Help a .Cheese. figure out where he wants to live

[The Annoyed Man]

The last few weeks have been trying for me.  I made some extremely difficult decisions.

I originally applied to law school with a low LSAT score due to freak circumstances.  I applied to schools that looked like I'd possibly get in, although most with the exception of the tier 4 schools were a stretch.

I immediately got into FIU here in Miami and Nova Southeastern in Davie.  I was wait-listed for many of the other schools though.

I retook the LSAT in June and was pleased that I got a top 11th percentile score.  I may take it again to see if I can go even higher.  The score difference though this time was HUGE.  I planned to take another year off and reapply to a new set of schools all within tier 1.

All of a sudden, American University offers me a spot over the phone a week ago.  I declined because I was worried I wouldn't be able to move to D.C. in time to start school without being exhausted from the move.

Then days later, Case Western offers me a spot.  They would be wonderful considering they are top 100 and pretty close to top 50 and best of all they're across from the Cleveland Clinic which would be great for a chronic illness I have.  I declined though for the same reasons as AU, and also with my new score I was planning to go only to tier 1.

Then the next day Santa Clara offers me a spot.  I declined because it's low on the top 100 list and is in CA.  I wouldn't survive in CA too long.  I'd have an aneurysm.

Then all of a sudden, University of Florida calls me on Friday.  That was a REALLY difficult decision.  It's a WONDERFUL school and the best school in the state.  It was the hardest decision I've ever had to make.  I declined the offer for 2 reasons, (1) with the expectation of reapplying and not expecting all of this wait list activity - I've set in motion plans for the year.  and (2) I'm not sure I want to end back up in South Florida for practicing law.  Turning down UF was however extremely difficult because should I want to practice in Florida, that IS the place to go.  Not to mention their tax law program is I believe ranked #2 in the country should I want to do tax law, and their faculty list is impressive to say the least.

Fortunately, my new creds look like I have a very good chance at being readmitted to all of those schools.  Not 100%, but good.

For years now I have been trying to figure out what city I want to eventually practice law in and have been researching which schools place the most NLJ250 jobs in those cities.

So far the cities I'm considering are Denver, Atlanta, Seattle, Washington D.C, and Philadelphia.

Chicago is out because I really couldn't stand to live there.  They just asked to call in the National Guard because crime is so high there.

NYC is out for a large number of reasons.  Whenever I visit there I have fun for 2 or 3 days, but on the 3rd day I'm ready to get out of there.  It's just too much of a mad house.

All of California is out because I'd rather be castrated than deal with their ridiculous taxes and laws.  Not to mention I don't even really like it.

Boston is out because I already lived there and didn't find it all that amazing.  Beacon Hill and the Boston common are wonderful places and that's where I lived last time.  The rest of Boston just doesn't float my boat.

A couple things that are important to me:

1) Considerable# of legal jobs
2) Large number of young professionals (women would be nice as I'm still single but looking to settle down sooner rather than later)
3) The seasons need to actually exist.  Here in South Florida we have 2 seasons only: Really freaking hot and pouring rain, and then still pretty hot and raining less.  I found while in Boston that the changing of the seasons seemed to elevate my mood and I find that the constant season here in Florida is just depressing for me.
4) It would be nice if the taxes are reasonable and if possible, no state income tax.  The second I understand is rare though.
5) Less crime is nice, but if there's a lot of crime I really feel it is important to be able to carry.  D.C. wouldn't allow that and I'd deal with it, but Philadelphia is nice in that respect, as is Atlanta, Seattle, and Denver.

anyways, please add any insight you might have into the things I should be looking for in a city, and also any cities I haven't considered.

Unfortunately, unless I get into a top 20 school, I'm limited geographically to where I can practice, mainly because of the network the school has set up through its graduates.

Top 20 is possible and I'm going to shoot for it, but there is less than a 50% chance it will happen.  I may retake the LSAT in October and make it more possible though.

.Cheese. is trying to figure out where he wants to spend the remaining 2/3s of his life.  Any advice you can offer is appreciated.

ETA: I haven't ruled out Texas either, but from what I hear the weather is not that great.  It's really hot in the summer, and really cold in the winter.  On the flip side the legal market is great, and the cost of living vs salary is currently better than most states for attorneys.  Starting salary is relatively high and cost of living is relatively low.

[Vodka7]

As a (two year) Philly resident, I can answer a few questions for you:

1.) No idea.  Sorry.
2.) Depends greatly on the neighborhood--stick close to Center City if that's your type of crowd.  Old City, the Gayborhood (I know, I know.  But there are a TON of straight women who live there), or *maybe* Northern Libs would be as far as you'd want to go.  Or University City if you're looking for bookish coeds, but just be sure you're out of there by the time you're thirty.  South Philly will be a lot more diverse and a lot cheaper, but your neighbors are generally going to be families or rich art students slumming it with daddy's money.  Still, it's an easy city to get around in with a car or a bike.  Me, I walk everywhere.
3.) We got that, along with the relatively mild mid-atlantic winters.  As a guy who came from northern Connecticut and lived in New Hampshire, I love not having to shovel my walk every single day for three months.
4.) The state income tax is fairly sane, the Philadelphia wage tax is not.  I pay an extra 5% for the crime of both working and living here.  I'm making up the difference because I was able to get rid of my car when I moved here, but it's still fairly aggravating to see each week on my paycheck.
5.) Differs radically by neighborhood.  http://inquirer.philly.com/graphics/homicide_map_2007/  Basically, stay away from North Philly, West Philly (except for University City), Southwest Philly (anything south of South St and West of Broad St), and take it by a block-by-block basis in South Philly.  The murder rate aside, crime isn't that bad.  And, we can carry.

Me, I'm an east coast guy.  Of the cities you mentioned, Denver and Seattle would be off my list immediately.  They just don't have the feel I'm looking for.  Atlanta's too hot.  D.C. has it's own set of problems.  For me it was really only ever Philadelphia or NYC, and I'm glad I landed here.  It's got a lot of problems (just ask me about the blue laws), a lot of quirks, and the city council is fairly insane, but it's an honest city with good people and a great atmosphere.

[The Annoyed Man]

but just be sure you're out of there by the time you're thirty

could you elaborate on that perhaps?

I'm 25 right now, and will be 26 when I start law school, so I'll be 29 when I graduate and 30 when I start practicing.  Even if I'm 29 when I start practicing, it would only be a few months until I'm 30.

[Vodka7]

Nothing against the area in particular.  A lot of people don't like UPenn's influence on the area, but I personally am all for anything that cleans up Philly, especially West Philly.  Just remember that no matter how safe campus and the areas immediately surrounding it are, you're still in West Philly.  Don't go west of 40th, or 45th if you want to push it, and stay in the Locust-Market area.  If you look at the map I linked, check out the area west of the Shuykill around Market.  Notice the absence of red dots.  Then zoom out a bit and see the abundance of red dots.

But really, the main reason to move out by 30 is that it's a college town.  Drexel and UPenn are there.  Freshman never get older, but we sure do.  There are safer, cheaper, nicer places to live once you graduate.  You just won't be able to walk to class in your pajamas.

[wmenorr67]

You could always look at the University of Kansas.  They have a top level law school and the midwest is not all that bad of a place to live.  The one downside to Lawrence is it is very liberal.  But you have Kansas City 45 minutes to your east.

[The Annoyed Man]

I was going to throw applications in to some midwest schools too, although I'm not sure where I'd practice (not Chicago for sure - if they need the National Guard to deal with crime I have no interest in even stepping foot there)

I got wait listed and then rejected at Indiana-Bloomington.  I'm pretty confident I'll get in this time.  It's a beautiful school and almost went there for undergrad because they offered me a very nice scholarship package.

I also was going to throw one in the mail to Ohio Moritz as I got rejected there too.  Although, my understanding of Ohio is that the people who live there wish they didn't.  It's supposedly fizzled out.  Cleveland is the only city I'm aware of there with a significant law market.

Kansas is a nice school, but their law school is only ranked at 73.  Case Western is 63, Indiana-Bloomington is 36, and Ohio Moritz is 32.  I'll probably apply to Indiana Bloomington again and Ohio Moritz.

Also, their placement at NLJ250 firms is fairly low.  About on par with the other "tier 2" schools (some people consider 50-100 tier 2 and others still consider it tier 1).

I am shooting for placement at an NLJ250, so those numbers are really important to me.

[wmenorr67]

I am sorry but I don't consider Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois the midwest.   But based on that don't overlook the Big 12 schools.  Kansas and Oklahoma both have good law schools.

[The Annoyed Man]

really?  What do you consider them?  I thought Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, and Minnesota were all midwest?

pardon me if I'm off on my terminology here.  What are the midwest states?

All of these terms "midwest" "northeast" "northwest" "southern" etc. are terms I'm not 100% clear on as I'm not sure where the boundaries really are.

[wmenorr67]

I would call them more mid east than midwest but that is just me.  I have always considered anything east of the Mississippi couldn't be the midwest.

[Regolith]

wmenorr....the term dates before the country acquired the Louisiana Purchase.  It's just that those wacky easterners haven't gotten the memo that there's actually people west of the Mississippi yet.   



Back in the 70s when my dad was going to college at Oregon State University he had a friend who was from back east whose girlfriend refused to join him in Oregon because she was afraid she'd get scalped by roving bands of Indians. 

[crt360]

ETA: I haven't ruled out Texas either, but from what I hear the weather is not that great.  It's really hot in the summer, and really cold in the winter.  On the flip side the legal market is great, and the cost of living vs salary is currently better than most states for attorneys.  Starting salary is relatively high and cost of living is relatively low.

Most of Texas is hot most of the time, then not quite as hot with a few moments of very cold tossed in just to mess with you.  Most of the law schools here are very good, despite their traditionally low rankings by those who figured out how to make a lot of money ranking schools.  We do not have a lot of the big city top 250 firms here - probably less than ten have their base offices in Texas.  We probably have close to 100,000 licensed attorneys in Texas and maybe 5% are with large firms.  That might be something to consider.  Similar to law school acceptance, the job you land has much more to do with your measured academic performance (or perceived performance) than the school you attended.  If you're in the top 5%, have some clerkship/internship experience, and interview well, you should be able to find a job in a large firm, no matter where you went to law school.  If you're in the lower 50% of your class, finding a good job will be harder, again, no matter where you went.

As well as you did on your last LSAT, I'd probably have jumped on that Florida offer if you qualify for resident tuition rates.  The cost of law school has gone from really expensive to stupidly expensive.  For every bright young grad that lands the $135,000 starting salary there will be another fifty or more that won't make $50,000 and some significantly less.  That's a hard reality to swallow with up to two hundred thousand in student loan debt and dreams of owning a home or supporting a family.

[De Selby]

Go to Washington and don't look back.  Just remember to live in VA.

[seeker_two]

ETA: I haven't ruled out Texas either, but from what I hear the weather is not that great.  It's really hot in the summer, and really cold in the winter.  On the flip side the legal market is great, and the cost of living vs salary is currently better than most states for attorneys.  Starting salary is relatively high and cost of living is relatively low.

Define cold.....I live near Waco (Baylor Law School), and I wore a light jacket through most of the last few winters. Snow is a very rare & light thing here, and winter day temps under 30 degrees are rare. Heat, however.....just look at weather.com for the zipcode 76706 today and decide for yourself...

Another thing to consider....due to all the oil money in our economy, the recession isn't as bad here as most states. Prices are a lot lower than most areas (esp. gasoline...now at $3.89), and we have a lot of local food production.

Give Texas a try....

[charby]

Look at University of Iowa, Drake and Creighton

[The Annoyed Man]

Anyone who thinks that the law market in Ohio has fizzled out is not paying attention.  Columbus is still growing in terms of the legal market.  Cleveland is also growing.  Cincinnati is also a hotbed, with the added bonus of the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals.  So, you might want to rethink the Moritz option.

Also, keep this in mind.  The state where you go to law school is very likely where you will end up.  It's natural because the schools tend to teach the law of the state they are in, and thus prep you for the Bar exam of that state.    Exceptions are the schools like Harvard, Yale, etc.  The top schools.

Also, law school is very much like any other school.  Once you graduate and get a few years of experience under your belt, where you went to school only matters if you're trying to become a law school professor.  To pactice law, the experience is all that matters.

[The Annoyed Man]

Also, keep this in mind.  The state where you go to law school is very likely where you will end up.  It's natural because the schools tend to teach the law of the state they are in, and thus prep you for the Bar exam of that state.    Exceptions are the schools like Harvard, Yale, etc.  The top schools.

Exactly.  I've been aware of that.  That's why I'm so desperately trying to figure out where to live.

[BridgeRunner]

I would totally go VA/DC.  Actually, before kiddo came along and complicated moving halfway across the country, I had my eye on University of Virginia (they have a specialization in mental health law that looked interesting).  A big advantage to the DC area is teh huge variety of summer jobs, including, incidentally, NRA clerkships. 

I chose a completely different path (excellent scholarship at tier 4 school, with focus on local small firm practice), but that was because of family considerations.  If I were single and free, I would have ended up in Virgina or the DC area. 

[roo_ster]

FWIW, I have refused very handsome offers for jobs n the NOVA, DC, Maryland area.

Learn a bit more about the area before jumping on the "Go to DC, my boy!" bandwagon.

[Tallpine]

Why do you want to be a lawyer

If where you live is important, then maybe you should choose a more portable career.

[The Annoyed Man]

Why do you want to be a lawyer Huh?

If where you live is important, then maybe you should choose a more portable career.

There's no need to give up my career choice.

I just need to carefully choose where I go to law school.

If there was only 1 law school in the country, and you ended up living in that state, then sure - I'd have a reason to question whether or not to become an attorney.  However, every state has at least 1 law school, and most have in excess of 3.

To directly answer your question, I want to be a lawyer because I think it is something that I would find personally satisfying and is something I'd be good at.

[Brad Johnson]

Another vote for Texas.  Lubbock, to be precise.  I don't know a lot about it's standing in the legal community, but Texas Tech School of Law is just up the street.

Housing is affordable, we have plenty to do, there are lots of travel opportunities within a day's drive, and people still say Hi and wave.

Brad

[Balog]

Another vote for Texas.  Lubbock, to be precise.  I don't know a lot about it's standing in the legal community, but Texas Tech School of Law is just up the street.

Housing is affordable, we have plenty to do, there are lots of travel opportunities within a day's drive, and people still say Hi and wave.

Brad

Then arrest you for buying sex toys...... 

[Tallpine]

However, every state has at least 1 law school, and most have in excess of 3.

Well, then why don't you check out Montana?

It seems like everybody eventually decides they want to live here, but of course they can't (good for us!) because of career and family, etc.

[seeker_two]

Another vote for Texas.  Lubbock, to be precise.  I don't know a lot about it's standing in the legal community, but Texas Tech School of Law is just up the street.

Housing is affordable, we have plenty to do, there are lots of travel opportunities within a day's drive, and people still say Hi and wave.

Brad

Then arrest you for buying sex toys...... 

....which, for an up-and-coming lawyer, can be the bridge from self-stimulation to self-representation....  

[Brad Johnson]

....which, for an up-and-coming lawyer, can be the bridge from self-stimulation to self-representation....  

And that bridges the gap bewteen "Ha! Ha!" and "Eeeeewww..!".   

Brad