Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: RoadKingLarry on September 22, 2014, 10:27:54 PM
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Looks like the next chapter has opened.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/23/world/middleeast/us-and-allies-hit-isis-targets-in-syria.html?_r=0&referrer= (http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/23/world/middleeast/us-and-allies-hit-isis-targets-in-syria.html?_r=0&referrer=)
Hopefully we're bombing the "right" goat pokers.
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I'm sure that it will all work out well just like everything else we have done in the Middle East =D
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Wait for the outcry when ISIS/ISIL starts hiding in populated areas of Syria and "innocent" women and children are killed.
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Wait for the outcry when ISIS/ISIL starts hiding in populated areas of Syria and "innocent" women and children are killed.
I was listening to BBC Radio this morning and reports are that isis is already moving in to residential areas.
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I was listening to BBC Radio this morning and reports are that isis is already moving in to residential areas.
Cockroaches will do that.
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Personally, I do not support this action.
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Is Syria not a sovereign nation? WTF
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Is Syria not a sovereign nation? WTF
Yeah, but populated by brown people. It doesn't really count.
Chris
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Air strikes are meh, Obama drone murders plenty of men women and children every day all over the globe anyway. This just expands that a bit and puts a PR spin on it.
I'm more worried about the "arming the opposition" thing. I remember how well that worked out when we have arms and training to our good buddy Osama Bin Laden.
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Is Syria not a sovereign nation? WTF
Let's see, a while back we were going to bomb syria.gov because they used gas on the rebels. Now we are bombing the rebels.
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I heard a talking head say that the Tomahawk is to be phased out by 2016 and the replacement system won't be in place until 2018, as we're burning through existing inventory. Can anyone confirm or have additional detail?
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Let's see, a while back we were going to bomb syria.gov because they used gas on the rebels. Now we are bombing the rebels.
But McCain is for it before he was against it after he was ok with arming them.
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But McCain is for it before he was against it after he was ok with arming them.
Just think of those as throwdown weapons. After all, if they weren't armed, it would be much harder to justify bombing them.
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Is Syria not a sovereign nation? WTF
Borders are a thing for the proles to be concerned about.
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Interesting dance. http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/23/world/meast/isis-airstrikes/
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Tell me again why one instance of bombing a sovereign nation is a declaration of war and another is a limited kinetic action that just ain't no thang.
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Tell me again why one instance of bombing a sovereign nation is a declaration of war and another is a limited kinetic action that just ain't no thang.
We aren't targeting Syrian government or military targets unless "known" to house ISIS/ISIL leadership/members.
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Tell me again what threat ISIS(L) poses to the USA? Sure, it would be nice to help protect Christians for once rather than ingrate Muslims who hate us, but I don't see "Fidei Defensor" as one of the roles assigned to any branch of the US gov't.
Truly, the last 40 years we have pursued a foreign policy in the Middle East that is inimical to the interests of America and Christians living in the ME.
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I wonder what the $/terrorist figure is right now? I figure it has to be over $1 Million.
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Tell me again what threat ISIS(L) poses to the USA? Sure, it would be nice to help protect Christians for once rather than ingrate Muslims who hate us, but I don't see "Fidei Defensor" as one of the roles assigned to any branch of the US gov't.
Truly, the last 40 years we have pursued a foreign policy in the Middle East that is inimical to the interests of America and Christians living in the ME.
Rather be bombing and killing them over there than trying to fight them here.
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Tell me again why one instance of bombing a sovereign nation is a declaration of war and another is a limited kinetic action that just ain't no thang.
It depends on what country does the bombing ;)
The USSA are speshul and can due no wrong :angel:
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Rather be bombing and killing them over there than trying to fight them here.
I suspect if we weren't killing them over there directly or by proxy, we wouldn't need to fight them over here.
Chris
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Tell me again what threat ISIS(L) poses to the USA? Sure, it would be nice to help protect Christians for once rather than ingrate Muslims who hate us, but I don't see "Fidei Defensor" as one of the roles assigned to any branch of the US gov't.
Truly, the last 40 years we have pursued a foreign policy in the Middle East that is inimical to the interests of America and Christians living in the ME.
There are two reporters that probably think ISIS is dangerous.
Oooops, that's wrong. They're dead, they can't consider anything.
ISIS has claimed that they will be flying the Islamic flag over the White House.
Maybe we should wait until they actually are DOING THAT before we whack them.
Not that I like Obama or have, or would, vote for him for so much as dog catcher, but it IS time he got off his derriere and did something. Shame is ISIS has had enough time to prepare that we're probably bombing empty buildings.
:facepalm:
Someday this country is going to HAVE TO face the reality that radical Islam is a grave danger to both us and the world.
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ISIS has claimed that they will be flying the Islamic flag over the White House.
Maybe we should wait until they actually are DOING THAT before we whack them.
Haven't they been doing that for six years already?
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Rather be bombing and killing them over there than trying to fight them here.
Um, how's about denying entry to the USA of anyone from the Middle East? And Muslims from the ME, especially? They have no right to come here and our gov't has the duty to protect the country from them. We need not a single one of them on our soil. Any co-religionists and countrymen not yet American citizens can be tossed out to return home. American citizens found to have supported or trained or fought with ISIS or any foreign power can follow them.
And let Assad turn them into chum.
There are two reporters that probably think ISIS is dangerous.
Oooops, that's wrong. They're dead, they can't consider anything.
ISIS has claimed that they will be flying the Islamic flag over the White House.
Maybe we should wait until they actually are DOING THAT before we whack them.
Not that I like Obama or have, or would, vote for him for so much as dog catcher, but it IS time he got off his derriere and did something. Shame is ISIS has had enough time to prepare that we're probably bombing empty buildings.
:facepalm:
Someday this country is going to HAVE TO face the reality that radical Islam is a grave danger to both us and the world.
Again, why do we let them & their sort inside the USA in the first place?
Also, a threat has to be credible. ISIS has yet to demonstrate any capability to project power beyond the Levant. Beheading journalists who blundered about in ISIS territory is not a sign that they can hit America.
Frankly, I don't care if most folk over there DIAF. The longer they hack at each other, the better.
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Except, ISIL has already declared war on America, and several of America's allies.
You declare war on America?
EAT FIRE FROM THE SKY. (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/09/fresh-us-air-strikes-hit-isil-syria-2014924135632679984.html)
70 more terrorist scumbags dead, God Bless the USA.
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Since it is 70, we probably are over $1MIL per terrorist.
On the radio yesterday, someone brought up the Iran/Iraq War. I believe we worked to keep that war going back in the day. Makes me think that was a much cheaper way to do this stuff.
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Except, ISIL has already declared war on America, and several of America's allies.
You declare war on America?
EAT FIRE FROM THE SKY. (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/09/fresh-us-air-strikes-hit-isil-syria-2014924135632679984.html)
70 more terrorist scumbags dead, God Bless the USA.
Sure, the ISIS folk deserve to die. I've no problem with them being killed. But who has time to kill all those who wish us ill? Can we not discriminate and thump only those who have demonstrated the capability to harm America?
If we get out of the way, locals can likely handle this. Stop our sanctions on Assad, especially. There is also Turkey and Israel, either of whom is capable of turning ISIS into bloody red smears. Heck, we have sold Jordan hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of FMS. Put it to use, you Hashemite! How's about some more hardware for the Kurds? Don;t we have thousands of useless-to-us MRAPs they can put to use? Maybe towing beau coup 120mm mortars.
Since it is 70, we probably are over $1MIL per terrorist.
On the radio yesterday, someone brought up the Iran/Iraq War. I believe we worked to keep that war going back in the day. Makes me think that was a much cheaper way to do this stuff.
Yes, this.
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Tell me again why one instance of bombing a sovereign nation is a declaration of war and another is a limited kinetic action that just ain't no thang.
Depends on whether it's an R or D* doing the bombing.
* especially one with a Nobel Peace Prize.
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If we get out of the way, locals can likely handle this. Stop our sanctions on Assad, especially.
Why stop totally justified sanctions on an evil butcher who is at war with Israel and is backing Hezbollah financially and materially, and is right now fighting the people who help the US fight ISIL?
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The trouble with the Middle East is that it's full of Middle Easterners =D
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So some of you are saying we should wait until we have another 9/11 type event on our soil before we act?
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So some of you are saying we should wait until we have another 9/11 type event on our soil before we act?
Can we invoke the Godwin rule for "9/11" ???
We will not have another 9/11 type event on our soil until our leaders decide that it is politically advantageous to have another 9/11 type event on our soil.
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No worries - France will go clean them out for us now:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/09/24/watchdog-algerian-militant-group-linked-to-isis-kills-french-hostage/
;)
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Can we invoke the Godwin rule for "9/11" ???
We will not have another 9/11 type event on our soil until our leaders decide that it is politically advantageous to have another 9/11 type event on our soil.
Are you seriously argument that the US government either caused, or deliberately allowed, 9/11 to happen?
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Why stop totally justified sanctions on an evil butcher who is at war with Israel and is backing Hezbollah financially and materially, and is right now fighting the people who help the US fight ISIL?
Because it is not in America's interest.
What was in America's interest was the status quo where Assad stayed in his Syrian & Lebanese sandbox and kept a lid on things in Syria. Which he likely would have managed by now if we had stayed the heck out of the Syrian mess. ISIS would be a footnote in history, one of several rebel groups crushed by Assad, rather than a disruptive force in the ME that threatened ME oil production. Oil which the US sees very little of and is even less significant due to the fracking oil boom in the USA.
If Israel has problems with Hezbollah and Assad, Israel is capable of dealing with them. If Israel is offended that Assad treats his people poorly, let Israel give them aid.
The majority of people in the world are ruled by evil butchers. It is not America's responsibility to liberate their victims. That has been tried over & over and found to be a fool's errand.
The trouble with the Middle East is that it's full of Middle Easterners =D
Basically.
So some of you are saying we should wait until we have another 9/11 type event on our soil before we act?
We ought not deploy against every group that hollers they hate America before they even have the capability of pulling off a 9/11. We'd end up turning the ME and much of Asia & Africa into depopulated wilderness.
Some groups, like Somali and Nigerian pirates, do rate killing out of hand before they can hit the USA due to their disruptive effect on commerce. But you will recall that we did NOTHING to the bases/villages these pirates operate out of. So, on the one hand we deploy against and bomb a group incapable of hitting the USA and that could be managed by locals, but we sit back and refuse to destroy the bases of pirates disrupting commerce that does effect us.
FTR, were we to experience a 9/11 magnitude attack every 20 years, that would average out to 200 people/year. That is less than half as many folk who are murdered in Chicago every year.
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Are you seriously argument that the US government either caused, or deliberately allowed, 9/11 to happen?
The deliberately allowed is pretty obvious, unless you presume that they really are that fokking incompetent :facepalm:
It's an prestigious line of work, with a long and glorious tradition.
We ought not deploy against every group that hollers they hate America before they even have the capability of pulling off a 9/11. We'd end up turning the ME and much of Asia & Africa into depopulated wilderness.
Yeah, there's some downsides to that approach ... =|
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So some of you are saying we should wait until we have another 9/11 type event on our soil before we act?
Yes.
9/11 was a hail mary attempt that got lucky. If we persist in using it as a reason to attack every group or nation who "might" be a threat, we'll never be out of war and we'll continue to provide justification to those very same groups to try to launch another 9/11. It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle.
Chris
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The majority of people in the world are ruled by evil butchers. It is not America's responsibility to liberate their victims. That has been tried over & over and found to be a fool's errand.
As a direct or indirect result of America fighting and winning the Cold War, more people are living today in semi-decent liberal democracies than ever before.
As a direct result of America's naval hegemony, violence and conflict in the world are at an all-time low (in terms of absolute numbers of dead).
ISIS would be a footnote in history
ISIL is a footnote in history, just one of several Jihadi groups about to be defeated by America, the FSA, the Kurds and the other victorious allies.
Allied fighters reject rumors of alliance with Jihadis, push on to victory. (http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/09/19/Syrian-rebel-commander-vows-to-fight-ISIS-militants.html)
Allied fighters expand assault against ISIL (http://www.aawsat.net/2014/09/article55336775)
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The deliberately allowed is pretty obvious, unless you presume that they really are that fokking incompetent :facepalm:
1. Intelligence services are nowhere near that accurate in their predictions as they'd love the taxpayers to believe.
2. Even if the CIA were as magically supercompetent as the TV shows have it, it'd still get caught with its pants down every now and then, because nothing is perfect.
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1. Intelligence services are nowhere near that accurate in their predictions as they'd love the taxpayers to believe.
Except they were but the predictions were ignored.
Also, the information from flight schools that Muslims were learning to fly (but not TO/land) airplanes.
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As a direct or indirect result of America fighting and winning the Cold War, more people are living today in semi-decent liberal democracies than ever before.
Containing the USSR and revolutionary marxism was in the interests of the USA.
As a direct result of America's naval hegemony, violence and conflict in the world are at an all-time low (in terms of absolute numbers of dead).
Partly due to the Pax Americana of the seas, yes. Also in America's interests.
Intervention in sectarian violence between groups--each one more unsavory than the last--not so much in America's interests. In that case, the bloody butcher who keeps the savages in line due to his superior savagery is preferred. Assad > ISIS, Mubarak > Muslim B-hood, and so forth. It takes a brute to rule brutes.
ISIL is a footnote in history, just one of several Jihadi groups about to be defeated by America, the FSA, the Kurds and the other victorious allies.
Maybe so. Can't say I'd shed a tear if ISIS became worm food.
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1. Assad was far more murderous than ISIS, and still is.
2. Mubarak sponsored Islamic terrorism, spread anti-semitic propaganda, and was friends with Hamas. Muslim Brotherhood fought Hamas and Al-Quaeda in the Sinai, where Mubarak ignored the threat.
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Also, a threat has to be credible. ISIS has yet to demonstrate any capability to project power beyond the Levant. Beheading journalists who blundered about in ISIS territory is not a sign that they can hit America.
Frankly, I don't care if most folk over there DIAF. The longer they hack at each other, the better.
If we do nothing, and wait long enough, the threat WILL be credible.
We did that once.
Wanna do it again?
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If we do nothing, and wait long enough, the threat WILL be credible.
We did that once.
Wanna do it again?
In fairness, I see no substantive evidence that we really are taking a different approach. This is political expediency at its most crass.
I'm torn, though I would be completely in the non-interventionist camp if we would build the effing fence already and stock the Rio Grande full of alligators with frickin' laser beams on their heads.
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In fairness, I see no substantive evidence that we really are taking a different approach. This is political expediency at its most crass.
Meh ... I guess you have a point, sorta. Obama's taken so long in getting this started I think we may very well be bombing empty buildings. Maybe bombed a janitor ...or a couple of mice.
I'm torn, though I would be completely in the non-interventionist camp if we would build the effing fence already and stock the Rio Grande full of alligators with frickin' laser beams on their heads.
I could buy into that. Walls worked for the Chinese. Why do people think it won't work here?
Alligators with lasers? I will NOT be the guy who changes the batteries .... :-* [tinfoil] :angel:
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If we do nothing, and wait long enough, the threat WILL be credible.
We did that once.
Wanna do it again?
"When you see ten problems rolling down the road, if you don't do anything, nine of them will roll into a ditch before they get to you."
----Calvin Coolidge
No, any particular threat is likely to be swamped by local forces and circumstances before it can manifest itself as a credible threat.
Tell me, why air strikes on ISIS, but not on Boko Haram? They are just as nasty as ISIS. Or how about al the organizations on this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations#Organizations_currently_officially_designated_as_terrorist_by_various_governments
In fairness, I see no substantive evidence that we really are taking a different approach. This is political expediency at its most crass.
I'm torn, though I would be completely in the non-interventionist camp if we would build the effing fence already and stock the Rio Grande full of alligators with frickin' laser beams on their heads.
Even with an effective border fence, I would not be a complete non-interventionist. I just insist that we reserve our military to act in OUR interests.
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"When you see ten problems rolling down the road, if you don't do anything, nine of them will roll into a ditch before they get to you."
----Calvin Coolidge
No, any particular threat is likely to be swamped by local forces and circumstances before it can manifest itself as a credible threat.
Tell me, why air strikes on ISIS, but not on Boko Haram? They are just as nasty as ISIS. Or how about al the organizations on this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations#Organizations_currently_officially_designated_as_terrorist_by_various_governments
Did Coolidge graduate from the same school George A. Custer did? ("Them thar iz FRIENDLY INJUNS!!") Or perhaps the same Neville Chamberlain did?
ISIS has actually killed Americans and stated their desire to hit us. Has Boko Haram? Why is it guys like you complain about us wanting to be cowboys and fix the whole world when we want to TKO the one group that wants to whack us on one day then on the next you wonder why we're not expressing some onanistic desire to blow up the entire evil world full of evildoers? ???
Even with an effective border fence, I would not be a complete non-interventionist. I just insist that we reserve our military to act in OUR interests.
And hitting ISIS is not in our interest, since they have whacked two Americans and have expressed their intent to attack the homeland?
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They killed two Americans who were essentially playing in their backyard. Wake me when they do something here in the US. Americans are murdered in 3rd world shitholes on a regular basis. We only paid attention to these guys because they're Muslim and they recorded it.
Again, doesn't it sound to you like they're trying to get us to engage them? Why would we play into their hands like that?
Chris
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Again, doesn't it sound to you like they're trying to get us to engage them? Why would we play into their hands like that?
Because we (the civilized world, rumor has it ISrael is planning to get in on this action) will win.
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Did Coolidge graduate from the same school George A. Custer did? ("Them thar iz FRIENDLY INJUNS!!") Or perhaps the same Neville Chamberlain did?
ISIS has actually killed Americans and stated their desire to hit us. Has Boko Haram? Why is it guys like you complain about us wanting to be cowboys and fix the whole world when we want to TKO the one group that wants to whack us on one day then on the next you wonder why we're not expressing some onanistic desire to blow up the entire evil world full of evildoers? ???
And hitting ISIS is not in our interest, since they have whacked two Americans and have expressed their intent to attack the homeland?
Coolidge had more sense than any 50 contemporary policritters.
"It is more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones"
----Calvin Coolidge
"They criticize me for harping on the obvious; if all the folks in the United States would do the few simple things they know they ought to do, most of our big problems would take care of themselves."
----Calvin Coolidge
Do spend some time learning about him. It will be time well rewarded. You might learn something about conservatism.
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ISIS killed two American journalists dumb enough to wander around a war zone known to have countless nutso Muslims of every stripe. If it wasn't ISIS, it might have been Assad's goons or one of the FSA factions. ISIS did not reach into America and grab them. Not impressed.
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Why is it guys like you complain about us wanting to be cowboys and fix the whole world when we want to TKO the one group that wants to whack us on one day then on the next you wonder why we're not expressing some onanistic desire to blow up the entire evil world full of evildoers? ???
Rhetorical question is rhetorical.
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I'm really torn on any military involvement now in the Middle East, in part because the involvement of the past ten years hasn't worked very well (why didn't Bush & Co do a better job of planning for after the war?), and in large part because I don't trust Obama to not make things worse. It's his trademark.
That said, ISIS has killed Americans. Whether they deserved it because they were in the enemy's back yard can be debated. I don't know if they really have the capability to reach US shores, but I'm sure they have the capability to cause trouble for us elsewhere in the world. By trouble, I mean death for Americans.
I learned something recently that is related to this debate. I knew that, in the early years of Hitler's buildup of the German military, the armies of France and Great Britain were large enough that either country could have taken on the Germans and forced Hitler to stop expanding his military. I didn't know that, when the Germans put troops along the Rhine in 1936, the officers were under orders to retreat at the first sign of the French army. The French never sent their army, though, figuring that it would provoke the Germans.
Inaction on our part will embolden ISIS. I think there's no doubt about that. The question is what their capability will be in the next few years, not what it is now.
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"It is more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones"
----Calvin Coolidge
Of course, that is no longer true.
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Of course, that is no longer true.
Yes, because we have to pass them to find out what they are about :facepalm:
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Inaction on our part will embolden ISIS. I think there's no doubt about that. The question is what their capability will be in the next few years, not what it is now.
I am not sure about this, tbh.
The raison d'etre of ISIS is that they are the representation of fundamentalist Sunni Islam; that they are the ones the Americans want to bomb, that the one that is making all the sexy Youtube videos, the ones that the Gulf States should send their money to, the ones that the Muslim communities in the West should aspire to join up with etc etc. Thats why al-Q (who previously got those recruits and that money) have fallen out with IS, why the al-Nusra front are actually fighting them etc etc. By just bombing them all you are doing is feeding into that, advertising them to the Sunni world without having the actual means to extirpate them.
Perhaps it would be better to deal with IS by not dealing with them - for instance, having the threat of IS to deal with is radically improving the standard of governance and the quality of the military in Iraq; its helping to lead to the biggest rapprochement with Iran since the revolution; its welding the Kurds into the base for the West that they should have become in the early 90s, and as long as the "Caliphate" exists as a rival entity the Saudis arent going around the world spreading their particular blend of money and fundamentalism. You also have the actual experience - the genocide, the rapes, the murders, the corruption - that many of those unfortunate to live under that regime will remember and spread around the world.
In short, if Iraq and Syria can get rid of them it will be a lot better for the West than if we do it.
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Of course, that is no longer true.
I suggest you follow the US Congress and various state houses more closely if you think that.
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I suggest you follow the US Congress and various state houses more closely if you think that.
My logic is simple:
1. A large amount of awful stuff is already law, and people are daily arrested/fined/imprisoned/badgered under it.
2. The laws that exist empower thousands of bureaucrats and busybodies to "legislate from their desk", creating literally hundreds of new regulations daily.
3. Even if no new laws were passed by any legislature ever again, these injustices would continue.
4. Positional warfare is more expensive, and incurs more casualties, than blitzkrieg/deep battle operations.
5. Therefore the goal should be not gridlock, but a succession of merciless and brutal repeals and privatizations, aimed at the schwerpunkts of the welfare/police state.
5. MERCILESSLY REPEAL AND DESTROY THE NEW DEAL.
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P.S. The perfect revolutionary must be fearless, ruthless, and shameless.
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We aren't targeting Syrian government or military targets unless "known" to house ISIS/ISIL leadership/members.
So if another country bombs our civilians that's ok?
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Do you honestly things that targeted air strikes with guided munitions on positions which are known to be held by armed enemy combatants is the same thing as indiscriminate attacks on civilians a la Dresden?
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My logic is simple:
1. A large amount of awful stuff is already law, and people are daily arrested/fined/imprisoned/badgered under it.
2. The laws that exist empower thousands of bureaucrats and busybodies to "legislate from their desk", creating literally hundreds of new regulations daily.
3. Even if no new laws were passed by any legislature ever again, these injustices would continue.
4. Positional warfare is more expensive, and incurs more casualties, than blitzkrieg/deep battle operations.
5. Therefore the goal should be not gridlock, but a succession of merciless and brutal repeals and privatizations, aimed at the schwerpunkts of the welfare/police state.
5. MERCILESSLY REPEAL AND DESTROY THE NEW DEAL.
I understand the logic and buy into it.
But liberty-minded folk are not able to execute given realities in Congress. The House has passed dozens of bills that Harry Reid never brought to the floor. Given that reality, the best one can hope for is to block bad laws. Like the immivasion amnesty bill. (Sure would have been nice to have prevented Obamacare from being passed.) Even if the supposedly conservative party gets a majority in both houses, there will still be plenty of bad laws to stop.
I would LOVE for liberty-minded folk to go on the offensive. For one thing, we need to get better at lawfare.
Do you honestly things that targeted air strikes with guided munitions on positions which are known to be held by armed enemy combatants is the same thing as indiscriminate attacks on civilians a la Dresden?
I don;t think he does. But, "targeted" does not mean "without collateral damage." Also, in many cases a much less targeted array that does quite a bit of collateral damage is useful as a pedagogical tool. Hama is remembered not only because it was bloody & destructive, but becasue it was effective.
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Not everything that is effective should be done.
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Not everything that is effective should be done.
True, but there needs to be a cost to harboring the enemy.
"The guerrilla must move amongst the people as a fish swims in the sea."
----Mao Tse Tung
"I can make this march, and I will make Georgia howl!"
----William Tecumseh Sherman
Until those enabling the enemy decide it is more painful to oppose us than to oppose the enemy, they need to hurt. Effectively, that means fewer GPS guided munitions and rattling their tea cups.
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Do you honestly things that targeted air strikes with guided munitions on positions which are known to be held by armed enemy combatants is the same thing as indiscriminate attacks on civilians a la Dresden?
Dresden wasnt an "indiscriminate attack on civilians"; you are better than this.
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Dresden wasnt an "indiscriminate attack on civilians"; you are better than this.
I am aware of the argument that the aerial bombing of Dresden was justified for a variety of reasons.
But it's clearly far more indiscriminate than modern bombing operations are, I can't see how you can dispute that.
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Germany indiscriminately bombed England, too ;)
May not have been exactly right, but I'm pretty sure there was a bit of retribution involved.
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They killed two Americans who were essentially playing in their backyard. Wake me when they do something here in the US. Americans are murdered in 3rd world shitholes on a regular basis. We only paid attention to these guys because they're Muslim and they recorded it.
Again, doesn't it sound to you like they're trying to get us to engage them? Why would we play into their hands like that?
Chris
I won't be able to if you're one of the victims ....... [tinfoil] >:D [popcorn] ;)
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Coolidge had more sense than any 50 contemporary policritters.
"It is more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones"
----Calvin Coolidge
"They criticize me for harping on the obvious; if all the folks in the United States would do the few simple things they know they ought to do, most of our big problems would take care of themselves."
----Calvin Coolidge
Do spend some time learning about him. It will be time well rewarded. You might learn something about conservatism.
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ISIS killed two American journalists dumb enough to wander around a war zone known to have countless nutso Muslims of every stripe. If it wasn't ISIS, it might have been Assad's goons or one of the FSA factions. ISIS did not reach into America and grab them. Not impressed.
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Rhetorical question is rhetorical.
And Abraham Lincoln once claimed that "all the armies of europe, asia, and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth could not by force take a drink from the Ohio (river) , or make an attack on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years."
Someone should have reminded him about the British eating lunch at the White House, then burning it down, and sending the congresscritters heading off to the hills, during the War of 1812.
I'm fairly familiar with Coolidge ...pretty certain he wasn't too cognizant of our current problems with radical Islamists. I don't think this problem will take care of itself. But you can go on pretending it will and worshipping a dead president.
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Let the Muzzies take care of their iwn problems. Every time we pick sides, arm, train obe group while bombing another always ends up in fail.
9/11 wasn't so much a terrorist success as it was an impitence of domestic safeguards. Same with the Boston Marathon bombers. Same with the attack on Ben Ghazi. In every instance, a government agency knew about and let well known terrorists into the country, or knew of an impending attack and stood down. Heck, with the Boston bombers, even the Russians were screaming to us that these guys were aholes, yet the FBI ignored the warnings.
The real enemies to America and our way of life aren't in the middle east, they are in D. C.
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Did Coolidge graduate from the same school George A. Custer did? ("Them thar iz FRIENDLY INJUNS!!") Or perhaps the same Neville Chamberlain did?
ISIS has actually killed Americans and stated their desire to hit us. Has Boko Haram? Why is it guys like you complain about us wanting to be cowboys and fix the whole world when we want to TKO the one group that wants to whack us on one day then on the next you wonder why we're not expressing some onanistic desire to blow up the entire evil world full of evildoers? ???
And hitting ISIS is not in our interest, since they have whacked two Americans and have expressed their intent to attack the homeland?
Lol. How many Americans were murdered in Chicago last weekend? How many of the murderers might have been illegals?
Surgical bombing strikes in Chicago wouldn't even violate borders of sovereign countries.
How about north korea? They've put several americans in hard labor camps for being stupid enough to cross the border. Nit only that, but the norks constantly bluster about destroying America and actually do have WMDs. If you are going to be intellectually consistant, where is your demand for bombing missions and boots on the ground in North Korea?
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I'm fairly familiar with Coolidge ...pretty certain he wasn't too cognizant of our current problems with radical Islamists. I don't think this problem will take care of itself. But you can go on pretending it will and worshipping a dead president.
I'm mighty fond of dead presidents. I like to collect them, even.
And given Coolidge's stance and action regarding immigration, I've no doubt the actions he took would be more effective at safeguarding Americans than any taken the last 30 years or so. See, if Congress had not repealed his Immigration Act of 1924 (in 1964), the 9/11 hijackers would not have been in America to bring down the twin towers. Mohammed Atta and his goat-humping buddies would have to find their way to Hell without passing through American territory.
So, some dead president pretty much had the problem solved before it was a problem. It took leftists and neo-conservatives to un-solve it and entangle us in the Forever War in the ME.
Please forgive me if I look to a time when our policritters had a lick of sense.
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I won't be able to if you're one of the victims ....... [tinfoil] >:D [popcorn] ;)
Given my proximity to DC, I'm more likely to be a victim of terrorism than you, yet I'm at much greater risk of dying in an auto accident on my way to work each morning (even when I work from home...might fall down the stairs).
There are greater threats to us here in CONUS than goat humping primitives on the other side of the planet.
Chris
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Germany indiscriminately bombed England, too ;)
May not have been exactly right, but I'm pretty sure there was a bit of retribution involved.
Again, I did not actually say what England did was a crime, or even wrong.
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Death to the Islamofascist. America strikes from the air, ISIL cowards burn. (http://www.rttnews.com/2388910/us-led-air-strikes-destroy-isil-controlled-oil-refineries-in-syria.aspx?type=gn)
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Most Wanted Terrorist in the world killed. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2767661/New-blitz-Syria-Second-night-airstrikes-jihadis-claim-wave-bombings-killed-worlds-wanted-man-mastermind-toothpaste-bomb-plot.html)
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Most Wanted Terrorist in the world killed. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2767661/New-blitz-Syria-Second-night-airstrikes-jihadis-claim-wave-bombings-killed-worlds-wanted-man-mastermind-toothpaste-bomb-plot.html)
You can tell he's a terrorist by the severe pixellation even in an obviously posed photo.
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Most Wanted Terrorist in the world killed. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2767661/New-blitz-Syria-Second-night-airstrikes-jihadis-claim-wave-bombings-killed-worlds-wanted-man-mastermind-toothpaste-bomb-plot.html)
That particular title does seem to make the rounds.
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That particular title does seem to make the rounds.
They all work for HYDRA.
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Lol. How many Americans were murdered in Chicago last weekend? How many of the murderers might have been illegals?
Surgical bombing strikes in Chicago wouldn't even violate borders of sovereign countries.
How about north korea? They've put several americans in hard labor camps for being stupid enough to cross the border. Nit only that, but the norks constantly bluster about destroying America and actually do have WMDs. If you are going to be intellectually consistant, where is your demand for bombing missions and boots on the ground in North Korea?
So we don't deal with ISIS because of the murders in Chicago? ;/
How about DEALING with the murders in Chicago because we're ignoring Boca Haram? It makes as much sense.
Pointing out all the other problems in the world is not an argument for doing nothing about ISIS.
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I'm mighty fond of dead presidents. I like to collect them, even.
And given Coolidge's stance and action regarding immigration, I've no doubt the actions he took would be more effective at safeguarding Americans than any taken the last 30 years or so. See, if Congress had not repealed his Immigration Act of 1924 (in 1964), the 9/11 hijackers would not have been in America to bring down the twin towers. Mohammed Atta and his goat-humping buddies would have to find their way to Hell without passing through American territory.
So, some dead president pretty much had the problem solved before it was a problem. It took leftists and neo-conservatives to un-solve it and entangle us in the Forever War in the ME.
Please forgive me if I look to a time when our policritters had a lick of sense.
Like going after the Barbary Pirates because they posed a danger to American shipping?
Radical Islam has already proven itself a danger to America.
And, yes, I was aware that immigration was pretty much shut down from 1924-65. If Coolidge's ghost comes back and tells me he forsaw the 9/11 attacks I will properly compliment him for his great forsight. Let's deal with the world as it is, not as we wish it to be.
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Lol. How many Americans were murdered in Chicago last weekend? How many of the murderers might have been illegals?
Surgical bombing strikes in Chicago wouldn't even violate borders of sovereign countries.
Has anyone outside of Chicago actually said they're against this?
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Wait wait wait: there are still people who believe the "fighting them over there so we don't have to over here" line? Oh man, do you think they hate us for our freedom too? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
In much the same way that Obama is the gun salesman of the year, he's also turning out to be the best recruiting tool Al Qaeda has ever had. To quote the inimitable Tam, "please don't bomb me into that briar patch."
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/09/24/al_qaeda_islamic_state_khorasan_group_jabhat_al_nusra_isis_recruiting_winners_losers
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I wonder how many Muslims on both sides of the conflict view this woman: http://mic.com/articles/99812/meet-the-badass-woman-leading-the-air-strikes-against-the-islamic-state
http://heavy.com/news/2014/09/mariam-al-mansouri-f-16-emirati-fighter-pilot-isis-islamic-state-isil-info/
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Oh man, do you think they hate us for our freedom too?
Are you imagining they don't?
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Are you imagining they don't?
The average Islamist has no idea what life in America is actually like, and does not hate us for what freedoms we have left. Aside from the freedom to not be Muslim of course. Unless you're countingour support of Israel as a freedom in which case they totall do hate us for that.
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The average Islamist has no idea what life in America is actually like, and does not hate us for what freedoms we have left. Aside from the freedom to not be Muslim of course. Unless you're countingour support of Israel as a freedom in which case they totall do hate us for that.
In my experience with people who believe in various radical anti-American ideologies (including at least one former FATAH fighter), as a matter of fact many people outside the US imagine America to be the place of total hedonistic depravity, which naturally runs counter to their interpretation of their religions/worldviews.
I am not saying other factors don't play a role but one needs to be totally blind to the mindset of anti-Americans to imagine that nobody hates America for her freedom.
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In my experience with people who believe in various radical anti-American ideologies (including at least one former FATAH fighter), as a matter of fact many people outside the US imagine America to be the place of total hedonistic depravity, which naturally runs counter to their interpretation of their religions/worldviews.
I am not saying other factors don't play a role but one needs to be totally blind to the mindset of anti-Americans to imagine that nobody hates America for her freedom.
The 9-11 hijackers sure partook of as much of our total hedonistic depravity as they could before their suicide mission :lol:
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And some of the Nazis enjoyed Jewish art. So?
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And some of the Nazis enjoyed Jewish art. So?
So - I don't care why they may hate us, as long as they leave us alone.
Your corner of the world is full of hate. It's best for the rest of us if y'all just hate each other :lol:
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America strikes from the air, more Jihadis die! (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/26/us-air-strikes-islamic-state-bases-oilfields-syria)
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Destroyed four tanks? What tanks would those be?
Stupid reporters.
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I think they captured some tanks. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/17/isis-moving-seized-us-tanks-humvees-to-syria/
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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And some stuff I was unaware of
http://www.militarytimes.com/article/20140612/NEWS08/306120062/How-did-800-ISIS-fighters-rout-2-Iraqi-divisions-
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I could buy into that. Walls worked for the Chinese. Why do people think it won't work here?
Alligators with lasers? I will NOT be the guy who changes the batteries .... :-* [tinfoil] :angel:
Yer gonna have to show me how the "wall" "worked" for China. Kinda like the Maginot Line no?
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Yer gonna have to show me how the "wall" "worked" for China. Kinda like the Maginot Line no?
Not one Kraut Panzer ever got across the Great Wall of China. Period. [tinfoil]
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Not one Kraut Panzer ever got across the Great Wall of China. Period. [tinfoil]
The manchurians did.
Nit to mention the enormous human capital and treasure squandered on it at various times
Do you seriously not know the problems with building an incomplete wall? Or are you ignorant of the reality of the great wall? For example, that its not just one
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I think they captured some tanks. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/17/isis-moving-seized-us-tanks-humvees-to-syria/
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Pretty sparse story. Still no evidence of tanks, just Humvees and light armor at most.
Did we leave any tanks behind for the Iraqis? Did they have any leftover Russian stuff that was still functional?
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Yer gonna have to show me how the "wall" "worked" for China. Kinda like the Maginot Line no?
We all realize that the Maginot Line "failing" is a myth yes?
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Pretty sparse story. Still no evidence of tanks, just Humvees and light armor at most.
Did we leave any tanks behind for the Iraqis? Did they have any leftover Russian stuff that was still functional?
There's all kinds of video on the net of Isis using tanks. They had a bunch of equipment captured from the Iraqis
The Iraqis had a lot of armor
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The manchurians did.
Nit to mention the enormous human capital and treasure squandered on it at various times
Do you seriously not know the problems with building an incomplete wall? Or are you ignorant of the reality of the great wall? For example, that its not just one
Yea, I know it's not just one, and that it wasn't built all at one time.
It also wasn't used just for defense -- it was to pay import/export duties on the Silk Highway as well.
There is nothing in life that humans do that is perfect. Part of the history of war has always been the development of newer bigger more effective weapons to kill the enemy, and, as well, the development of newer better defenses to keep the now better armed enemy at bay. It's a type of life-or-death competition.
And it generally only stops when one side is wiped out.
The tank killer was developed because of the tank....in response to the development of ICBMs we got "Star Wars" or "SDI."
And likewise the Chinese developed their Great Wall, as did the Romans build the Hadrian Wall in Great Britain. Both depended upon garrisoned troops and both would only be effective to the degree they were well manned and maintained, if that.
The French Maginot Line was an amazing system of fortifications and artillery. The Nazis would have been idiots to try to penetrate it. Thankfully the French left the Ardennes open -- building their "wall" through that was too expensive and they rationalized the Germans would also decide the Ardennes was too hard to get mechanized stuff through. This was not really so much a failure of the Maginot Line per se but a failure on the part of the French to think like the enemy would. From the German perspective tearing through the Ardennes was so much the better choice than dealing with the Maginot Line.
They SHOULD have made the Maginot line go through that forrest....would helped.
When the soviets took over East Germany they, too, built the Berlin Wall. And manned it with machineguns and troops. Some people did get through using clever, clandestine methods .... a few managed to get through by surprise, but a lot of people who tried got shot for their trouble.
We build prisons with walls around them, often complete with razor wire and guard towers. But every once in a while some evildoer sneaks into a laundry van -- or something -- and escapes.
Even Alcatraz's (an island fortress) record is not unscathed, save the very few who swam off apparently didn't get to shore .... alive.
But we still build walls.
The next time one rails against some fortification, wall, or other system because it doesn't work ... consider, when the battery in your car goes dead do you get angry and talk of what a failure the car has been over time, or do you buy a new battery and go on.
If you want perfection, look to God.
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The French Maginot Line was an amazing system of fortifications and artillery. The Nazis would have been idiots to try to penetrate it. Thankfully the French left the Ardennes open -- building their "wall" through that was too expensive and they rationalized the Germans would also decide the Ardennes was too hard to get mechanized stuff through. This was not really so much a failure of the Maginot Line per se but a failure on the part of the French to think like the enemy would. From the German perspective tearing through the Ardennes was so much the better choice than dealing with the Maginot Line.
It's more complicated than this.
The Belgians had their border with Germany defended by an array of fortifications of their own.
The French government expected that the Belgian forts would last long enough they'd be able to maneuver an armored force into position to stop the Germans.
Not only did this fail (because German fort-capturing tactics were better than anyone ever expected), but there was a worse failure:
The French military spirit, sapped by the experience of WW1, was not up for a new fight. There were literal peace protesters blocking runways on bomber bases so planes could not operate.
No amount of fortifications will protect a country whose spirit has already failed.
(That said, later in the war the Allies managed to organize a French army of over a million strong, so I guess they learned their lesson.)
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There were literal peace protesters blocking runways on bomber bases so planes could not operate.
I'd never heard that before. One would think the .mil would shoot the traitors and drag their hippie corpses off the runway.
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Meanwhile, Syria's government is supportive of US operations in Syria:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ap-interview-syria-us-airstrikes-25842098
But on Monday he denied saying that coordination was necessary, adding that Damascus was satisfied with simply being informed of any U.S.-led action, which he said the Obama administration did before the start last week of the aerial campaign in Syria.
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I'd never heard that before. One would think the .mil would shoot the traitors and drag their hippie corpses off the runway.
I imagine that defeatist attitude was active in the leadership also. Leadership is critical whether you are defending fortifications or operating field armies.
On the other side, the Germans had some good commanders and highly motivated and trained troops. They took a lot of casualties taking those Belgian fortifications not to mention in other campaigns.
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I'd never heard that before. One would think the .mil would shoot the traitors and drag their hippie corpses off the runway.
It's the French; they surrendered to the protesters.