Author Topic: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)  (Read 14873 times)

longeyes

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,405
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2012, 10:10:27 AM »
No police officer needs to have an "automatic" weapon with "a huge clip" designed "only to kill people."   I know I heard this irrefutable logic somewhere...

I think we now have empirical proof. 
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2012, 11:02:03 AM »
Allowing Police to arm themselves with military grade assault weapons will only lead to more innocents being maimed and killed! No honest cop needs more than 10 rounds!

TommyGunn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,956
  • Stuck in full auto since birth.
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2012, 11:32:56 AM »
http://us.foxnews.mobi/quickPage.html?page=26048&content=78766507&pageNum=-1


Quote from: Eugene O'Donnell, in linked story
He said officers are trained to fire only as a last resort and must fire multiple shots because only one in five generally hit the intended target.
:facepalm: Wha----? ?  
All I can say is WOW.  
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,273
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2012, 11:40:05 AM »
It kind of reads like *all* of the injuries except the original victim were caused by the police.

Correct. And while, as expected, Bloomberg is trying to use the incident to complain about all those guns out there, he is putting a very different "spin" on the fact that his cops obviously panicked and just started spraying bullets:

Quote
Bloomberg said: "We all use the word 'hero' – he [referring to the construction worker] did what he should have done." The mayor added: "He saw something, he said something" – the phrase has become the backbone of efforts to get New York residents to be vigilant ever since the September 11 attacks. The actions of both the worker and police officers may have prevented further injuries, Bloomberg and Kelly said.

So hizzoner thinks shooting NINE passersby "may have prevented further injuries"? Methinks hizzoner needs a reality check.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,273
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2012, 11:41:10 AM »
No police officer needs to have an "automatic" weapon with "a huge clip" designed "only to kill people."   I know I heard this irrefutable logic somewhere...

I think we now have empirical proof. 

Where can I get one of these people-killing clips? My guns need bullets to do that ...
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,273
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2012, 12:33:02 PM »
take a look

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/dramatic-surveillance-footage-shows-police-fatally-shooting-empire-state-building-shooter-graphic/

Well, it's not a great video but what I saw appears to strongly contradict Commissioner Kelly's statement that the officers had a gun "right in their face." I don't even see the gunman in the video, he's off-screen somewhere to the right (of the screen). I want to know how the cops managed to hit the woman standing at the left of the screen, who was well to the right of the officer who remained in view throughout.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 01:44:02 PM by Hawkmoon »
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2012, 12:46:03 PM »
Gunman's. Walking along curb city shooting gets weird lots of ricochet and fragments. Also someone down is not always hit. Folk just drop
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2012, 01:12:18 PM »
Another link to the video: http://youtu.be/L8eCYhGkT_o

Cop on the right is one-handing it while scooting away.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,273
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2012, 01:45:14 PM »
Gunman's. Walking along curb city shooting gets weird lots of ricochet and fragments. Also someone down is not always hit. Folk just drop

He didn't fire a shot.

He had a pistol that held seven rounds. He fired five at his victim, the police cleared one from the chamber when they recovered the gun, and there was one round still in the magazine.

However -- viewing the video at full screen I now see that the person I thought was a bystander was, in fact, the perp himself. At that distance, if the cops fired 16 shots I would expect that at least fifteen of them should have been on target.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 01:48:29 PM by Hawkmoon »
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,972
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2012, 01:48:35 PM »
Another link to the video: http://youtu.be/L8eCYhGkT_o

Cop on the right is one-handing it while scooting away.

If NYPD does end up backing these guys, that means that NYPD supports ANY shooting where officers perform multiple round one-handed shooting scenarios at 30 foot and greater distances.

30 foot... one handed... rapid fire (~3-4 shots per second).

That's so... professional. :facepalm:

I understand 1 or 2 shots with that technique, inside of 20 feet.  Standard Tueller / get off the X tactic.  But  the officer GAINED DISTANCE with no additional aggression from the shooter.  He could have transitioned to two-handed shooting, actually using the sights (at least the fracking FRONT SIGHT), and increased his hit rate as he approached 40 feet.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 01:53:15 PM by AZRedhawk44 »
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2012, 02:11:12 PM »
Little more detail on the bystander injuries.


Quote
New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said all nine bystanders wounded in Friday's Empire State Building shooting had been hit with police gunfire, CNN reported Saturday morning.

According to Kelly, of the nine wounded, three suffered gunshot wounds and six were hit by fragments.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/25/empire-state-building-shooting-nypd-bullets-shot-all-nine_n_1830007.html


I'm surprised they were willingly to admit this so quickly. Is that the sound of a bus approaching?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 02:17:03 PM by kgbsquirrel »

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2012, 02:51:28 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/25/empire-state-building-shooting-nypd-bullets-shot-all-nine_n_1830007.html


I'm surprised they were willingly to admit this so quickly. Is that the sound of a bus approaching?

Press release on a Saturday?.....it'll be a rather small bus....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

kgbsquirrel

  • APS Photoshop God
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,466
  • Bill, slayer of threads.
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2012, 03:03:29 PM »
Press release on a Saturday?.....it'll be a rather small bus....


Fair point. To me it sounded like a preparatory to slamming the responding officers with the sole onus of the whole thing. Apparently one of the officers in the shooting is already at odds with the city for blowing the whistle on their quota scheme which also lent me to believe they'd be more than happy to help him under the Greyhound.

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2012, 04:50:41 PM »
Quote
If bullets fired by police or fragments struck civilians, then the officers were also lucky to be alive, since bullets could have boomeranged in their direction, said Eugene O'Donnell, a professor of police studies at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice.

That makes my brain bleed :facepalm:
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,273
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2012, 04:58:08 PM »
I understand 1 or 2 shots with that technique, inside of 20 feet.  Standard Tueller / get off the X tactic.  But  the officer GAINED DISTANCE with no additional aggression from the shooter.  He could have transitioned to two-handed shooting, actually using the sights (at least the fracking FRONT SIGHT), and increased his hit rate as he approached 40 feet.

That would be the officer on the (screen) right. The officer on the (screen) left, who was closer to the shooter, was firing two-handed. I'd estimate that he was maybe eight feet away when he started shooting, and probably six feet away when the shooter fell to the ground.

The second oficer, the one who moved toward screen right, increased his distance from the shooter but he never approached 40 feet away, or even 30 feet. Maybe 20 feet by the end of the active shooting.

Even with that, the two cops together managed to put 3 rounds in the shooter and 13 rounds ... elsewhere. That's an 18.75 percent hit rate, which is rather abysmal. The closer guy should have put all of however may round he fired into the target.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Unisaw

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,417
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2012, 04:58:17 PM »
That makes my brain bleed :facepalm:

 :facepalm: In other words, the police officers are lucky they didn't shoot themselves!  :facepalm:
Well, if you have the sudden urge to lick your balls you'll know you got the veterinary version... K Frame

TechMan

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,562
  • Yes, your moderation has been outsourced.
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2012, 05:06:26 PM »
That makes my brain bleed :facepalm:

RKL  it's true, see Hollywood says it can be done so it has to be true.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_p9VIBYo1E
Quote
Hawkmoon - Never underestimate another person's capacity for stupidity. Any time you think someone can't possibly be that dumb ... they'll prove you wrong.

Bacon and Eggs - A day's work for a chicken; A lifetime commitment for a pig.
Stupidity will always be its own reward.
Bad decisions make good stories.

Quote
Viking - The problem with the modern world is that there aren't really any predators eating stupid people.

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,915
  • A more Elegant Monkey for a more civilized Forum.
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2012, 05:23:57 PM »
:facepalm: In other words, the police officers are lucky they didn't shoot themselves!  :facepalm:

Would have been better than shooting innocent folk
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,972
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2012, 06:12:58 PM »
That would be the officer on the (screen) right. The officer on the (screen) left, who was closer to the shooter, was firing two-handed. I'd estimate that he was maybe eight feet away when he started shooting, and probably six feet away when the shooter fell to the ground.

The second oficer, the one who moved toward screen right, increased his distance from the shooter but he never approached 40 feet away, or even 30 feet. Maybe 20 feet by the end of the active shooting.

Even with that, the two cops together managed to put 3 rounds in the shooter and 13 rounds ... elsewhere. That's an 18.75 percent hit rate, which is rather abysmal. The closer guy should have put all of however may round he fired into the target.

People hunch over when going into combat stances, and I think a fair estimate of height to be about 5 feet, give or take a few inches.

The planters on the sidewalk are about 3 feet in diameter.

The left officer is 2 body lengths away from the shooter, so about 10 feet.  Also confirmed by being about 3 planters distant.

The right officer starts out at least 3 body lengths away, maybe even 4.  He's at least 2 planter-diameters further back than his partner, maybe even 3.  He then bee-lines at a right angle away from the shooter and his partner, 3 body lengths sideways.  a^2 + b^2 = c^2 in a right triangle, so 16 + 9 = 25.  sqrt(25) = 5.  A classic 3-4-5 triangle.  5 body lengths, so 25 feet or so. 

So, maybe not 40 feet like I initially suggested.  But well over 20 and maybe closer to 30.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

slingshot

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,031
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2012, 07:03:37 PM »
Bloomberg should get into some hot water over this police shooting in his city.  They may have done more harm than good as the shooter was not being aggressive until pushed into action.
It shall be as it was in the past... Not with dreams, but with strength and with courage... Shall a nation be molded to last. (The Plainsman, 1936)

longeyes

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,405
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2012, 07:20:14 PM »
Bring back those .38 six-shooters.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

Waitone

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,133
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2012, 07:43:03 PM »
Interesting blog run by an retired Special Forces weapons man (MOS 18b).  He estimates engagement distance at under 3 paces.
http://weaponsman.com/?p=4541
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
- Charles Mackay, Scottish journalist, circa 1841

"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it." - John Lennon

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2012, 07:50:29 PM »
Bring back those .38 six-shooters.

With one bullet in the shirt pocket  :P
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Jamie B

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,866
  • I am Abynormal
Re: ...and again, and again... (Empire State Building Shooting)
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2012, 08:04:57 PM »
Bloomberg should get into some hot water over this police shooting in his city.  They may have done more harm than good as the shooter was not being aggressive until pushed into action.
I can only hope.

I am sure that he will find a way to put an anti-gun spin on this, though.
Greatness lies not in being strong, but in the right use of strength - Henry Ward Beecher

The Almighty tells me He can get me out of this mess, but He’s pretty sure you’re f**ked! - Stephen