Author Topic: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?  (Read 8492 times)

Ben

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Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« on: August 11, 2007, 05:39:34 AM »
Uses a stolen credit card to buy a lottery ticket, then TWO WEEKS AFTER WINNING THE LOTTERY is caught STILL using the stolen credit card.

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Woman Must Forfeit $1 Million Jackpot
AP
Posted: 2007-08-10 19:23:14
Filed Under: Crime News, Nation News
MEDFORD, Ore. (Aug. 10) - A judge ruled that a woman who used a stolen credit card to buy a winning scratch-it ticket has no right to the $1 million prize.

Jackson County Judge Ray White ruled Thursday that the winnings were the proceeds of illegal activity and must be forfeited under Oregon law.

Prosecutors say Christina Goodenow of White City used a credit card that belonged to her then-boyfriend's dead mother to buy the lucky lottery ticket at a market in Central Point in October 2005.

Goodenow asked lottery officials to keep her win quiet, claiming to be a victim of domestic violence. But police learned of the crime about two weeks later as Goodenow continued to use the stolen credit card.

The Oregon Lottery had already paid Goodenow $33,500, the first of 20 annual payouts. She spent the majority of the money, including a big chunk that went to pay off nearly $12,000 owed on the credit card.

Goodenow, who pleaded no contest to forgery, cheating and aggravated theft, maintains she bought the winning ticket with cash from her own pocket. Goodenow said she plans to appeal.

Besides stripping Goodenow of her winnings, the judge sentenced Goodenow to a month in jail. But White gave her credit for the six months she served earlier this year for possessing methamphetamine.

Goodenow must spend two years on probation.


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Devonai

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2007, 05:41:55 AM »
If you subsequently pay of the balance of $12,000, can the crime still be classified as theft???
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wmenorr67

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2007, 05:52:46 AM »
That is a first I heard of being able to use a credit card to buy lottery tickets.  Most places it has to be cash.

Doesn't matter if she "paid" back the money.  She still stole and used the credit card.
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Vile Nylons

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2007, 06:00:01 AM »
Murphy at it again! Ya gotta love it.  grin

Devonai

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2007, 06:05:19 AM »
But isn't the goal of stealing a credit card to not pay off the balance?

The ends rarely justify the means, but sometimes the outcome can't be ignored.  Who was harmed by the theft?  What were the damages?  What is the appropriate punishment?  What's the appropriate compensation?

"You are hereby ordered to pay off the balance of the credit card.  Wait a minute, you did that before you were caught.  Well, uh, don't do it again!  I mean the stealing part."
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wmenorr67

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2007, 06:18:14 AM »
Did you not see where the card belonged to her then boyfriend's DEAD mother?
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Devonai

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2007, 08:35:02 AM »
Uh huh.  My previous points still stand.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2007, 09:26:59 AM »
Quote
MEDFORD, Ore. (Aug. 10) - A judge ruled that a woman who used a stolen credit card to buy a winning scratch-it ticket has no right to the $1 million prize.



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Standing Wolf

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2007, 01:27:25 PM »
What's the problem? What's she done that the government hasn't been doing for decades?
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Len Budney

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2007, 06:41:07 PM »
Doesn't matter if she "paid" back the money.  She still stole and used the credit card.

Well, that's an interesting question. Under libertarian law (as opposed to US law), if I steal money and use it to buy the car, the one I robbed has a claim against me, but the one who sold me the car does not. The victim might win a money judgment against me, or he might convince the judge to transfer the car to him, or to compel me to return it so as to repay what I stole. But that's all between me and my victim. The car dealer isn't actually involved.

Similarly, if I steal a dollar from you, use it to buy a raffle ticket, and then win a Harley, guess what? I owe you a dollar. Unless the raffle contract makes provision for such a case, the guy running the raffle has no claim against me whatsoever. The Harley is still mine, and you aren't entitled to the raffle ticket or the Harley--only to your dollar back (plus interest, recovery costs, etc.). I didn't steal a Harley from you; I stole a dollar from you.

In this case, the "victim" is the boyfriend's dead mother, who of course is in no position to press charges--and besides, was apparently repaid what was stolen. The boyfriend might count as a victim depending on the nature of his inheritance from his mother. The credit card issuer is probably the victim of fraud by the terms of the credit contract. But since the bill was repaid, neither they nor the boyfriend have any claim against her (beyond interest and recovery costs). And finally, the lottery has no claim at all; there is almost certainly no contractual provision for them to take the winnings back under these circumstances. The winning ticket was bought by the woman, and where she got the money is between her and her victim(s).

So it seems to me that justice requires that she pay off the credit card, reimburse the issuer for any costs associated with her fraudulent use of the card, repay the boyfriend for any costs her actions have imposed on him--and keep her lottery winnings. Most people would insist--without even thinking about it--that she should be stripped of the winnings and just generally smacked around a bit. That's also my first reaction, but when I think about it I'm rather torn on the question.

What leaves me torn can be illustrated with the raffle. Suppose that I stole a dollar and spent it on an unusual raffle: instead of getting a Harley or nothing, buyers of a raffle ticket either win $1,000,000,, or else have their right kneecap shattered by a thug. A handful of hardy souls want that billion so badly that they're willing to take the risk, and I'm one of them. But since I don't have a dollar, I steal one from you. Now, if I win, everyone would probably agree you should get the billion because "it was your dollar." But if I lose, nobody would agree that you should get your kneecap shattered because "it was your dollar." So if you get all the reward and none of the risk, it must not be true that using your dollar made it your ticket, and you aren't really entitled to whatever comes out of it.

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Bigjake

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2007, 07:39:37 PM »
Quote
The winning ticket was bought by the woman, and where she got the money is between her and her victim(s).

you missed the point.  what she did was ILLEGAL, a CRIME. (not to mention, a shitty thing to do, no matter if she paid the CC balance or not.)   do you honestly think she would've paid it had the ticket been a loser?

equivocate all you want,  it's still morally and legally wrong.


Len Budney

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2007, 04:12:08 AM »
you missed the point.  what she did was ILLEGAL, a CRIME. (not to mention, a shitty thing to do, no matter if she paid the CC balance or not.)   do you honestly think she would've paid it had the ticket been a loser?

That's right. All of what you say is true. But the crime in this case was stealing a dollar, and the penalty for stealing a dollar is not $1M.

Lots of people do immoral, crappy things. The world is full of jackasses. But the fact that they're contemptible, vile, low-down people doesn't make them fair game for whatever revenge we cook up in our heads. They can still only be punished for their actual crimes. Lots of jackasses do enough immoral things that karma says they should come back as a genital wart for it. But unfortunately, we aren't karma. We can only punish the actual crimes. We can't take vengeance on them for just generally being anal orifices.

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K Frame

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2007, 12:20:13 PM »
"They can still only be punished for their actual crimes."

Yep, and that's what's happening here. She's being punished for a crime.

Do you actually think that a burglar is allowed to keep the crap he's pilfered when he's caught in an apartment of stolen goods?

That's essentially the case here. She's trying to profit from an illegal activity, and virtually ever state has laws that prevent criminals from profiting from the illegal activities.

In other words, the proceeds (the lottery winnings) were the fruit of an illegal activity. Therefore they are subject to forfeiture as the proceeds of an illegal activity.

I see no problem at all.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2007, 12:28:26 PM »
Mike nails it.
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Len Budney

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2007, 12:42:57 PM »
"They can still only be punished for their actual crimes."

Yep, and that's what's happening here. She's being punished for a crime.

Do you actually think that a burglar is allowed to keep the crap he's pilfered when he's caught in an apartment of stolen goods?

She didn't steal a million dollars. She stole ONE dollar. (In connection with the lottery, that is. According to the article, she seems to have stolen about $12K in transactions having nothing to do with the lottery.)

She's a contemptible human being, if the report is doing her justice. But being a contemptible human being is not punishable with a million-dollar fine. And neither is stealing $1.

Quote
That's essentially the case here. She's trying to profit from an illegal activity, and virtually ever state has laws that prevent criminals from profiting from the illegal activities.

That's the interesting issue. There's good logic behind the principle that the criminal shouldn't profit from his crime; profiting from crime is an incentive to commit it.

On the other hand, I suspect the logical case is not our main reason for wanting her stripped of the money: it's simple vengeance. I'd consider it karmic justice if this lady lost all her money, or caught a rare disease, or was robbed by her boyfriend. But I'd also like to see Paris Hilton reduced to flipping burgers simply because she's a contemptible skank and I think karma owes her at least that much of a comeuppance--but unfortunately it isn't a crime to be a contemptible skank. Vengeance isn't justice, and we do need to be careful not to use "justice" as a fig-leaf for vengeance.

On the issue of justice, we note that "profiting from crime" is a broad notion. It's most often enforced to prevent criminals from writing a book about their crimes--but it didn't prevent G Gordon Liddy from profiting from his autobiography, which centers on his Watergate burglary. If they did strip him of the proceeds of that book, there's the fact that he hosts a radio show. His fame stems from Watergate, so shouldn't he be prevented by law from making any money from radio or television acting? Clinton's autobiography covered the actions that led to his perjury conviction and disbarment, so at least some of the proceeds should have been garnished on that basis. There are former drug lords who, after finishing their prison terms, went to work for major corporations--specifically claiming that their drug-smuggling experience made them expert in international trade law. And so on.

In general, there's no way to fairly and impartially enforce a law that "the criminal may not profit from his crime." That being the case, it's debatable that such a law should exist at all. The obvious cases where a rule like that makes sense--such as life insurance--can cover it contractually without needing any special law. They can, should and do specify right in their policies that a beneficiary is disqualified by any guilty involvement in the insured's death. The lottery can do make a similar rule if they wish. So we can accomplish the desired goal without making laws that are impossible to enforce fairly.

--Len.
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K Frame

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2007, 01:25:41 PM »
Our feelings on the issue are immaterial.

The legal issues at hand are not.

Do I personally want to see someone profit from illegal activites? No.

Do I personally want to see the criminal lose any profits he/she might have acquired from their illegal activities?

Yes.

Does that make me vengeful?

No.

That makes me someone who believes that criminals should NEVER be rewarded for their activities, no matter how small of a reward there would be.

I suspect that you'll find that that sentiment is exactly what is driving the other posters to this thread, as well.



"I'd consider it karmic justice if this lady lost all her money..."

That sentiment alone could make it seem as if you are being vengeful.


"but it didn't prevent G Gordon Liddy from profiting from his autobiography"

At the time that Liddy wrote his book there were no laws to prevent him from doing so. In part because of his earnings laws were passed, and have been upheld in court, to prevent exactly that. Liddy essentially exploited a loophole in the law.

"In general, there's no way to fairly and impartially enforce a law that "the criminal may not profit from his crime."

This is, however, not a general instance. It's a very specific scenario for which laws have already been written.


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Perd Hapley

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2007, 01:42:55 PM »
Quote
She didn't steal a million dollars.
  She bought the ticket with stolen money.  The ticket doesn't belong to her, so she cannot keep the lottery money.  End of story.  It is that simple.  She is not being fined 1 million dollars, she is being made to return one million dollars that does not belong to her.  She was awarded the money under false pretenses.
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K Frame

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2007, 01:50:50 PM »
"She bought the ticket with stolen money.  The ticket doesn't belong to her, so she cannot keep the lottery money.  End of story.  It is that simple. "

Oh, what the hell...

+1

 laugh
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2007, 02:38:39 PM »
This is scary.   shocked
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Paddy

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2007, 03:34:32 PM »
It's like the 'fruit of the poison tree'.  If she used the stolen credit card to buy the lotto ticket, then the winnings are not hers.  If she used her 'own' money, they are.

K Frame

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2007, 07:22:28 PM »
If anything, the lottery proceeds belong to the estate of the dead woman.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2007, 01:58:52 PM »
+1   Tongue
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Antibubba

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2007, 09:15:05 PM »
To answer your original question--
Quote
possessing methamphetamine.
--that should go a great distance in explaining things.


So here's another legal question: Why would the dead woman's heirs not have a valid claim to the lottery winnings?
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LadySmith

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2007, 12:22:07 AM »
Probably because without that stolen dollar, the winnings would not exist (for the heirs). Everybody goes back to square one.
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griz

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Re: Just How Stupid Can Stupid Be?
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2007, 05:08:01 AM »
Say my neighbor legally buys all the material needed for a house, then steals my hammer and saw to build the house.  When he gets caught, to whom does the house belong?
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