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Author Topic: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious  (Read 30288 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #100 on: June 27, 2012, 09:04:59 PM »
If someone is trolling, and you take the bait and respond, are you responsible for the trolling?
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DittoHead

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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #101 on: June 27, 2012, 09:20:20 PM »
Quote from: scout26 on June 27, 2012, 08:42:06 PM
If Joe Gunshopowner knowing and willfully sold guns to prohibited persons (Straw Buyers) he would be guilty of a Federal Offense.   The Gunshop Owners told the ATF that either a) They knew these to be prohibited persons and/or b) They suspected they were prohibited persons.  In all cases the ATF told them to proceed with the sale(s).
That's how sting operations work. Undercover agents selling drugs, firearms, or whatever else in order to arrest people buying are not breaking the law.
Quote from: zxcvbob on June 27, 2012, 08:47:12 PM
That depends; was it illegal for you to sell that car?  Did you know at the time you sold it that the car would be used to commit a felony?
As noted above - law enforcement is allowed to do things that would otherwise be considered illegal during sting operations under controlled circumstances. They were obviously not controlled properly for fast & furious.

Quote from: fistful on June 27, 2012, 09:04:59 PM
If someone is trolling, and you take the bait and respond, are you responsible for the trolling?
If someone's comment adds nothing to the discussion should they be ignored? :angel:
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zxcvbob

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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #102 on: June 27, 2012, 10:07:28 PM »
Quote from: DittoHead on June 27, 2012, 09:20:20 PM
That's how sting operations work. Undercover agents selling drugs, firearms, or whatever else in order to arrest people buying are not breaking the law.As noted above - law enforcement is allowed to do things that would otherwise be considered illegal during sting operations under controlled circumstances. They were obviously not controlled properly for fast & furious.
"not controlled properly"?   :facepalm:  No attempt was made to arrest the buyers; the field agents were ordered to stand down when they tried to follow them.  A better analogy would be a police captain stealing guns and drugs from the evidence room and selling them on the street -- to raise money for the Christmas party.  If someone dies from it, he should be prosecuted for murder. (in the 2nd degree or 1st? I'm not sure)  If he pitched the idea to the chief first and the chief OK'd it, the chief is just as guilty.

(and I'm sure someone can come up with a much better analogy than that)
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DittoHead

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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #103 on: June 27, 2012, 10:22:17 PM »
Quote from: zxcvbob on June 27, 2012, 10:07:28 PM
If someone dies from it, he should be prosecuted for murder. (in the 2nd degree or 1st? I'm not sure)  If he pitched the idea to the chief first and the chief OK'd it, the chief is just as guilty.

I guess I just disagree with this concept then. If he sells someone drugs and they OD, he should be prosecuted for selling drugs, not murder. If he sells someone a gun and they kill someone - not his problem and he should enjoy his Christmas party (other than the stealing evidence part, which I'm not really sure how that fits in this analogy). I believe in personal responsibility. Selling guns isn't wrong, killing people is.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #104 on: June 27, 2012, 10:52:36 PM »
I guess you call that "adding to the discussion."  ;/
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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #105 on: June 28, 2012, 09:25:38 AM »
Quote from: DittoHead on June 27, 2012, 09:20:20 PM
That's how sting operations work. Undercover agents selling drugs, firearms, or whatever else in order to arrest people buying are not breaking the law.As noted above - law enforcement is allowed to do things that would otherwise be considered illegal during sting operations under controlled circumstances. They were obviously not controlled properly for fast & furious.
If someone's comment adds nothing to the discussion should they be ignored? :angel:

If undercover agents were selling hundreds of kilos of cocaine to a gang, with no attempt to actually CATCH that gang, yes, some folks would be asking awfully pointed questions. We know how sting operations work. We know leakage occurs. That is a FAR cry from intentionally coercing gun owners into making illegal sales, not attempting to recover the weapons and trying to engineer restrictions on civil rights from criminal activity. Especially when it involves intentionally arming essentially a civil war next door to the US, with the express intention on getting folks killed.

It's not an undercover investigation if you never try, and probably never wanted to, catch the bad guys.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #106 on: June 28, 2012, 11:22:35 AM »
Kind of hoping Congress takes the ire over the SCOTUS decision on Obamacare out on Holder today.
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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #107 on: June 28, 2012, 11:27:31 AM »
If you are selling X, and the buyer tells you they will use X to commit a crime, and you sell it to them anyway you are in fact guilty as an accessory. That IS personal responsibility.
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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #108 on: June 28, 2012, 12:50:02 PM »
Quote from: AJ Dual on June 28, 2012, 11:22:35 AM
Kind of hoping Congress takes the ire over the SCOTUS decision on Obamacare out on Holder today.

I am hoping for a b****-slap of epic proportions....
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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #109 on: June 28, 2012, 01:28:51 PM »
I hear the Black Caucus, as well other colorful Cauci, may walk out.  Would that they would keep walking...
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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #110 on: June 28, 2012, 02:34:39 PM »
Preferably east, about 75 miles....  matter of fact, most of the elected idjits can just take a 75 mile walk east.

ETA:  50 miles wasn't enough....
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #111 on: June 28, 2012, 02:34:48 PM »
Quote from: longeyes on June 28, 2012, 01:28:51 PM
I hear the Black Caucus, as well other colorful Cauci, may walk out.  Would that they would keep walking...

Right on.
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Scout26

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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #112 on: June 28, 2012, 02:56:51 PM »
Quote from: DittoHead on June 27, 2012, 10:22:17 PM
I guess I just disagree with this concept then. If he sells someone drugs and they OD, he should be prosecuted for selling drugs, not murder. If he sells someone a gun and they kill someone - not his problem and he should enjoy his Christmas party (other than the stealing evidence part, which I'm not really sure how that fits in this analogy). I believe in personal responsibility. Selling guns isn't wrong, killing people is.

The part highlighted is the criminal part.   Same as allowing prohibited persons to buy guns (they are prohibited for a reason). 

Knowingly and willfully selling guns to Bad People(tm) is where you get to take responsibility for what Bad Things(tm) happen with those guns afterward.   The BATFEIO is supposed to keep guns out of Bad People's(tm) hands, not give them guns with pretty pink bows on them.

You can "disagree" with the concept of Accessory all you want.  But you might want to read up on it before you run afoul of it....
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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #113 on: June 28, 2012, 04:43:04 PM »
House votes that Holder is in Contempt.  255-68-1.  House Democrats lead by the Black Caucus walk out.

How soon before I get to see Holder do the perp walk?

 [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]
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Scout26

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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #114 on: June 28, 2012, 05:01:13 PM »
Not sure who Katherine Eban is, but I've never read anything so vacuoius regarding F&F.  She totally negelcts what the Gun Shop owners have testified too, and blames everything on weak laws.   And there's not one word about NICS checks, just 4473's.  If you had never bought a gun you'd never know what a complete farce this article is.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/
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seeker_two

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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #115 on: June 28, 2012, 05:03:40 PM »
Quote from: scout26 on June 28, 2012, 04:43:04 PM
House votes that Holder is in Contempt.  255-68-1.  House Democrats lead by the Black Caucus walk out.

How soon before I get to see Holder do the perp walk?

 [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]

About the same time Romney becomes conservative....contempt without impeachment is toothless....
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zxcvbob

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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #116 on: June 28, 2012, 05:17:04 PM »
They *could* send the Sgt at Arms to Holder's office and arrest him right now if they wanted, and hold him behind bars until Issa is satisfied that all the documents have been turned over (that could take months to verify, even if Holder surrendered them immediately)  They would have to release him when congress adjourns -- when is that, in December?

BTW, where can I find out who voted for what?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 05:29:07 PM by zxcvbob »
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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #117 on: June 28, 2012, 06:15:47 PM »
Quote from: scout26 on June 28, 2012, 04:43:04 PM
House votes that Holder is in Contempt.  255-68-1.  House Democrats lead by the Black Caucus walk out.

How soon before I get to see Holder do the perp walk?

 [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]

You won't.  It's just more meaningless grandstanding by some in Congress.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Exec Privledge for Fast and Furious
« Reply #118 on: June 28, 2012, 06:28:27 PM »
Quote from: scout26 on June 28, 2012, 05:01:13 PM
Not sure who Katherine Eban is, but I've never read anything so vacuoius regarding F&F.  She totally negelcts what the Gun Shop owners have testified too, and blames everything on weak laws.   And there's not one word about NICS checks, just 4473's.  If you had never bought a gun you'd never know what a complete farce this article is.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/


That is a pretty long article, and I haven't finished it. It starts with the repeated claim that no guns were walked. About half-way down, it describes a case of ATF gun-walking in some detail. It laments that the NRA keeps a gun database from being established, but describes ATF agents building a database. It claims the Obama Administration has capitulated to Congress. Capitulation is a funny way to describe the claiming of executive privilege.

This seems to be the new tactic that some of the pundits are using, to claim there never was any scandal. Maybe they should tell that to Holder and Obama, so they can stop hiding things. After all, even if no crimes were committed, the procedural stuff can still nail you. Ask Scooter Libby.


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Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

Reporters are always reporting stuff like that as if we are supposed to be shocked and dismayed to read it.
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