Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: MillCreek on November 30, 2016, 11:49:18 AM
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http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/cuba-health/508859/
Noting the comments on the Cuban medical system in the Castro thread, this article seems timely.
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http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/cuba-health/508859/
Noting the comments on the Cuban medical system in the Castro thread, this article seems timely.
I've not read the article yet (will later) but I think Cuba has a remarkably good medical system for such a destitute shithole of a country. That's a pretty big qualifier. There's still probably some lessons we could learn from them on things like efficiency.
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I've not read the article yet (will later) but I think Cuba has a remarkably good medical system for such a destitute shithole of a country. That's a pretty big qualifier. There's still probably some lessons we could learn from them on things like efficiency.
Well, I'd suspect Cuban death panels dispense with euphemism, along with costly patients.
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Well, I'd suspect Cuban death panels dispense with euphemism, along with costly patients.
If more empathetic countries such as England already do, I can't imagine how efficiently you're cast off in the Cuban system...
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The system requires around twice as many primary-care doctors per capita as we have in the U.S., made possible because the country also invested in medical education, creating in 1998 what U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon called “the world’s most advanced medical school.” Cuba has become known for training not just domestic doctors, but those from around the world—and sending its doctors to help other, wealthier countries when needed. During the recent Ebola crisis in Sierra Leone, more than 100 Cuban doctors and nurses were at the front lines.
From elsewhere I've heard that Cuba actually has a shortage of doctors, as many have left. I've also heard that healthcare for the ruling class is pretty good while healthcare for the peons is bad.
I wonder what the real truth is .... though it being a dictatorship, I won't be holding my breath to find out.
The article said govt. provided healthcare was in the Cuban Constitution. That sounds good. The former USSR had a Constitution as well, and it too sounded good. It just wasn't adhered to, and thus we had the gulags, purges .....so forth.
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. . . The article said govt. provided healthcare was in the Cuban Constitution. That sounds good. The former USSR had a Constitution as well, and it too sounded good. It just wasn't adhered to, and thus we had the gulags, purges .....so forth.
I remember reading that Soviet citizens could be arrested and locked up for "unwarranted exercise of constitutional rights" . . .
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It is a communist country. Everything is rationed (for those outside the ruling class).
I skimmed through that article and I was wondering if someone would come around with the "..rest of the story" to fill in what was left unsaid. Also, I am not sure I trust cost of care and average lifespan numbers from a country like Cuba without independent verification.
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It is a communist country. Everything is rationed (for those outside the ruling class).
I skimmed through that article and I was wondering if someone would come around with the "..rest of the story" to fill in what was left unsaid. Also, I am not sure I trust cost of care and average lifespan numbers from a country like Cuba without independent verification.
Whatever you say about the people of Cuba, at least the non-elites are saved from the horrors of obesity that the poor people in this country face.
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Whatever you say about the people of Cuba, at least the non-elites are saved from the horrors of obesity that the poor people in this country face.
I think you just hit on the next liberal crusade. We have to raise minimum wage and tax fast food, twinkies, and ho-hos to fight obesity. =D
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I think you just hit on the next liberal crusade. We have to raise minimum wage and tax fast food, twinkies, and ho-hos to fight obesity. =D
Oh, they've been ginning this up already. Taxing or banning Big Gulps. Michelle Obama school lunches. Gallons of ink and pixels spilled over "food deserts." Pushing a "living wage." They are so there.
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The article said govt. provided healthcare was in the Cuban Constitution. That sounds good.
I am betting that you are being facetious, but just in case you aren't.
That is a stupid, idiotic, moronic, and abso-freaking-lutely horrible idea.
How does one enforce the right to healthcare? Is the government forcing people to become doctors and nurses? Well, this is Cuba, so probably yes.
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I am betting that you are being facetious, but just in case you aren't.
That is a stupid, idiotic, moronic, and abso-freaking-lutely horrible idea.
How does one enforce the right to healthcare? Is the government forcing people to become doctors and nurses? Well, this is Cuba, so probably yes.
"You! Can you read?"
"Si, señor."
"What does this say?"
"Eet says 'aspirin.' "
"Congratulations -- you are a doctor. Report to the clinic at 7:00 o'clock tomorrow morning."
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The problem with discussing it is that Cuba has been a propaganda whipping boy for so long that you can't have a fact based discussion about it.
Discussing Cuban medicine in America must be something like discussing US foreign policy at a North Korean university. Inconvenient facts that show the enemy to be decent in some regards are not allowed.
Considering the economic sanctions that country has faced, its economy and delivery of health, housing, and education is miraculous. The elites clearly aren't milking their positions to anything like the degree it happens elsewhere in Latin America.
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Whatever you say about the people of Cuba, at least the non-elites are saved from the horrors of obesity that the poor people in this country face.
They do have good nutrition through the government food program. Malnourishment is lower than in many American inner cities, even among the poorest Cubans.
It's actually somewhat a model of working communism. The government has been providing food, shelter, medicine and education publicly for 50 years or so and it's nowhere near collapse. In fact it has resisted the best efforts of the most powerful country on earth during that time.
Cuba is an example of what poor and less developed countries could be like if they actually prioritised basic necessities over flash goods. Sure, maybe even a doctor is too poor to afford a Rolex, but the whole country eats and lives well together. There's low crime, high literacy, and good health and they've clearly chosen those outcomes as a people over cash wealth.
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I am betting that you are being facetious, but just in case you aren't.
That is a stupid, idiotic, moronic, and abso-freaking-lutely horrible idea.
How does one enforce the right to healthcare? Is the government forcing people to become doctors and nurses? Well, this is Cuba, so probably yes.
I am absolutely against govt enforced healthcare like Cuba and Russia. Sometimes things can be made to look really nice on paper but are inefficient to even horrible in practice. Socialism "sounds good" when you read Marx....but tell me again how many died in Soviet purges?
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The problem with discussing it is that Cuba has been a propaganda whipping boy for so long that you can't have a fact based discussion about it.
Discussing Cuban medicine in America must be something like discussing US foreign policy at a North Korean university. Inconvenient facts that show the enemy to be decent in some regards are not allowed.
Considering the economic sanctions that country has faced, its economy and delivery of health, housing, and education is miraculous. The elites clearly aren't milking their positions to anything like the degree it happens elsewhere in Latin America.
You seem to ignore the fact that communist regimes like Cuba have played the propaganda game more than anyone else over the years. Whatever you think about American propaganda, we are amateurs.
I also think it is funny that you bring up anti-Cuban propaganda when the OP link is a puff piece on Cuban health care.
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You seem to ignore the fact that communist regimes like Cuba have played the propaganda game more than anyone else over the years. Whatever you think about American propaganda, we are amateurs.
I also think it is funny that you bring up anti-Cuban propaganda when the OP link is a puff piece on Cuban health care.
On what basis did you conclude it's a puff piece? Or that every available stay on Cuba is fake?
In fact it'd be great to see a link to any documentation on those claims. Certainly the WHO, numberous private health entities, and numerous private researchers think it's real.
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So, it's ok to be ruled by a bloodthirsty, murdering dictator as long as you have good Healthcare.
Got it.
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There's low crime, high literacy, and good health and they've clearly chosen those outcomes as a people over cash wealth.
And that's easy to do when you shoot anyone that chooses differently
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And that's easy to do when you shoot anyone that chooses differently
Again, hype much? Is there any evidence of this?
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Again, hype much? Is there any evidence of this?
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftesting.therealcuba.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F05%2Ffusilamiento1X.jpg&hash=e385ffb9a5b9d5b1519c758e3c5884d11b0f9faa)
Maybe they are just playing "revolutionary and dissident" and will go have a cool mojito afterwards.
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftesting.therealcuba.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F05%2Ffusilamiento1X.jpg&hash=e385ffb9a5b9d5b1519c758e3c5884d11b0f9faa)
Maybe they are just playing "revolutionary and dissident" and will go have a cool mojito afterwards.
Haha, man you can't be serious. Do you know anything about that photo, like its date, names of people in it, etc? Was the dead guy even an alleged dissident?
This is as silly as me posting photos of Abu Ghraib and saying "some freedom there - they shock your balls in america if you disagree."
This really just proves the point. The Kool Aid has been poured so many times on this in your school lunches that a rational, fact based evaluation of the faults and successes of the regime in Cuba is just impossible. Posting photos from a war in the 50's suffices as evidence of how the regime works.
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So, it's ok to be ruled by a bloodthirsty, murdering dictator as long as you have good Healthcare.
Got it.
Excluding police from the Batista government (most of whom actually were torturers and war criminals), how many people have been executed in Cuba?
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Cuba is an example of what poor and less developed countries could be like if they actually prioritised basic necessities over flash goods. Sure, maybe even a doctor is too poor to afford a Rolex, but the whole country eats and lives well together. There's low crime, high literacy, and good health and they've clearly chosen those outcomes as a people over cash wealth.
Yep, Cuba is just a modern utopia. That's why there are more Cubans in Miami than there are in Cuba, and why Cubans are willing to risk being shot or drowning to get out of the place.
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Yep, Cuba is just a modern utopia. That's why there are more Cubans in Miami than there are in Cuba, and why Cubans are willing to risk being shot or drowning to get out of the place.
And this is just as silly. Who ever argued Cuba is as well off as the US? Who in the region doesn't try to come to the US?
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Considering the economic sanctions that country has faced, its economy and delivery of health, housing, and education is miraculous. The elites clearly aren't milking their positions to anything like the degree it happens elsewhere in Latin America.
R u serious?
http://nypost.com/2015/05/10/inside-fidel-castros-luxurious-life-on-his-secret-island-getaway/
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R u serious?
http://nypost.com/2015/05/10/inside-fidel-castros-luxurious-life-on-his-secret-island-getaway/
This is a further example. What passes as fact and evidence is just a joke - claims by a dissident bodyguard (does anyone have some proof he was) in a news article are good enough.
Did some quick google fact checking of that article.
Here's the place supposedly a private villa for Castro: https://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/lighthouse/photos/Caribbean/CayoPiedras/CayoPiedras.htm
It's also listed on Tripadvisor as an underwater park.
Seems a bit odd for a dictators secret lair, no?
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I have to agree with De Selby, at least in regards to the information we get from the MSM. We complain all day and night that the MSM doesn't tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but the moment we hear the MSM say something we agree with, then we are like, "Yeah! I told you so."
The Cuban medical system probably works well enough for Cuba and Cubans, but it isn't something we should emulate here in the US.
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The Cuban medical system probably works well enough for Cuba and Cubans, but it isn't something we should emulate here in the US.
The Cuban medical system (for elites) clearly works better than the same (for elites) in Venezuela.* I'm not really sure what other facts can be garnered from a country ruled by a dictator who controls access to information.
*I can say this affirmatively because the Venezuelan dictator, who ALSO didn't get the proper death he deserved, went to Cuba when he was trying to save his own pitiful life.
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I have to agree with De Selby, at least in regards to the information we get from the MSM. We complain all day and night that the MSM doesn't tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but the moment we hear the MSM say something we agree with, then we are like, "Yeah! I told you so."
The Cuban medical system probably works well enough for Cuba and Cubans, but it isn't something we should emulate here in the US.
The type of low level care mentioned in the article would probably work well for most Americans also until it doesn't and they need something more. Nurses could do a lot of the stuff they are talking about. There are likely Cubans who need more care than that, but do they have it if they need it?
As far as better nutrition, do Cubans have a choice in the matter? Can they go to a grocery store and buy whatever they want in whatever quantity they can afford? It seems to me that good nutrition that is enforced by the govt and by poverty isn't the same thing. We at least have a choice.
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https://gborjas.org/2016/11/26/vignettes-from-a-communist-utopia/
http://www.city-journal.org/html/last-communist-city-13649.html
A couple of articles for your perusal.
every time I hear excuses about Cuban poverty, they are associated with this complaint-
"well, what do you expect, the US had an embargo on them for 50 years".
What about the rest of the world that did not have an embargo on them? Could they not trade with them? or is the US capitalist success story so immense that every other country in the world fades into insignificance by comparison?
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftesting.therealcuba.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F05%2Ffusilamiento1X.jpg&hash=e385ffb9a5b9d5b1519c758e3c5884d11b0f9faa)
Maybe they are just playing "revolutionary and dissident" and will go have a cool mojito afterwards.
Haha, man you can't be serious. Do you know anything about that photo, like its date, names of people in it, etc? Was the dead guy even an alleged dissident?
This is as silly as me posting photos of Abu Ghraib and saying "some freedom there - they shock your balls in america if you disagree."
This really just proves the point. The Kool Aid has been poured so many times on this in your school lunches that a rational, fact based evaluation of the faults and successes of the regime in Cuba is just impossible. Posting photos from a war in the 50's suffices as evidence of how the regime works.
They're obviously playing "cops and robbers!!!''
I don't think anyone knows exactly how many people Castro has had "disappeared" over his years as El Jefe de Cuba.
What I'd invite you to do is to visit Miami Florida and visit some of those Cuban imigres and ask them .... especially if you can find some of the older ones.
But I should warn you to be VERY VERY CAREFUL what you say about Castro and the regime. They may not like your attitude toward Castro .... and some of them may not be really shy about telling you how they feel .... or showing you how they feel .....
(let's all play nice now).
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Haha, man you can't be serious. Do you know anything about that photo, like its date, names of people in it, etc? Was the dead guy even an alleged dissident?
This is as silly as me posting photos of Abu Ghraib and saying "some freedom there - they shock your balls in america if you disagree."
This really just proves the point. The Kool Aid has been poured so many times on this in your school lunches that a rational, fact based evaluation of the faults and successes of the regime in Cuba is just impossible. Posting photos from a war in the 50's suffices as evidence of how the regime works.
This argument is so inane and stupid as to approach insulting. I posted a 50 year old photo from the revolution because I didn't think someone with your education would actually be as ignorant as you apparently are. I also don't need to back up common knowledge with cited sources. I live in FL, and am friends and coworkers with both first and second generation Cubans. People who still talk with their family on the island, and who can and do give first hand accounts of people jailed, executed , or just dissapeared by the Cuban government. It still happens to this day.
I have also personally been to Cuba, as well as a majority of the other islands in the Caribbean. So I speak of conditions in those countries from first hand knowledge, actually spending time there rebuilding them, and talking with the people that live there. Entertainingly, I was also in Moscow in 1993 so I got to talk to THOSE communists as well about what life under communism actually is, rather then what it was advertised as.
I actually really hope this is part of some ongoing trolling campaign to remind us that social programs do sometimes work and hone your verbal arguing skills. If you are actually this mind numbingly ignorant of the history and outcomes of social systems in the 20th century, I fear all hope maybe lost for you.
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They're obviously playing "cops and robbers!!!''
I don't think anyone knows exactly how many people Castro has had "disappeared" over his years as El Jefe de Cuba.
What I'd invite you to do is to visit Miami Florida and visit some of those Cuban imigres and ask them .... especially if you can find some of the older ones.
But I should warn you to be VERY VERY CAREFUL what you say about Castro and the regime. They may not like your attitude toward Castro .... and some of them may not be really shy about telling you how they feel .... or showing you how they feel .....
(let's all play nice now).
I read something on this recently, somebody had complied numbers of the murdered- can't remember the numbers save one- relative to the US population, it was the equivalent of about 680,000.
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One of the things that is to me, as a "maker", especially horrifying, is the gangs of state thugs who do random searches to find "unauthorized" stuff, like a chicken, or extra eggs, or anything else that someone through their efforts acquired. That, and the "Maximum" wage, are just hellish.
We should have invaded Cuba in 1960, shot all the commies, and established a Republic.
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I've seen the low infant mortality claim in every discussion about Cuba. I am not inclined to put faith in it. I have intimate knowledge of how statistics are made in the ComBloc. A former member of my family was a programmer working on a reporting package for a low-level Soviet government agency. When the numbers didn't look right, the project team was ordered to hard-code the numbers that would be acceptable to the higher-level bureaucrats.
I would also put it out there that when Castro himself needed top shelf medical care, he invited doctors from Israel, rather than rely on the Cuban ones.
Excluding police from the Batista government (most of whom actually were torturers and war criminals), how many people have been executed in Cuba?
How many is an acceptable number?
Would you include people who drowned trying to escape Cuba as victims of the regime, or do you think those were just elaborate suicides?
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This argument is so inane and stupid as to approach insulting. I posted a 50 year old photo from the revolution because I didn't think someone with your education would actually be as ignorant as you apparently are. I also don't need to back up common knowledge with cited sources. I live in FL, and am friends and coworkers with both first and second generation Cubans. People who still talk with their family on the island, and who can and do give first hand accounts of people jailed, executed , or just dissapeared by the Cuban government. It still happens to this day.
I have also personally been to Cuba, as well as a majority of the other islands in the Caribbean. So I speak of conditions in those countries from first hand knowledge, actually spending time there rebuilding them, and talking with the people that live there. Entertainingly, I was also in Moscow in 1993 so I got to talk to THOSE communists as well about what life under communism actually is, rather then what it was advertised as.
I actually really hope this is part of some ongoing trolling campaign to remind us that social programs do sometimes work and hone your verbal arguing skills. If you are actually this mind numbingly ignorant of the history and outcomes of social systems in the 20th century, I fear all hope maybe lost for you.
To illustrate the point: do you even know if the shooter in the photo is a revolutionary??? How do you know that isn't a revolutionary lying on the ground?
My point is that for all this knowledge of Cuba, surely there must be a statistic or measure you can throw out there to compare. ranting or accusing me of trolling because I pointed out that you aren't actually making a fact based claim (like the article) really just reinforces that the years of propaganda have made this an emotional issue (commies are evil!) and not a factual one (like the article in the OP, which cites some health outcomes of their system).
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https://gborjas.org/2016/11/26/vignettes-from-a-communist-utopia/
http://www.city-journal.org/html/last-communist-city-13649.html
A couple of articles for your perusal.
every time I hear excuses about Cuban poverty, they are associated with this complaint-
"well, what do you expect, the US had an embargo on them for 50 years".
What about the rest of the world that did not have an embargo on them? Could they not trade with them? or is the US capitalist success story so immense that every other country in the world fades into insignificance by comparison?
The rest of the world not subject to US rules??? Do you understand ow the embargo worked?
I like how vignettes become evidence when we don't like the target.
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I've seen the low infant mortality claim in every discussion about Cuba. I am not inclined to put faith in it.
The other problem is that most other countries use a different measure for infant mortality.
U.S.: the baby takes one breath of air outside the womb and then dies- infant mortality.
Rest of the world: the baby dies because a microwave was dropped on it in the first month of life- stillborn.
So, I wonder why we seem to have a much higher infant mortality?
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No one did a Google image search?
Here is the first link I found: http://www.therealcuba.com/?page_id=55
The rest of the links from my search.
https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZiseUR8IcbnNfM762yK2zEPP0Sd7ekjaitpCel1URfD9KowtUAoN4Yzo5YL1ky0JfKGxmyDrtO8pm_1WaBkINehb_1YssNY9B6F8I5RifT5QdgcOlVUX3CJ8GxPzos6kC7p3id7IeOF3TZgkhjMpf2P-5BTldWhb8TrzoFwBN4mL9QucwF5ODcak7Vme7pou-IUPJOO_1Rb4rqKK61gEBgv0oYgGh-fPYVUClmEyLlToUgzlcfTp1q8jvMXUqoHXs1b2QLF3oBlr2iV5D9E9xCYzjPLOrkruNWPkXkl7X2B9P5922S65V5F5LInDL13NdE4JegpuMHb8yQmFk9TqrFLtUKnvgHX6ri4rh8hgO_18I-hEELEJF0BZxSceb3JC4j7YCgg_14edOE3QgNCnsILHvHUax96TII2s4pIhfTRtDmO4JUzxEgHtxtM0SDIaLXGD-sEDwdF13Ne7poIj3YTi0Qqwjuybo6g7xs9oZCHXlVaD4GP0VhaNds_1YNrb7wBHMRbJWCdagvL6Blz2Mt1AF_1YyzLFp3cXd50GY6NHhVOCHPPGKFiuLozFzTkdzPXrJyXN9bcisyn2wJB8MHHfgB-hFOy22KFQGepSiqcUvQQdHrlnMDGu8LbVeTFcwrc8qTkBwOhKMliUP0ZsGYKPzvZ6TqnOoHimdYaFo-ic5869zqPNfg0Hs4FF1mxA5qvagitbUWAKt_11NP_17Fu4reRVKa9o4VOnWCfjD-V0tmDUBu8_1wL4keCm8UJK6eHpmkixBrlHm6_1Qr8M1xOKmL8JWsrGnDOXCXNoZlqOTB9BET9qBFldFS8BmB5XKNOi5FLjr5jdBH4Q4abNHvZUpLNa-r5FiWMs98Ajju1Ci3Js3C5cF25ZZOgUHwcNQCJGPS76fyhEZzeI0FRgZ22WyhRMBfk49DidSpVPWLF2X7LZtz09EXd8dyW5WYFptLtMMfofEJB67laZyaqUmw63rqE7V34TKVx0_1u2jJQOc3ILlRZ6dIUdWLuCH2M5NxLcKKRh5jHs5-44S2tiWhFsGV8PKw5LVbEyF1FOLkflDtrsQD5FTZBjfAHrG84zvRnxIHs7kv7HAh3mK95Lq87FrgkIx4--eOTnFI4WGkijcEiTU72saTtgp5ro2YKm_1PKNipPWSI2SwpvpWfYJu04XV4LfeNdmcxZajHI0nxTH1semabstu1pTWnHX2SrtSOxdLo_1nDiJ1QQQ6JCUNfquyLGafS9kzP_1kti2x-XiT8VEPnxcPlRjJX9ZEF_10tkTx1y8w42I1eiQ4x2oP_1IbauiK4Oh0ctrkyPg_1OF5VKk7LhogFNLfh_1gZ4-d--sHRZGksXhb1uNnlzghZNHcPmW4JlZ5_1YB8hNxb2uXxUk2YR46keO_1Bw8xZcI04LVjwV-NPYy6mHvrGELN_1pId0UbNsG_1n0SPZKMlXZJuEB1dkLUvrM3SWT1VLiGIkN3PumY3D01zyM297-4nuYH7TzkuHjP73cryqsJYP_19W0ifIByIHGi7bFRFLItLKDcPSBHZ9OKzNgI5ARRLUtXS1Km27pHilXVAzD04gVz8b-YJEKXXzcJkvfGU7VVgjxGjoEJos7z0vGubZOzXy4MLgR5JF-yGbGeLYpysMpL45xcXwYLm-rvFzTxbfP-N4oi5B6aK7b_1cQHSm_1lU6qQ1MHdmpqAc8B5WXPaRUgWV5vMcqu9yk5RpsfyskSlKtlT1zbI_1jKy8jOo6zKIOlPlnuNlqD
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The rest of the world not subject to US rules??? Do you understand ow the embargo worked?
I like how vignettes become evidence when we don't like the target.
DeSelby- talking with you is like arguing with a conspiracy fanatic, where no matter what is presented, it is faked or lies. So far, you have managed to dismiss the MSM comments on Cuba, amazing as they are ,coming from a leftist press corps that has largely kissed Castros ass for fifty years, dismissed personal accounts of refugees who suffered, and dismissed accounts of well respected reporters who have actually been there. Just out of curiosity, is there ANY evidence of Castro's murderous activities that you would accept?
Your statement- "I like how vignettes become evidence when we don't like the target." can be perfectly inverted to "no evidence is considered when we love the target". yeah , sure, you can chip at this account or that one, etc, but there are THOUSANDS of accounts from people with direct living experience of this piece of commie filth and the atrocities he had forced on the Cuban people- do you assert they are ALL lying?
About the embargo- it was on US Cuba trade. I have not seen that it was binding on third parties- certainly the USSR poured a ton of direct money there. And many countries had tourism to Cuba, etc. I think the embargo is an excuse for the utter failure of a deranged communist police state.
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The other problem is that most other countries use a different measure for infant mortality.
U.S.: the baby takes one breath of air outside the womb and then dies- infant mortality.
Rest of the world: the baby dies because a microwave was dropped on it in the first month of life- stillborn.
So, I wonder why we seem to have a much higher infant mortality?
Also, consider the ages and health of the mothers.
I doubt Cuba has a lot of options for fertility treatments and high risk pregnancies. First world countries have woman who get pregnant and carry to term that would have never had even come close to doing so naturally. Woman in first world countries often wait until they are older to have children which increases risk of health problems for the baby, some of which would not show up or be a problem until the child was significantly older.
With 50 years to weed out the gene pool and significantly less high risk pregnancies even happening, I would not be surprised that the population was just healthier.
That doesn't mean they have better health care. It just means they don't need as much health care.
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No one did a Google image search?
Here is the first link I found: http://www.therealcuba.com/?page_id=55
The rest of the links from my search.
https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZiseUR8IcbnNfM762yK2zEPP0Sd7ekjaitpCel1URfD9KowtUAoN4Yzo5YL1ky0JfKGxmyDrtO8pm_1WaBkINehb_1YssNY9B6F8I5RifT5QdgcOlVUX3CJ8GxPzos6kC7p3id7IeOF3TZgkhjMpf2P-5BTldWhb8TrzoFwBN4mL9QucwF5ODcak7Vme7pou-IUPJOO_1Rb4rqKK61gEBgv0oYgGh-fPYVUClmEyLlToUgzlcfTp1q8jvMXUqoHXs1b2QLF3oBlr2iV5D9E9xCYzjPLOrkruNWPkXkl7X2B9P5922S65V5F5LInDL13NdE4JegpuMHb8yQmFk9TqrFLtUKnvgHX6ri4rh8hgO_18I-hEELEJF0BZxSceb3JC4j7YCgg_14edOE3QgNCnsILHvHUax96TII2s4pIhfTRtDmO4JUzxEgHtxtM0SDIaLXGD-sEDwdF13Ne7poIj3YTi0Qqwjuybo6g7xs9oZCHXlVaD4GP0VhaNds_1YNrb7wBHMRbJWCdagvL6Blz2Mt1AF_1YyzLFp3cXd50GY6NHhVOCHPPGKFiuLozFzTkdzPXrJyXN9bcisyn2wJB8MHHfgB-hFOy22KFQGepSiqcUvQQdHrlnMDGu8LbVeTFcwrc8qTkBwOhKMliUP0ZsGYKPzvZ6TqnOoHimdYaFo-ic5869zqPNfg0Hs4FF1mxA5qvagitbUWAKt_11NP_17Fu4reRVKa9o4VOnWCfjD-V0tmDUBu8_1wL4keCm8UJK6eHpmkixBrlHm6_1Qr8M1xOKmL8JWsrGnDOXCXNoZlqOTB9BET9qBFldFS8BmB5XKNOi5FLjr5jdBH4Q4abNHvZUpLNa-r5FiWMs98Ajju1Ci3Js3C5cF25ZZOgUHwcNQCJGPS76fyhEZzeI0FRgZ22WyhRMBfk49DidSpVPWLF2X7LZtz09EXd8dyW5WYFptLtMMfofEJB67laZyaqUmw63rqE7V34TKVx0_1u2jJQOc3ILlRZ6dIUdWLuCH2M5NxLcKKRh5jHs5-44S2tiWhFsGV8PKw5LVbEyF1FOLkflDtrsQD5FTZBjfAHrG84zvRnxIHs7kv7HAh3mK95Lq87FrgkIx4--eOTnFI4WGkijcEiTU72saTtgp5ro2YKm_1PKNipPWSI2SwpvpWfYJu04XV4LfeNdmcxZajHI0nxTH1semabstu1pTWnHX2SrtSOxdLo_1nDiJ1QQQ6JCUNfquyLGafS9kzP_1kti2x-XiT8VEPnxcPlRjJX9ZEF_10tkTx1y8w42I1eiQ4x2oP_1IbauiK4Oh0ctrkyPg_1OF5VKk7LhogFNLfh_1gZ4-d--sHRZGksXhb1uNnlzghZNHcPmW4JlZ5_1YB8hNxb2uXxUk2YR46keO_1Bw8xZcI04LVjwV-NPYy6mHvrGELN_1pId0UbNsG_1n0SPZKMlXZJuEB1dkLUvrM3SWT1VLiGIkN3PumY3D01zyM297-4nuYH7TzkuHjP73cryqsJYP_19W0ifIByIHGi7bFRFLItLKDcPSBHZ9OKzNgI5ARRLUtXS1Km27pHilXVAzD04gVz8b-YJEKXXzcJkvfGU7VVgjxGjoEJos7z0vGubZOzXy4MLgR5JF-yGbGeLYpysMpL45xcXwYLm-rvFzTxbfP-N4oi5B6aK7b_1cQHSm_1lU6qQ1MHdmpqAc8B5WXPaRUgWV5vMcqu9yk5RpsfyskSlKtlT1zbI_1jKy8jOo6zKIOlPlnuNlqD
That link is instructive as to what's wrong with the public discourse on Cuba.
The centrepiece of brutality claims at that link is about perhaps the most murderous figure In the entirety of Cuba's history. That police chief tortured and killed so many people to argue about him being shot with a trial is equivalent to arguing that Al Zarqawi was brutally murdered.
But you don't get that context there. It's all about the emotive hating of commies, not facts.
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That link is instructive as to what's wrong with the public discourse on Cuba.
The centrepiece of brutality claims at that link is about perhaps the most murderous figure In the entirety of Cuba's history. That police chief tortured and killed so many people to argue about him being shot with a trial is equivalent to arguing that Al Zarqawi was brutally murdered.
But you don't get that context there. It's all about the emotive hating of commies, not facts.
:facepalm:
Do you not think it is pretty rational to hate a political ideology with such a vast record of death, persecution and oppression to its name?
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Yeah, who could possibly hate those Communists, Guardians of Equality?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/drawings-gulag-danzig-baldaev-review
Do an image search, if you have the stomach for it.
I despise commies. Murderous torturing filth. Exactly like the National Socialist Workers Party except for name.
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And don't forget that some animals are more equal than others...
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/11/30/leftist-praise-fidel-castro-family-struggles-secure-million-dollar-fortune/
Forbes says Fidel was worth $900 million. They estimate that Raul is worth $100 million dollars.
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And don't forget that some animals are more equal than others...
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/11/30/leftist-praise-fidel-castro-family-struggles-secure-million-dollar-fortune/
Forbes says Fidel was worth $900 million. They estimate that Raul is worth $100 million dollars.
Yeah. They're counting much of the Cuban economy as his personal wealth. That piece has been much criticised for its lack of facts over the years.
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Yeah, who could possibly hate those Communists, Guardians of Equality?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/drawings-gulag-danzig-baldaev-review
Do an image search, if you have the stomach for it.
I despise commies. Murderous torturing filth. Exactly like the National Socialist Workers Party except for name.
Do you hate America when people post photos of lynchigs from the 60's?
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Do you hate America when people post photos of lynchigs from the 60's?
Equate illegal and scarce murder with State sanctioned mass murder. Are you really that stupid?
I'm done with this- you are either a moron, or a troll.
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To illustrate the point: do you even know if the shooter in the photo is a revolutionary??? How do you know that isn't a revolutionary lying on the ground?
Uhh.....I didn't pick that photo at random. It's a relatively famous photo of a Cpt being executed by Rene Cruz during the revolution. And it works because it's indicative of the way the Castro government has handled justice and punishment for 50 or so years. It's almost as if you don't actually know anything about Cuba, and are just arguing based on something you read once.........
I'm starting to realize that you have NO idea what you're talking about here. You have no knowledge or context of how Communism is actually practiced in the real world, and what happens when it's tried. Pull your head out of Wikipedia and your dumbass college texts and listen to your elders that have actually SEEN Communism in the real world, in multiple places, and under multiple governments.
The theory and practice of Communism is Evil. This is not an emotional argument, or random pushing of our feelz. This is considered opinion based on, for many of us on this board, first hand experience with the practice and first hand discussions and friendships with the people that lived it.
I'm trying to remain polite in adherence to the forum rules, but really: You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, you should stop now.
ETA:
That link is instructive as to what's wrong with the public discourse on Cuba.
Actually this link is instructive as to what's wrong with the discourse.
Naive folks making excuses for evil men so they can try and push an agenda.
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Sorry dogmush, but if you take a second and look at how emotion driven that screed is, you will get my point.
Your hatred of communism does not equate to a factual analysis of Cuban government or healthcare. You don't need to trust that I know anything about Cuba to see that.
You're having a hard time not flipping out because I'm saying (based on figures cited in the OP) that Cuba isn't terrible at everything. That's an emotive, propaganda driven view which in my long experience with the Miami Cuban community is exactly what you'll get if that's what you choose to buy over a fact-based approach to the question.
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Do you hate America when people post photos of lynchi(n)gs from the 60's?
No, especially not if it's in context. Do you think we approve of lynchigs ----- er, lynchings?
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No, especially not if it's in context. Do you think we approve of lynchigs ----- er, lynchings?
That's the point. Screaming emotive things doesn't prove anything
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That's the point. Screaming emotive things doesn't prove anything
No....the point is people here are generally pretty disgusted at the thought of lynchings (an emotional reaction, you will note) and find the violent oppression Castro practiced in Cuba equally if not more abhorent.
There are times in life when such reactions are a good thing.
One does not praise Hitler for being kind to his dog Blondi because against the horror he perpetrated against millions such kindness has no merit. Any praise directed toward Mussolini for making the trains run on time is either ironic or misinformed, since IL Duce did not in fact alter any train schedulings.
Castro was a murderer, a thief, a dictator , a thug, and ought to be remembered solely in that context.
As for "screaming emotive things," I might suggest you worry more about whether they're true, since being "emotive" does not preclude them from being true. You dismiss much that has been presented here far too easily.
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Sorry dogmush, but if you take a second and look at how emotion driven that screed is, you will get my point.
Your hatred of communism does not equate to a factual analysis of Cuban government or healthcare. You don't need to trust that I know anything about Cuba to see that.
You're having a hard time not flipping out because I'm saying (based on figures cited in the OP) that Cuba isn't terrible at everything. That's an emotive, propaganda driven view which in my long experience with the Miami Cuban community is exactly what you'll get if that's what you choose to buy over a fact-based approach to the question.
You're confused.
I'm not flipping out, I'm laughing at your baseless self assurance. I didn't mention either way how I felt about your statement. If you'd care to read what I wrote, I pointed out that it's pretty easy to get a community to choose equal poverty (your assertion) if you kill anyone that wants wealth (or even the chance to earn wealth). You then questioned weather the Castro government really killed anyone (or very many) and asked for evidence of killings. Which I provided. Then you wanted to start talking about context of shooting someone in the back of the head. So I provided my context for my knowledge that Communism is bad.
I haven't actually commented on whether I believe the Cuban .gov propaganda on their healthcare, because it doesn't really matter. Castro could have made the survivors immortal, and it wouldn't excuse the murder and subjugation that it took to get to today's Cuba.
I know that sometimes tone is lost in internet postings, but I assure you I am neither flipping out, nor posting screeds. I'm typing, on my breaks from work, in the same half indulgent, half bemused tone I use on every other Millennial that thinks their vast internet reading of stuff that I lived while they were in grade school makes them experts on it. (If, on the off chance I am misremembering your generation, I apologize. I remember when you self identified as student, and your postings have that same tone of lots of reading without experiencing it.) I'm also playing the "millennial song" on Facebook. ;)
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:facepalm:
Do you not think it is pretty rational to hate a political ideology with such a vast record of death, persecution and oppression to its name?
Hell, I bet he gets aroused fantasizing about other great leaders like Mao, Pol Pot, and Stalin.
He probably has framed Che Guevara posters as well.
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Folks, DS is doing us a service in a back-handed sort of way. **So pay attention to what DS is writing and what what it implies.**
1. DS is telling us--repeatedly and whilst using arguments from many different directions--that mass-murder of opponents in pursuit of lefty/progressive objectives is defensible and/or excusable(a).
2. We--here in the USA--can expect to be dealt with as Che and Castro dealt with their opponents in Cuba, if ever the progressives/leftists gain such power.
3. To be explicit: They (lefties/progressives) hate us and are willing to murder us to further their cause. That is the inescapable conclusion one reaches when observing lefties defend left-wing murder regimes past and present for roughly a century.
There are follow-on implications for how the rest of us ought to react, how the pressures will shape that reaction (despite what anyone _wants_ to occur), and the long-term viability of living side-by-side with folk who would liquidate you to further their eschatological belief system.
(a) I went to school with the kids of middle-class folks who fled Castro and his mass-murderers. Those folks witnessed it and lost friends and family. I seriously doubt it was all a mass-delusion.
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I hope there will be adequate medical care in the FEMA re-education camps.
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Sorry dogmush, but if you take a second and look at how emotion driven that screed is, you will get my point.
Your hatred of communism does not equate to a factual analysis of Cuban government or healthcare. You don't need to trust that I know anything about Cuba to see that.
You're having a hard time not flipping out because I'm saying (based on figures cited in the OP) that Cuba isn't terrible at everything. That's an emotive, propaganda driven view which in my long experience with the Miami Cuban community is exactly what you'll get if that's what you choose to buy over a fact-based approach to the question.
"Not terrible" is far from good or any level of care that we would find tolerable. So I really don't see what point you are trying to make at all in this thread except trolling.
Thumbs up to roo_ster and dogmush. Great posts.
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Folks, DS is doing us a service in a back-handed sort of way. **So pay attention to what DS is writing and what what it implies.**
1. DS is telling us--repeatedly and whilst using arguments from many different directions--that mass-murder of opponents in pursuit of lefty/progressive objectives is defensible and/or excusable(a).
2. We--here in the USA--can expect to be dealt with as Che and Castro dealt with their opponents in Cuba, if ever the progressives/leftists gain such power.
3. To be explicit: They (lefties/progressives) hate us and are willing to murder us to further their cause. That is the inescapable conclusion one reaches when observing lefties defend left-wing murder regimes past and present for roughly a century.
There are follow-on implications for how the rest of us ought to react, how the pressures will shape that reaction (despite what anyone _wants_ to occur), and the long-term viability of living side-by-side with folk who would liquidate you to further their eschatological belief system.
(a) I went to school with the kids of middle-class folks who fled Castro and his mass-murderers. Those folks witnessed it and lost friends and family. I seriously doubt it was all a mass-delusion.
What you've done there is impressive: it's exactly what the media did with Trump statements. That you've done it right after noticing it happened in the media with no hint of irony is very impressive.
De Selby says the Cuban government delivers some services well, explaining its longevity.
Therefore, De Selby supports mass murder.
See what's missing in that argument?
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I haven't actually commented on whether I believe the Cuban .gov propaganda on their healthcare, because it doesn't really matter. Castro could have made the survivors immortal, and it wouldn't excuse the murder and subjugation that it took to get to today's Cuba.
So you agree with me that you haven't cited any facts in this topic, and that the facts don't matter to you because you are emotionally opposed to Castro?
I don't see why you had to write so much when all you were doing was agreeing with me. Your position is not based on facts, it's based on how you feel.
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That's not even close to what I wrote.
Literacy: give it a chance.
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That's not even close to what I wrote.
Literacy: give it a chance.
You wrote that the statistics don't matter and never will. I'm not sure how much more a rejection of evidence based analysis there could be.
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Nope. I didn't write that.
Read the full sentence, carefully. You'll get there.
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We can barely believe anything our own government puts out and folks are going to believe stats from a third world communist government?
Oh wait, the UN also says... :rofl:
The communists looted and pillaged the country and created a peasant terror state that the peasants frequently try and escape from at great risk to their lives.
Oh, but they get adequate health care, mostly so they can continue to be productive slaves.
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We can barely believe anything our own government puts out and folks are going to believe stats from a third world communist government?
Oh wait, the UN also says... :rofl:
The communists looted and pillaged the country and created a peasant terror state that the peasants frequently try and escape from at great risk to their lives.
Oh, but they get adequate health care, mostly so they can continue to be productive slaves.
But it isn't terrible care so that means it is great and we should copy it.