Author Topic: My thoughts about politics  (Read 15659 times)

Balog

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My thoughts about politics
« on: January 24, 2012, 02:52:49 AM »
In an effort to A. not spend large amounts of time arguing with people on the internet & B. not get inordinately angry at stupid people on the internet, I'm trying to avoid posting in political threads here and elsewhere. But, that admirable self restraint is creaking under the influence of foolish people making silly arguments. So, as a way of venting without becoming embroiled in the online equivalent of a land war in Asia, here are my thoughts on this political season.

GOP primaries: it's currently a four man race, and I'll get to the candidates in a second. But first, can I just say that a great argument for the Republicans being unqualified to govern is the idiotic way they go about choosing a candidate. It's like they are trying to find a way to best ensure the eventual nominee is the least conservative. The Democrats assume that minorities, union workers, .gov sector workers etc will always vote for them no matter who they put up. The GOP assumes the same about everyone else. Why is that?

For all the big talk, the vast majority of all poli-critters both R & D are just that: career politicians who make bank playing both sides against the middle but who would never intentionally kill the golden goose and shrink Leviathan.

Speaking of career poli-critters, let's look at the candidates.

Mitt Romney.

Pros: nice family, fancy hair, appeals to the sort of "conservatives" who work at MSNBC and the NY Times, polls great with NorthEastern Ivy League credentialists, anointed the Chosen One by the Good Ole Boys club of the Republican establishment machine, and is enough of a moral vacuum we might be able to pressure him into not being totally evil.

Cons: flips more than a dolphin at Sea World, most easily told apart from John Kerry by his lack of military service, loathed by the majority of the GOP base, passed the bill that was the model for Obama Care (and continues to defend it, the one thing he hasn't flip-flopped on), lies about having been on all sides of every major issue, is the perfect caricature of the out of it rich white guy scamming the system for Obama to run against, very pro big fed.gov just wants to run it more efficiently, connects with the voters about as well as Daleks connect with the Doctor, and may not be able to pass a Turing test.

Newt Gingrich.

Pros: good at laying the smack down in debates, certainly knows how to play the game in DC, we might get moon colonies!, is sometimes honest about his flip flops, and appeals to the national sense of "honestly repent and you can get a second chance."

Cons: very pro big government as long as he's able to run it, egomaniacal narcissist, enough baggage to ballast the Titanic, generally slimy and as crazy as the media always claims Ron Paul is.

Rick Santorum.

Pros: appeals to social conservatives, great pro life record, and draws the most sympathy for the media attacking him unfairly (ie the google problem and attacking the way he mourned his dead son).

Cons: the google problem, massive authoritarian streak (even if it is wildly exaggerated by the media), strongest on the issues that are least important to many people this cycle.

Ron Paul.

Pros: the only candidate who isn't a vile and loathsome excuse for a human being, the sort of zealot True Believer who isn't just working the system to gain power, %95 of his positions fire up the base and resonate with libertarians as well as both social and fiscal conservatives, the only candidate who would actually reduce the size and scope of fed.gov instead of slowing growth slightly and calling it a cut.

Cons: comes off like a crazy old man, attracts hordes of fanatics who turn undecided folks off by their very rabidness, that %5 makes a lot of people hate him on a gut level, both the "conservative" and liberal media are on a 24/7 smear campaign, knows he won't get the nomination and is just trying to get enough influence to steer the party libertarian and set up his son for a later run, and would most likely be assassinated if he actually won the presidency.

So, tl:dr I hate all of the candidates with a realistic shot at winning the nomination. So, will I be holding my nose and voting "Anybody but Obama"?

Here are my thoughts on that. We, as a nation, have reached critical mass. We are officially past the tipping point where we can muddle along and pretend like borrowing ever larger amounts of money to fund every more inclusive socialism is sustainable. The country is bankrupt, and we'll collapse unless very drastic measures are taken and soon. None of the remaining candidates but RP would do anything even beginning to resemble that, and as I said even Ron Paul knows he won't be getting the nod. Still, any of the R's would at least destroy the country slightly more slowly right? I don't think so, and we really only need to look at Bush the Younger and Clinton to see why.

Remember when I said most poli-critters don't want to change the status quo or shrink fed.gov? When we had the House, Senate, and Presidency government exploded. Both invasive expansion of the police state (Patriot Act, Homeland Security) and increasing welfare and social meddling (Medicare Part D and No Child Left Behind) as well as horrific Constitutional violations like McCain Feingold (which Bush explicitly stated he thought was unConstitutional, just before signing it) were the name of the game. Since most politicians want to expand the fed.gov, and most politicians vote along party lines most of the time we can see that the PotUS being aligned with majorities in the Legislative branch makes things worse. But look at Clinton: horrid President but a R Congress fighting him tooth and nail actually managed to make some small gains.

I honestly think a strongly Tea Party Congress paired with the proven ineffectual Obama would do the least damage to the country. But I don't believe we'll get that sort of Congress.

Alexis de Tocqueville says it all in my opinion.

“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.”
―Democracy in America

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.”

“America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.”


America doesn't have a governmental problem. America has a societal problem, and the government reflects that. Americans are getting the government they deserve, good and hard. And if you don't believe national character makes a difference, look at the EU. What separates Germany from the PIIGS? Not natural resources or opportunity, but culture.

And above all else ours is a culture that venerates two things. Finding pleasure, and escaping consequences for your actions. We've incurred a level of debt (both at all levels of .gov and in housing/student loans/personal credit) that is literally unprecedented in history. We want all the toys and we don't want to wait. We've devalued the family by encouraging extended adolescence, vilifying responsibility, attacking men for being masculine and women for being feminine, and trying to divorce sex from relationship.

America has slaughtered 50,000,000 innocent children on the alter of avoiding the consequences of our actions. Our genocide is more bloody by far than the Nazis, and we did it not on the grounds of saving the species or necessity but out of convenience. How can a society like that survive?

It can't. If there is to be any hope of avoiding the on coming Dark Ages, it lies in a revolution of culture not of government. DC is a vile, rotten swamp not because it stands in opposition to our character, but because it reflects it. God help us all.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 02:59:15 AM by Balog »
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2012, 05:26:31 AM »
OK. I take it you like Ron Paul. Lets say he was elected president. Just what could he do?  What change could get start? 
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


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red headed stranger

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2012, 05:42:08 AM »
Quote
If there is to be any hope of avoiding the on coming Dark Ages, it lies in a revolution of culture not of government. DC is a vile, rotten swamp not because it stands in opposition to our character, but because it reflects it. God help us all.

QFT.  

If the culture changes, the government will follow. 


« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 06:27:00 AM by red headed stranger »
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MicroBalrog

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 06:13:51 AM »
OK. I take it you like Ron Paul. Lets say he was elected president. Just what could he do?  What change could get start?  

We've dealt with it, and dealt with it, and dealt with it over and over again. Is the answer Ron Paul supporters in this forum provided the last three times somehow wrong? Then address why.

[I will respectfully agree to disagree with Balog about most everything he wrote except for my view that RP is the best candidate.]
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"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Perd Hapley

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2012, 07:59:13 AM »
[Rant]

I think I agree with all of that.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2012, 08:12:53 AM »
OK. I take it you like Ron Paul. Lets say he was elected president. Just what could he do?  What change could get start? 

His overall point seems to be that the culture is too far gone to be saved by any one man. We must change ourselves in order to change Washington.
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Fitz

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2012, 08:30:02 AM »
OK. I take it you like Ron Paul. Lets say he was elected president. Just what could he do?  What change could get start? 

Did you READ the original post?
Fitz

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makattak

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2012, 08:42:21 AM »
I think I agree with all of that.

 I think I agree with most of that. I don't think Gingrich is as bad as Balog makes him out and I don't think Paul is as pure as the wind-driven snow.

However, I quite agree the culture is the problem and the government isn't the solution. America, quite literally, needs a "come to Jesus" moment.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

roo_ster

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2012, 10:15:39 AM »
I think I agree with most of that. I don't think Gingrich is as bad as Balog makes him out and I don't think Paul is as pure as the wind-driven snow.

However, I quite agree the culture is the problem and the government isn't the solution. America, quite literally, needs a "come to Jesus" moment.

Gingrich is worse than Balog describes and I'd say Paul is, too.

Balog is right in that the culture has degenerated.  How can we be surprised when the gov't follows society into the gutter?

The central conundrum of liberty is that it can only exist when people impose discipline on their own selves...and these last few decades have shown a marked degeneration in self-discipline.

Regards,

roo_ster

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Tallpine

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2012, 10:20:05 AM »
Quote
Rick Santorum.

...

massive authoritarian streak (even if it is wildly exaggerated by the media),

I don't believe that it is exaggerated at all. 

He has publicly stated something to the effect of "America is all about imposing your values on the people"  :mad:


Quote
Ron Paul ... would most likely be assassinated if he actually won the presidency

You are optimistic.  He won't live till the convention unless he gets trounced in the remaining primaries.  =(
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

TommyGunn

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2012, 10:55:57 AM »
Edited by author due to not having enough coffee (and other reasons)  :facepalm: :'(
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 11:00:21 AM by TommyGunn »
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Fitz

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2012, 10:56:43 AM »
He's talking about abortion, not war.


You missing that connection, and your subsequent post, makes for a HILARIOUS read. LOL


MURRICA!
Fitz

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I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

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TommyGunn

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2012, 10:58:27 AM »
He's talking about abortion, not war.


You missing that connection, and your subsequent post, makes for a HILARIOUS read. LOL
  OK,   :facepalm:
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Fitz

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2012, 11:03:10 AM »
  OK,   :facepalm:

Awwww, why'd you delete it? It was so very entertaining!  >:D
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

TommyGunn

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2012, 11:07:02 AM »
Awwww, why'd you delete it? It was so very entertaining!  >:D

Because it is not my purpose on this forum to provide comic relief to the jackwagons of the world. :mad:

Friggin' coffee turned out to be caffiene-free........................ :facepalm:
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Fitz

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2012, 11:08:22 AM »
Because it is not my purpose on this forum to provide comic relief to the jackwagons of the world. :mad:

Friggin' coffee turned out to be caffiene-free........................ :facepalm:

Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

TommyGunn

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2012, 11:11:37 AM »
I'm happy the jackwagons remain amused..............
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Fitz

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2012, 11:12:44 AM »
Calm down.

Also, what reason have I given you for the name calling?
Fitz

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I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

Balog

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2012, 11:24:48 AM »
I think I agree with most of that. I don't think Gingrich is as bad as Balog makes him out and I don't think Paul is as pure as the wind-driven snow.

However, I quite agree the culture is the problem and the government isn't the solution. America, quite literally, needs a "come to Jesus" moment.

I don't think Paul is pure and perfect. I just think his basic motivation is not a desire to accumulate personal wealth and power. And that makes him unique in this field imho.

Balog is right in that the culture has degenerated.  How can we be surprised when the gov't follows society into the gutter?

The central conundrum of liberty is that it can only exist when people impose discipline on their own selves...and these last few decades have shown a marked degeneration in self-discipline.



Pretty much, yeah.

[I will respectfully agree to disagree with Balog about most everything he wrote except for my view that RP is the best candidate.]

I appreciate that. We've had those discussions enough to know it's unlikely we're going to change the other persons mind, and I honestly do like and respect you in spite of ideological differences. So easy to set up the circular firing squad these days...
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Tallpine

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2012, 11:31:29 AM »
Quote
[I don't think Paul is pure and perfect. I just think his basic motivation is not a desire to accumulate personal wealth and power. And that makes him unique in this field imho.
/quote]

He already has wealth, and his refusal to say what most people want to hear proves that he doesn't desire power.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

makattak

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2012, 11:39:47 AM »
He already has wealth, and his refusal to say what most people want to hear proves that he doesn't desire power.

Quite the contrary. As you point out he already has wealth. I'm quite sure he wants power. He wants the power to implement HIS agenda, just as the other candidates do.

You don't get to implement your agenda by saying only what people want to hear. You have to lay out your own agenda and convince the people to accept it.

You are attributing negative motives to the other candidates and positive motives to Ron Paul because you agree with his agenda. Unless you think ALL the other candidates are being disingenuous about their positions (and I'll grant you I believe Romney is), then his motivations are no more pure nor more base than the rest. You just agree with his objectives.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

longeyes

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2012, 12:16:10 PM »
Glad to see you've come over to the dark side.  Yes, "it's the culture, stupid!"  We have good people, the question is do we have enough?

You don't change a culture that has reached this point of toxic no-return; you excise it--if you want to survive.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2012, 04:12:18 PM by longeyes »
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RevDisk

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2012, 05:42:34 PM »
You don't change a culture that has reached this point of toxic no-return; you excise it--if you want to survive.

I highly suspect I would be one of those you'd like to excise.  If so, I wish you good fortune.



I think America will last longer than folks think.  But every country is mortal.  They are born, they live, and eventually they grow old.  I believe we can turn the country around, but will not do so.  Too much short sighted perspective, which I believe is the true problem.  The inability to plan for the future.
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Balog

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2012, 05:45:29 PM »
No Rev, you're white so he'd probably be fine with you.

And I agree, the problem is a short sighted focus on now. People seem unable to think logically about the consequences of their actions and beliefs.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

red headed stranger

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Re: My thoughts about politics
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2012, 05:49:37 PM »
Quote
Too much short sighted perspective, which I believe is the true problem.  The inability to plan for the future.

Agreed. I personally believe an element of strong character to be the ability to defer gratification.
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