistful »
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sanglant

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Re: Unintended and Unforseen Consequences
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2011, 08:30:59 AM »
give DeS a brake, he lost his mirror. =)