The European Atrocity You Never Heard About

[roo_ster]

"Peacetime" mass deportations of undesirables in cattle cars, mass graves, hundreds of thousands of dead men, women, and children.

[rhetorical]Which agency of evil caused this atrocity?[/rhetorical]


http://chronicle.com/article/The-European-Atrocity-You/132123/?sid=cr

The screams that rang throughout the darkened cattle car crammed with deportees, as it jolted across the icy Polish countryside five nights before Christmas, were Dr. Loch's only means of locating his patient. The doctor, formerly chief medical officer of a large urban hospital, now found himself clambering over piles of baggage, fellow passengers, and buckets used as toilets, only to find his path blocked by an old woman who ignored his request to move aside. On closer examination, he discovered that she had frozen to death.

Finally he located the source of the screams, a pregnant woman who had gone into premature labor and was hemorrhaging profusely. When he attempted to move her from where she lay into a more comfortable position, he found that "she was frozen to the floor with her own blood." Other than temporarily stanching the bleeding, Loch was unable to do anything to help her, and he never learned whether she had lived or died. When the train made its first stop, after more than four days in transit, 16 frost-covered corpses were pulled from the wagons before the remaining deportees were put back on board to continue their journey. A further 42 passengers would later succumb to the effects of their ordeal, among them Loch's wife.

During the Second World War, tragic scenes like those were commonplace, as Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin moved around entire populations like pieces on a chessboard, seeking to reshape the demographic profile of Europe according to their own preferences. What was different about the deportation of Loch and his fellow passengers, however, was that it took place by order of the United States and Britain as well as the Soviet Union, nearly two years after the declaration of peace.
...
Most disturbingly of all, tens of thousands perished as a result of ill treatment while being used as slave labor (or, in the Allies' cynical formulation, "reparations in kind") in a vast network of camps extending across central and southeastern Europe—many of which, like Auschwitz I and Theresienstadt, were former German concentration camps kept in operation for years after the war.

Damned european wars.  Neither 20th century world war was worth sticking our nose into beyond taking care of business vis a vis those who struck America.

[Perd Hapley]

I've heard about it.

Of course, being left to take one's chances in the Soviet bloc wasn't exactly a bowl of cherries, either. And Europe was a mess at that point in history, so the 500,000 deaths they mentioned were not necessarily due to the relocation, were they? Back then, East German girls were killing themselves, to avoid being raped for the seventieth time.

[vaskidmark]

Yep!  It's a little-known footnote in history.  I found out about it as a child in listening to stories of DPs who made it to the USA.  Many of them were upset/angry/outraged but afraid to say anything "officially" for fear of being returned to DP camps now full of the "ethnic Germans" that had replaced them.

Two notes, for the irony factor -  none of the second-round deportees were tattooed, and we (The Allies) had dismantled and shipped back home the data-storage machines that used to keep tabs on not only how many went into the camps and "left" but specifically who that was, so the second-round folks "disappeared".  Figuring out who "we" did that to is thus next to impossible.

When I got older I was amazed to realize that the victims of The Holocaust were not, for the most part, celebrating what was happening to folks who might have been among those supporting/agreeing with the Final Solution.  The resiliancy of the human soul is truely awesome.

Fistful -

Agreed that some of the 500,000 deaths were not directly attibutable to the enforced relocation.  Allow me to ask you your thoughts on deaths of the losing side in general, be it European (pick your century), Asian, Australian, African (northern, Saharan, or sub-Saharan), or American (both above and below the Rio Grande).  [Sorry, it's a very sore point.]

stay safe.

[Perd Hapley]

Fistful -

Agreed that some of the 500,000 deaths were not directly attibutable to the enforced relocation.  Allow me to ask you your thoughts on deaths of the losing side in general, be it European (pick your century), Asian, Australian, African (northern, Saharan, or sub-Saharan), or American (both above and below the Rio Grande).  [Sorry, it's a very sore point.]

stay safe.

Such waste of human life is a tragedy. What I have read about Europe's immediate post-war years is that it was a very dark and tragic episode, with very little in the way of food, paying employment or anything else of value. Not an existence I would wish on anyone, any more than I would want them to be rounded up, "concentrated," or killed.

Wait, I just read that last sentence. I guess being destitute is better than being destitute and being imprisoned, deported or killed. The point is, they were desperate times. Things were bleak all around.

[230RN]

Relevant:

My sig line from another board...

This says it all: "Disarmed people are neither free nor safe - they become the criminals' prey and the tyrants' playthings." http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#chart

If I'm not mistaken, the President has the authority by Executive Orders already in place, to relocate groups of citizens of the US.

[TommyGunn]

...If I'm not mistaken, the President has the authority by Executive Orders already in place, to relocate groups of citizens of the US.  ....

No, he doesn't. Not under the Constitution.  FDR did this via EO during WW2 but it is not going to happen today.

[Nick1911]

No, he doesn't. Not under the Constitution.  FDR did this via EO during WW2 but it is not going to happen today.

And, why could this not happen in the future?

[vaskidmark]

And, why could this not happen in the future?

Because the Supreme Court has sdaid it's unconstitutional and we all know that especially Pres. Obama has such great respect for the Constitution, having professored it at a law school, that he would never-ever do anything unconstitutional, tha's why.

And besides, this http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/parameters/Articles/1992/1992%20dunlap.pdf was just some guy blue-skying and there is no relevance to anything that actually happened since he wrote it, that's why!

stay safe.

[HankB]

And, why could this not happen in the future?

It could happen, but it might not go as smoothing as it did in the 1940s. Knowing what happened in the past, future groups of potential internees might not acquiesce to forced relocation and detention as peacefully as did ethnic Japanese during WWII.

There might be some dissent in the ranks of those tasked with rounding up people for internment, too; things could spiral out of control very quickly.

[Angel Eyes]

Knowing what happened in the past, future groups of potential internees might not acquiesce to forced relocation and detention as peacefully as did ethnic Japanese during WWII.

And it wasn't just Japanese who were put in camps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_internment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_internment

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

and some chinese     you know  they all look alike

[roo_ster]

And it wasn't just Japanese who were put in camps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_internment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_internment

Ayup.

But, being so gauche as to mention Italian & German internment ruins the "Racist Japanese Internment" line.  Maybe FDR & Co were not necessarily racists, but American fascists/socialists in the same vein as Woodrow Wilson.

Then, there is also the question of why no internment in Hawaii?  (Leading question...)

[MechAg94]

Ayup.

But, being so gauche as to mention Italian & German internment ruins the "Racist Japanese Internment" line.  Maybe FDR & Co were not necessarily racists, but American fascists/socialists in the same vein as Woodrow Wilson.

Then, there is also the question of why no internment in Hawaii?  (Leading question...)

Hey, didn't you see the movie Midway?? 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Ayup.

But, being so gauche as to mention Italian & German internment ruins the "Racist Japanese Internment" line.  Maybe FDR & Co were not necessarily racists, but American fascists/socialists in the same vein as Woodrow Wilson.

Then, there is also the question of why no internment in Hawaii?  (Leading question...)

there were too many   more japanese in hawaii that in the rest of the us  like 1/3 of the pop.


ask why so few germans were interned     less than 15 k

they really shoulda watched the irish in the usa

[230RN]

No, he doesn't. Not under the Constitution.  FDR did this via EO during WW2 but it is not going to happen today.

I bow to TommyGunn's observation and amend my statement as follows:

"If I'm not mistaken, the President has presumed the authority by Executive Orders already in place, to relocate groups of citizens of the US."

[Scout26]

I just read a book a a month or so ago about the final days of East Prussia in WWII, Battleground Prussia  While it mainly covers the fighting it also goes into the mass exodus of the Germans from Prussia and eastern Germany to Western Germany.

Given what had happened in the Soviet Union, it's not hard to see that the Russians were hell bent on revenge....

[TommyGunn]

And, why could this not happen in the future?

THIS
\/ \/ \/  \/ \/ \/ \/ \/

It could happen, but it might not go as smoothing as it did in the 1940s. Knowing what happened in the past, future groups of potential internees might not acquiesce to forced relocation and detention as peacefully as did ethnic Japanese during WWII.

There might be some dissent in the ranks of those tasked with rounding up people for internment, too; things could spiral out of control very quickly.

[TommyGunn]

I bow to TommyGunn's observation and amend my statement as follows:

"If I'm not mistaken, the President has presumed the authority by Executive Orders already in place, to relocate groups of citizens of the US."

I've been on the internet for about 9 years.  That's a FIRST!!!!!!