Quizno's Subs

[Paddy]

So, a licensed, certified nutritionist and a medical doctor hadn't the foggiest clue about what is probably the single most common nutritional myth on the planet.  Just because they went to school and have letters after their name doesn't make them any less human, or any less susceptable to bad information.  I spend a great deal of time researching the facts before I haul off and make a decision on something as critical as my nutrional needs.  Most of that time is getting to the bottom of the mountain of bad information. 

They're ALL incompetent charlatans because ONE didn't answer a question to your satisfaction?   

Here's what: Find a competent, qualified nutritionist who'll say that a double double bacon cheesburger, large fries and extra large coke provide adequate nutrition in proportion to the calories. 

You won't

 

[K Frame]

He gave you the answer WHY.

The American lifestyle is FAR more sedentary today than it was even 30 years ago.

It's also not the processing of foods that is the main culprit, it's the QUANTITY.

That's the "HOW", not the "WHY".

What caused the demand for increased portion sizes?  Lack of nutrients in overprocessed food. Simple. 

You certainly have a very warped sense of causality.

WHY do Americans weight too much? They ingest too many calories and don't get enough exercise.

HOW do Americans gain too much weight? They ingest too many callories and don't get enough exercise.

They're the exact same thing.

To claim that one somehow outstrips the other in the relative order of importance is stupid.

A calorie is a calorie.

Ingest too many calories relative to the amount you burn, whether they come from fat, stoneground whole grains, or honey, and you will gain weight.

To try to claim that the entire reason why Americans weigh too much is because we eat refined foods is akin to believing that the Rods of Ra can make you lose weight if you place them strategically around your house.

It's pretty damned obvious that you don't have a degree in the nutritional sciences, and yet you're freely spreading theories for which there is virtually no concrete scientific support.

Do yourself a favor and quit telling others to stop doing the exact same thing you're doing yourself. It's disingenuous and hypocritical.

[Brad Johnson]

So, a licensed, certified nutritionist and a medical doctor hadn't the foggiest clue about what is probably the single most common nutritional myth on the planet.  Just because they went to school and have letters after their name doesn't make them any less human, or any less susceptable to bad information.  I spend a great deal of time researching the facts before I haul off and make a decision on something as critical as my nutrional needs.  Most of that time is getting to the bottom of the mountain of bad information. 

They're ALL incompetent charlatans because ONE didn't answer a question to your satisfaction?   

Nope.  They are, however, just as susceptable to bad information masquerading as good information.  To have a licenced, certfied nutritionist and an MD right there in the room with me and agreeing with each other on a common food myth was a real eye-opener.  In the meantime I've found that many people who should be in the know, aren't.  All too often they are mouthpieces for the latest pop-food fashion coming down the pipe.

Brad

[Brad Johnson]

To try to claim that the entire reason why Americans weigh too much is because we eat refined foods is akin to believing that the Rods of Ra can make you lose weight if you place them strategically around your house.

Again you mock the Rods of Ra...

Brad

[mtnbkr]

Some people will tank up on fruit thinking it's a free ride.  It isn't.  That sweet little treat contains calories, too, in the form of natural sugars.  The average apple has 50-60 calories.  Bananas have 115-130.  For comparison, an avocado has 190-200 calories (mostly from the oils).  In case you didn't know, avocados can be as high as 70% oil by weight.  Good oil, but oil nonetheless and loaded with calories (around 9 per gram, if memory serves).

Yeah, but eating 3-4 apples is much harder than 2 candybars and has additional health benefits in the form of fiber, vitamins, etc.

Dried fruit is another thing entirely though (from a calorie to size perspective).  I have had to stop eating my new favorite, dates, because I can easily put away several hundred calories-worth.  The fiber and other benefits are still there, but they're too easy to over-indulge due to the size.

Chris

[Brad Johnson]

Yeah, but eating 3-4 apples is much harder than 2 candybars and has additional health benefits in the form of fiber, vitamins, etc.

I know.  I was trying to give perspective, not to know apples.  By the way, I like Pink Lady apples in case someone has a case or two laying around.

I have had to stop eating my new favorite, dates, because I can easily put away several hundred calories-worth.

Currants are an evil little "gotcha", too, at 200 calories.

Brad

[Paddy]

Ingest too many calories relative to the amount you burn, whether they come from fat, stoneground whole grains, or honey, and you will gain weight.

That's the point.  Overprocessed foods contain way too many calories in proportion to their nutrition.

It's pretty damned obvious that you don't have a degree in the nutritional sciences, and yet you're freely spreading theories for which there is virtually no concrete scientific support.

Really?  You don't there are a plethora of qualified nutritionists who will advise replacing highly processed food with more natural food?

Do yourself a favor and quit telling others to stop doing the exact same thing you're doing yourself. It's disingenuous and hypocritical.

Uh, I'm not a huge waddling fatass, either. 

Sheesh.  Nobody's talking about sending out the SWAT teams to shut down Burger King.  Chill.  Have an apple.  I'm going to the range.

[Manedwolf]

The thing about dates and figs and the like though is that if you eat too many, they won't be around long enough for you to worry about digesting...

[Brad Johnson]

That's the point.  Overprocessed foods contain way too many calories in proportion to their nutrition.

Okay, so what about honey?  It's pure sugar, but it isn't processed.  Or may avocados?  They are 2/3 oil, which is about as dense as you can get on the calorie-per-gram scale.  Or maybe bacon, sliced right off the hog?  It just happens to be mostly fat which is nothing but concentrated calories.  Not processed though.

I can keep going if you want me to...

Brad

[Brad Johnson]

The thing about dates and figs and the like though is that if you eat too many, they won't be around long enough for you to worry about digesting...

 

Brad

[K Frame]

"Really?  You don't there are a plethora of qualified nutritionists who will advise replacing highly processed food with more natural food?"

A recommendation from someone with a degree is NOT the same thing as verifiable, quantifiable evidence derived from long-term studies.

Giving someone a degree does not instantly convey all-knowing godhead status upon them.

There is NO body of direct evidence that shows that the American propensity towards obesity is CAUSED by, or even greatly influenced by, refined foods.

[Perd Hapley]

Name me some places where you can get a SMALL sandwich anymore. Like just enough, half a grilled chicken sandwich or something, not a ginormous sandwich with two heavy sides, something blopped with mayo, or a "wrap" the size of a five-inch cannon shell?

Actually, half a sandwich at Panera is a pretty decent lunch all by itself.  Get some free water from the fountain, and you're eatin' good for under three bucks.  Your prices may vary. 

I usually order the small sandwich at sub shops, as it's quite enough.  And usually, the mayo and sides are completely up to you.  I wish more places would serve a reasonably-sized cup of ice water, even if I had to pay a nickel for the cup. 

What caused the demand for increased portion sizes?  Lack of nutrients in overprocessed food. Simple. 

A)Cheaper food, mainly a result of advances in refrigeration and farming tech. Edited, because I forgot about the business models that found cheaper ways to sell food.  First A&P, then supermarkets. 

B)Gluttony.  It's not that previous generations didn't want to stuff themselves full of junk food.  It's just that they couldn't afford to, money-wise. 

[Joe Demko]

B)Gluttony.  It's not that previous generations didn't want to stuff themselves full of junk food.  It's just that they couldn't afford to, money-wise. 

Exactly right.

[Gewehr98]

I'm printing this thread out and handing it to my sister, who's a degreed University of Wisconsin dietician.

I know she'll be laughing by the end of it.

I can almost hear her asking, "Who is this RileyMc character?"   

[K Frame]

"A)Cheaper food, mainly a result of advances in refrigeration and farming tech. Edited, because I forgot about the business models that found cheaper ways to sell food.  First A&P, then supermarkets."

Geez, Fistful, everytime I think I'm going to finally put you on ignore you come across with something truly prescient like that...

I think it was one of the people on Food network who said that Americans have available to them nearly 3 times as many brands of packaged foods as any other nation on earth.

A large part of that is probably the polyglot nature of our society, especially in urban areas. The profusion of ethnic supermarkets in the DC area is just incredible, and the number of ethnic foods carried in the "American" supermarkets is just staggering at times.

While I can't be sure of this, I suspect that, in comparison to other nations, American food also consumes a much smaller part of our personal budgets.

[Paddy]

I'm printing this thread out and handing it to my sister, who's a degreed University of Wisconsin dietician.

I know she'll be laughing by the end of it.

I can almost hear her asking, "Who is this RileyMc character?"   

I call your bluff, Gewehr98.  IF your sister, who is a degreed dietician,  contradicts my statements (and I want proof she contradicted them, not second hand from you) I will retract everything I said here.

And even if she does (which I am confident she will not), you've still got Mike Irwin's quote to deal with

Giving someone a degree does not instantly convey all-knowing godhead status upon them.

Have at it. 

[Paddy]

There is NO body of direct evidence that shows that the American propensity towards obesity is CAUSED by, or even greatly influenced by, refined foods.

How do I gently say "Bullshit"?  You don't need a 'direct body of evidence' (whatever that is) to understand a few simple facts:

1) Overprocessed foods (most of what we eat) have been stripped of their original nutrients, vitamin, minerals, enzymes, etc.  IOW, the stuff your body needs.  Fructose, fat, chemicals, preservatives, colorings, artificial 'flavorings', and all sorts of (who knows what?) are added.

2) The human body needs the nutrients, not the additives.

3) People eat more (yes, that's the cause of obesity, eating more as a result of processed foods), they ingest more sugars and fats while their bodies are screaming for basic nutrients, and the wind up being huge waddling fatasses.

If you need a protracted multimillion dollar 'study' to demonstrate that, I think you're way behind the power curve, so to speak.

[Perd Hapley]

Sincere questions, not gotchas. 


I thought fructose and fat were natural sources of nutrition, found in the un-processed foods eaten by previous generations. 

Also, I want to know how a lack of nutrients can make a person fat.    Question withdrawn. 

[wooderson]

Also, I want to know how a lack of nutrients can make a person fat. 

If I had to venture a guess:

Lack of nutrients means you aren't filling up (for long) means you're having to put away more food to keep your stomach from rumbling. More food = more calories = more of a fat-ass.
The lack of nutrients also means that whatever you are eating is made up of 'empty calories' - those things that go straight to your belly.

By fructose, I would guess Riley is referring to 'high fructose corn syrup.' I avoid that stuff whenever possible - and sometimes it's not. Corn Flakes is loaded with it! My beloved Corn Flakes, the best dry snack food on earth.

[Perd Hapley]

Thanks, woody.  I was confusing nutrients with calories.

Also, I suspected as much about fructose.  I'm just wondering if Riley knows the difference.     Or maybe actual fructose is added to foods?  Like I said, they are sincere questions. 

[K Frame]

We have yet ANOTHER new term in the Reilly arsenal...

Overprocessed.

So.

At this point you've jumped from processed to highly processed to OVERprocessed...

What term will you come up with next? Supercalifragilisticprocessed?

Let's review...

You lack any sort of degree in food sciences...

You're unable to provide any scientifically grounded research on the effects of (insert shock word denoting degree of processing here) processed foods on weight gain...

You're confusing natural products (such as fructose and fat, both of which are found abundantly in unprocessed foods)...

And you're apparently now claiming without coming out and saying it that fortified products (products to which nutrients have been added during processing) are apparently somehow still devoid of nutritional value.

And now you're saying that you accept those premises based on... well, hell, I don't know what it's based on. God knows what the basis is for those beliefs. Perhaps little blue elves?

Now, I don't think that anyone is claiming that all processed foods are benign. Hell, Twinkees are the epitome of processed foods, and they're horrific.

But, you're the only one who is claiming that processed foods are Satan's loin juice and are directly responsible for all obesity in the United States.

It's curious, really...

You're more than willing to take the word of a nutritionist or two, but you're not willing to actually seek out anything factual on the subject that might disprove your pet theory.

That's not scientific. That's Rods of Ra crap.

So, given that, I think it's pretty clear what's bullshit here, and what's not.

But, that's just you, I guess.

Hey, did you know that someone with some sort of degree in something or the other told me that large doses of cyanide cure the ravages of aging?

[Manedwolf]

By fructose, I would guess Riley is referring to 'high fructose corn syrup.' I avoid that stuff whenever possible - and sometimes it's not. Corn Flakes is loaded with it! My beloved Corn Flakes, the best dry snack food on earth.

Kellogg's is not the only brand of corn flakes. Be an informed consumer. There's other brands out there, and if your supermarket has a section for smaller "healthier food" companies, look at the cereals in it. If you have Trader Joes, look in there. At last glance at mine, I spotted corn flakes with only a bit of honey for sweetener and no HFC in them, corn flakes that are gluten free, flakes made from blue corn instead to turn your milk blue and horrify people, and flakes made from other heirloom grains even.

Just need to read ingredients!

[Monkeyleg]

OK, I've read enough. Tomorrow night I'm going to order an extra-large pizza with cheese, sausage, mushrooms, black olives, onions, pepperoni and extra cheese.

I may die before the rest of you, but I'll die happy.

[Paddy]

I don't know what's so hard to understand.  Processed foods (mostly carbohydrates) have been chemically altered to increase their shelf life.  This changes a complex carb into a simple carb; it removes fiber, healthy oils, vitamins and minerals.  The digestive process turns carbs into glycogen-a sugar. Simple (refined, processed) carbs are digested much faster than the body can metabolize. Since too much sugar in the bloodstream is fatal, along comes a big insulin rush.  The insulin stores what glycogen it can in the liver and muscles.  The overabundance of glycogen, coming from the processed crap you just ate, is turned into fat by insulin.  That's how processed food makes you fat.

A complex (more natural) carb takes longer to digest, so your body doesn't have to deal with a big sugar rush; the glycogen is stored and metabolized more slowly.

'Refined' sugars are those that have been stripped of natural vitamins and minerals (calcium, magnesium, phosphorus,  and some other trace minerals and enzymes).  The human body needs these minerals in order to  digest sugar. When you eat refined sugars, the body pulls these nutrients from itself (tissue and bone).

This is not a scientific explanation by any means.  It is no doubt an oversimplification of the mechanism.  Nonetheless, that's what and how it happens.   Non-issues like references to the Rods of Ra and food nazis don't change these facts.

[Gewehr98]

At last glance at mine, I spotted corn flakes with only a bit of honey for sweetener

Yeah, but who the f&#* wants to eat that?  The cardboard in the box would taste better, even before I sprinkled sugar on the corn flakes. What's for lunch, Manedwolf, plain rice cakes?

This thread is certainly interesting.  I'm waiting for RileyMc to give us more sage medical advise, like he did in a previous thread.  I told him why Americans are fat, and he still didn't buy it, because I didn't use his favorite term-of-the-day, overprocessed.   Jeebus.