Islamic Law

[Hawkmoon]

You know, there might be something to be said for making the punishment fit the crime. I doubt the courts in the U.S. would agree, but there just might be something to be said for subjecting this guy to the same horrors to which he subjected his victim. That wouldn't br cruel or unusual, would it?

http://my.att.net/s/editorial.dll?fromspage=ch/c.htm&categoryid=&only=y&bfromind=7775&eeid=5915338&_sitecat=1522&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=-2&ck=&ch=ne

Rape, torture suspect goes on trial in NYC
Published: 6/5/08, 5:54 PM EDT
By SAMUEL MAULL

NEW YORK (AP) - An ex-convict went on trial Thursday on charges of raping, torturing and burning a Columbia University graduate student in a 19-hour attack during which her eyelids were slit and she was forced to take so many painkillers that her liver failed.

Robert Williams, 31, sat with chained arms and legs, his head lowered, as the prosecutor delivered an opening statement that left several people in the courtroom weeping.

Williams turned the victim's small one-bedroom apartment into "his torture chamber" and violated the 23-year-old woman "in every way imaginable and in some ways unimaginable," Assistant District Attorney Ann Prunty told the jury.

Prunty said Williams stopped the torture only after the victim - who at one point during the ordeal tried to kill herself - blacked out from hours of pain caused by knife wounds, boiling water, battering and sexual assaults.

"Then he could no longer feel power over another human being," Prunty said.

Williams is charged with kidnapping, arson, burglary and sexual assault. He faces life in prison if convicted.

The defendant's lawyer, Arnold Levine, tried but failed to have Williams declared mentally unfit for trial. Levine did not make an opening statement.

The victim, a Columbia University journalism graduate student, found Williams in her building's elevator in the Hamilton Heights neighborhood of Upper Manhattan when she came home around 9:30 p.m. on April 13, 2007, Prunty said. She said he followed her to her fifth-floor apartment and attacked her.

During the brutal ordeal, Prunty told jurors, Williams raped the victim, poured boiling water over her, hurled a pot of bleach in her face, ordered her to gouge out her own eyes with a pair of scissors, sealed her lips shut with glue and duct tape and slit her eyelids with a butcher's knife.

After one assault, he forced the woman to swallow a fistful of pills from her medicine cabinet and wash them down with four beers, Prunty said.

Doctors later said the woman's liver had failed, probably because of the medicine, and that a liver transplant might be necessary. Fortunately, the transplant was not needed, Prunty said.

The woman at one point tried to plunge a pair of scissors into her own neck in a bid to commit suicide.

After about 19 hours, Prunty said, Williams tied the naked, unconscious woman to a futon with computer cables and set it on fire. The woman awoke and smelled smoke, broke free and made her way to the hallway, where she was rescued.

Prunty said Williams' DNA was found on the victim and her clothing, and her DNA was found on his clothing. Security cameras captured him trying to withdraw money with the woman's ATM card, she said.

During the time she was conscious, Prunty said, the victim studied Williams closely. Prunty said every scar and feature she later described to police matched the appearance of the defendant.

[Manedwolf]

That would not be Islamic law as practiced in places like Saudi Arabia.

Remember how it works. It was her fault for tempting him, he couldn't help himself. He'd go off free, and her family would be punished.

[PTK]

During the time she was conscious, Prunty said, the victim studied Williams closely. Prunty said every scar and feature she later described to police matched the appearance of the defendant.

Good on her. Someone please buy this woman a gun and train her....

[mek42]

Good to know SCOTUS has ruled that the death penalty is cruel and unusual when applied to the crime of rape.  This is one case where permanent removal from society seems quite warranted.

Since NYC effectively disarmed her, I'm sure they will be happy to pay for her full medical treatment and however much counselling is needed to deal with the aftermath of this event.  [sarcasm]

[De Selby]

That would not be Islamic law as practiced in places like Saudi Arabia.

Remember how it works. It was her fault for tempting him, he couldn't help himself. He'd go off free, and her family would be punished.

Considering that Saudi Arabia doesn't really have Islamic courts, I'd be curious as to how we'd reach this conclusion. 

Anyway, yes, I agree here-the punishment for this crime, if proved, would clearly be death in Islamic law.  He deserves it more than most.

Edit: This reminds me of a case I heard of several years back, out of Lahore:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/mar/17/rorymccarthy

A Pakistani judge yesterday convicted a man of murdering 100 children and sentenced him to be strangled with an iron chain, chopped into pieces and dissolved in acid in front of the parents of his victims.
The grisly sentence for Pakistan's worst serial killing comes after a trial in which Javed Iqbal, 38, at first admitted the killings and produced a diary of his crimes before retracting his confession.

"Javed Iqbal has been found guilty of 100 murders. The sentence is that he should be strangled 100 times," Judge Allah Baksh told the court in Lahore. "His body should be cut into 100 pieces and put in acid, as he did with his victims."

[Hawkmoon]

I wasn't really thinking "death penalty" here. A quick and "humane" execution is far too good for this animal. I was thinking more along the lines of subjecting him to every one of the tortures to which he subjected this young woman.

THEN execute him. Strangling with chains followed by an acid bath sounds good ...

[S. Williamson]

Niska: [sing-song] Mr. Reynolds...
Mal: [moans]
Niska: You died, Mr. Reynolds.
Mal: ... seemed like the thing to do...
Niska: When you die, I can't hurt you any more. And I want two days at least, minimum.

 

Sometimes I wonder if we would be better off with people like Niska in charge of... proper punishment.

[The Annoyed Man]

You know, there might be something to be said for making the punishment fit the crime. I doubt the courts in the U.S. would agree, but there just might be something to be said for subjecting this guy to the same horrors to which he subjected his victim. That wouldn't br cruel or unusual, would it?

http://my.att.net/s/editorial.dll?fromspage=ch/c.htm&categoryid=&only=y&bfromind=7775&eeid=5915338&_sitecat=1522&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=-2&ck=&ch=ne

Rape, torture suspect goes on trial in NYC
Published: 6/5/08, 5:54 PM EDT
By SAMUEL MAULL

NEW YORK (AP) - An ex-convict went on trial Thursday on charges of raping, torturing and burning a Columbia University graduate student in a 19-hour attack during which her eyelids were slit and she was forced to take so many painkillers that her liver failed.

Robert Williams, 31, sat with chained arms and legs, his head lowered, as the prosecutor delivered an opening statement that left several people in the courtroom weeping.

Williams turned the victim's small one-bedroom apartment into "his torture chamber" and violated the 23-year-old woman "in every way imaginable and in some ways unimaginable," Assistant District Attorney Ann Prunty told the jury.

Prunty said Williams stopped the torture only after the victim - who at one point during the ordeal tried to kill herself - blacked out from hours of pain caused by knife wounds, boiling water, battering and sexual assaults.

"Then he could no longer feel power over another human being," Prunty said.

Williams is charged with kidnapping, arson, burglary and sexual assault. He faces life in prison if convicted.

The defendant's lawyer, Arnold Levine, tried but failed to have Williams declared mentally unfit for trial. Levine did not make an opening statement.

The victim, a Columbia University journalism graduate student, found Williams in her building's elevator in the Hamilton Heights neighborhood of Upper Manhattan when she came home around 9:30 p.m. on April 13, 2007, Prunty said. She said he followed her to her fifth-floor apartment and attacked her.

During the brutal ordeal, Prunty told jurors, Williams raped the victim, poured boiling water over her, hurled a pot of bleach in her face, ordered her to gouge out her own eyes with a pair of scissors, sealed her lips shut with glue and duct tape and slit her eyelids with a butcher's knife.

After one assault, he forced the woman to swallow a fistful of pills from her medicine cabinet and wash them down with four beers, Prunty said.

Doctors later said the woman's liver had failed, probably because of the medicine, and that a liver transplant might be necessary. Fortunately, the transplant was not needed, Prunty said.

The woman at one point tried to plunge a pair of scissors into her own neck in a bid to commit suicide.

After about 19 hours, Prunty said, Williams tied the naked, unconscious woman to a futon with computer cables and set it on fire. The woman awoke and smelled smoke, broke free and made her way to the hallway, where she was rescued.

Prunty said Williams' DNA was found on the victim and her clothing, and her DNA was found on his clothing. Security cameras captured him trying to withdraw money with the woman's ATM card, she said.

During the time she was conscious, Prunty said, the victim studied Williams closely. Prunty said every scar and feature she later described to police matched the appearance of the defendant.

Nah. A bullet to the head in an alley. Let the dogs eat him. I could never get pleasure from another's suffering. End them and move on.

[The Annoyed Man]

I wasn't really thinking "death penalty" here. A quick and "humane" execution is far too good for this animal. I was thinking more along the lines of subjecting him to every one of the tortures to which he subjected this young woman.

THEN execute him. Strangling with chains followed by an acid bath sounds good ...

And what would be gained by this? Nothing. You would become the man you despise.

[Standing Wolf]

Someone please buy this woman a gun and train her....

In New York? That's only for the very wealthy and politically connected. Commoners need not apply.

[Firethorn]

And what would be gained by this? Nothing. You would become the man you despise.

The dark part of my soul calls for a long and torturous session before his death.

The light part calls for a .45 to the back of the head shortly after the guilty verdict in the trial.

Yes, generally speaking I don't call for the death sentence in the case of simple rape.  I'll agree with the SC there.

On the other hand, this wasn't just rape.  This was rape, torture, mutilation, and attempted murder.

If we don't put a bullet in his head to protect society from further acts by this man, the logical part of me says that we should essentially make him her slave.  He works at hard labor, not eating if he doesn't work, and all monies go towards attempting to make her whole again.  Realistically speaking though, I think that we'd be better off saving the money of incarceration and simply execute him, putting the money it would cost to keep him in prison towards her treatment.  He could be Bill Gates and the money wouldn't be enough.

Is he mentally ill?  Sure, a mentally healthy person, by definition today, wouldn't commit those acts.  Still, by the old standard - he's competent to stand trial.  Insanity/incompetence pleas were intended to cover people way out of it - unable to understand what they were doing was wrong, whether due to lack of intelligence, hallucinations, etc...

On the subject of Islamic law, from the examples I've seen, in many cases justice isn't served to women who were raped.  On the other hand, I've heard of cases where justice WAS served.  An Islamic court official in the pursuit of justice can become quite creative in interpreting the law to gain the desired result.  In one case I remember, the rapist was forced to marry the raped woman.  Before you point out the tragedy of this - the court declared the union already consumated and immediately granted the woman a divorce along with half of his assets, including his pension.

Summary:  I think that they should either put him down like a rabid dog or put him to forced labor for the rest of his life.

[Standing Wolf]

Yes, generally speaking I don't call for the death sentence in the case of simple rape.  I'll agree with the SC there.
On the other hand, this wasn't just rape.  This was rape, torture, mutilation, and attempted murder.

Someday, perhaps decades hence, we'll understand the obvious: most rapes aren't sex crimes at all, but round-about or symbolic murder. Rape is an expression of abiding, profound hatred, usually of women, sometimes of children and men.

The high school boy who forces his girl friend because he so-called "just can't wait any longer" has committed a crime of passion. The man who has raped a succession of womenand the vast majority of rapists who end up in prisons are multiple repeat offenders, not first timershas expressed a passion for overwhelming and dehumanizing women. The method is the same in both crimes; the intent, however, is radically different.

So long as we fail to acknowledge the obvious, we'll continue to take no effective action against rapists.

[The Annoyed Man]

And what would be gained by this? Nothing. You would become the man you despise.

The dark part of my soul calls for a long and torturous session before his death.

The light part calls for a .45 to the back of the head shortly after the guilty verdict in the trial.

Yes, generally speaking I don't call for the death sentence in the case of simple rape.  I'll agree with the SC there.

On the other hand, this wasn't just rape.  This was rape, torture, mutilation, and attempted murder.

If we don't put a bullet in his head to protect society from further acts by this man, the logical part of me says that we should essentially make him her slave.  He works at hard labor, not eating if he doesn't work, and all monies go towards attempting to make her whole again.  Realistically speaking though, I think that we'd be better off saving the money of incarceration and simply execute him, putting the money it would cost to keep him in prison towards her treatment.  He could be Bill Gates and the money wouldn't be enough.

Is he mentally ill?  Sure, a mentally healthy person, by definition today, wouldn't commit those acts.  Still, by the old standard - he's competent to stand trial.  Insanity/incompetence pleas were intended to cover people way out of it - unable to understand what they were doing was wrong, whether due to lack of intelligence, hallucinations, etc...

On the subject of Islamic law, from the examples I've seen, in many cases justice isn't served to women who were raped.  On the other hand, I've heard of cases where justice WAS served.  An Islamic court official in the pursuit of justice can become quite creative in interpreting the law to gain the desired result.  In one case I remember, the rapist was forced to marry the raped woman.  Before you point out the tragedy of this - the court declared the union already consumated and immediately granted the woman a divorce along with half of his assets, including his pension.

Summary:  I think that they should either put him down like a rabid dog or put him to forced labor for the rest of his life.

I'm certainly in favor of execution for someone who commits the acts described at the beginning of this thread. I would carry out the execution myself if the legal system failed me and I was personally involved. I could care less about what Islamic scholars have to say on the matter or on anything at all. Bullet through the chin up into the cranium is appropriate. Torture is not.

[MicroBalrog]

Good to know SCOTUS has ruled that the death penalty is cruel and unusual when applied to the crime of rape.  This is one case where permanent removal from society seems quite warranted.

BAD Idea.

Seriously bad idea. Not because it's not warranted, it is, they deserve it.

But think of it - if this subhuman had known that he's facing the death penalty for this crime, he would have killed the woman rather than leave a witness.

I'm not making this up - the USSR once introduced the death penalty for rape, and canceled it after they saw a spike inmurders of rape victims.

[Firethorn]

But think of it - if this subhuman had known that he's facing the death penalty for this crime, he would have killed the woman rather than leave a witness.

While it's true in general, in this case he DID try to kill her, in a inhumane fashion along the lines of the rest of his attacks - he tied her to her couch and set it on fire.  She managed to escape.

[The Annoyed Man]

Good to know SCOTUS has ruled that the death penalty is cruel and unusual when applied to the crime of rape.  This is one case where permanent removal from society seems quite warranted.

BAD Idea.

Seriously bad idea. Not because it's not warranted, it is, they deserve it.

But think of it - if this subhuman had known that he's facing the death penalty for this crime, he would have killed the woman rather than leave a witness.

I'm not making this up - the USSR once introduced the death penalty for rape, and canceled it after they saw a spike inmurders of rape victims.

I think the guy was trying to kill her in this case. There were some strange details to the story though. She was sleeping on the couch and was set on fire which woke her up and then she escaped? Hard to imagine the scene. Perhaps it is poor reporting but after all she had been through prior I'm not sure how she managed to do that.

[Firethorn]

I think the guy was trying to kill her in this case. There were some strange details to the story though. She was sleeping on the couch and was set on fire which woke her up and then she escaped? Hard to imagine the scene. Perhaps it is poor reporting but after all she had been through prior I'm not sure how she managed to do that.

She wasn't sleeping, she passed out from the pains and drugs and such.  She woke up to the couch on fire when he went to dispose of her, it being no fun to continue the torture without her being conscious.

[The Annoyed Man]

I think the guy was trying to kill her in this case. There were some strange details to the story though. She was sleeping on the couch and was set on fire which woke her up and then she escaped? Hard to imagine the scene. Perhaps it is poor reporting but after all she had been through prior I'm not sure how she managed to do that.

She wasn't sleeping, she passed out from the pains and drugs and such.  She woke up to the couch on fire when he went to dispose of her, it being no fun to continue the torture without her being conscious.

It was the phrase "the woman awoke" that threw me off.

[MechAg94]

Good to know SCOTUS has ruled that the death penalty is cruel and unusual when applied to the crime of rape.  This is one case where permanent removal from society seems quite warranted.

BAD Idea.

Seriously bad idea. Not because it's not warranted, it is, they deserve it.

But think of it - if this subhuman had known that he's facing the death penalty for this crime, he would have killed the woman rather than leave a witness.

I'm not making this up - the USSR once introduced the death penalty for rape, and canceled it after they saw a spike inmurders of rape victims.

As said above, he did try to kill her.  I also think including torture and such along with rape makes this case a bit different from "I said no" type stuff. 

In general though, I really hate that argument.  If the punishment fits the crime, then let it fit.  Don't change punishments because you are afraid of what the criminals might do. 
Criminals these days have so little respect for human life anyway so I doubt it would change anything if we did it. 

[xavier fremboe]

Hopefully he'll have a full dance card in prison.

[MicroBalrog]

Yes, I agree. Torture + rape + attempted murder = clearly worthy of exeuction, or at least rotting in prison until further notice.

[86thecat]

Just give the SOB life in prison. Send him to a facility near Chicago with a free swastika/ klan tattoo then tell the inmates he's a racist child molester and a snitch.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

put him in high medium security  give him a single cell best one in the joint lots of extra priveledges  tell the guards to make a point outa being nice to him. have him get every perk and priveledge ahead of time. then just watch nature take its course. make sure his jacket in the office is missing some background.

[De Selby]

Yes, generally speaking I don't call for the death sentence in the case of simple rape.  I'll agree with the SC there.
On the other hand, this wasn't just rape.  This was rape, torture, mutilation, and attempted murder.

Someday, perhaps decades hence, we'll understand the obvious: most rapes aren't sex crimes at all, but round-about or symbolic murder. Rape is an expression of abiding, profound hatred, usually of women, sometimes of children and men.

The high school boy who forces his girl friend because he so-called "just can't wait any longer" has committed a crime of passion. The man who has raped a succession of womenand the vast majority of rapists who end up in prisons are multiple repeat offenders, not first timershas expressed a passion for overwhelming and dehumanizing women. The method is the same in both crimes; the intent, however, is radically different.

So long as we fail to acknowledge the obvious, we'll continue to take no effective action against rapists.

It's interesting you mention this-you identified a distinction in the Islamic rules on the subject.  The "high school boy"/date-rape scenario has its own set of defining elements, and the punishment is a lashing.

Using deadly force to complete the crime, however, is treated much differently-for that the guilty party gets the death penalty.

As disgusting as this monster is, I have to agree with 40 caliber on this one-let's just get rid of him and move on, no need to become sadists ourselves.

[Regolith]

And what would be gained by this? Nothing. You would become the man you despise.

The light part calls for a .45 to the back of the head shortly after the guilty verdict in the trial.

.22LR.  Ammo is to expensive these days to waste a .45 ACP on him.